Bitcoin Forum

https://mtgox.com/press_release_20120518.html (https://mtgox.com/press_release_20120518.html)

Dear Mt.Gox users,

Following the announcement this week from Dwolla regarding a change in their user policy, we are now obliged to institute a new AML policy when it comes to either deposit or withdraw funds when using Dwolla. This new AML goal is to make sure that we are in total conformity with Dwolla’s requirements when it comes to transferring funds. This in order to expedite transactions between our two companies.

Effective from Friday 25th of May, any user using Dwolla via Mt.Gox will be required to own a Verified account.

How do I become Verified?
"Verified" status can be obtained by any Mt.Gox user by submitting a copy of government issued photographic identification documentation and proof of residence (utility bill, etc.) documentation via our dedicated interface.

To submit documents you will need to log into your Mt.Gox account, go to "Settings" by clicking on your username in the top-left of the page and then click on “Get Verified.” Once the proper documentation has been submitted the process will in general take a maximum of two business days.

A Verified account also gives you the following advantages :
Being “Verified” allows for the following withdrawal limits: A maximum monthly withdrawal of $50,000 USD (or equivalent) capped to a maximum of $10,000 USD per 24 hrs and a 4,000 BTC withdrawal per 24 hrs without any monthly limit.

We sincerely apologize for the inconvenience this will cause our North American customers, and are working with Dwolla to reduce the impact of their AML processes on Mt.Gox users.

Regards,
Mt.Gox Co. Ltd Team.

Media Contacts
press@mtgox.com

That part was a little confusing the first time I read it.  You mean a Mt. Gox Verified account (versus doing verifications on Dwolla).

Gox, do you plan to offer an alternate withdrawal service in the near future?

Sorry for the confusion.  If you already have a verified account, you will not have to submit AML documents for verification to use Dwolla anymore.  Only accounts without a "Verified" or "Trusted" statuses will be required to become verified should they still wish to use Dwolla.  If you have any other questions, please feel free to contact the Mt.Gox Support at https://support.mtgox.com/home

We are working on this, and may have something in June (still waiting for contract to be signed, so can't make promises at this point).

"Trusted"?  What is trusted status?  Prefer something on Mt.Gox site.

Does this affect deposits, withdrawals, or both?

Means Verified using Notary / Apostille for ID Verification.



 - http://support.mtgox.com/entries/20919111-aml-account-statuses
 - http://support.mtgox.com/entries/20251501-aml-request-increase-transaction-limits
 - http://support.mtgox.com/entries/20861901-changes-to-aml-policies

Hello,

It would apply to both deposits and withdrawals. 

Tux, when will you guys just make it easier for everyone and offer your own in-house solution for us to simply be able to access our funds via mtgox prepaid debitcard. If the rates are reasonable loading onto the card or swiping directly, you will cancel out a ton of these extra withdrawal methods.

Withdrawls to a prepaid debit card would certainly be possible but even if Gox co-branded a prepaid debit card they are still subject to the issuers rules and the network agreement (rules including things like chargebacks).  I just don't see reversible payments ever being used for irreversible goods except maybe for token amounts.

Im sure if GOX can get cards that is linked directly to user balances they could setup an agreement of no chargebacks ie. they could put limitations on the card which mainly could be restricted to ATM withdrawal/swiping only and no online purchases.

Removing online purchases would make the risk on such a card service drop dramaticly.

I dont know the process for this but I am fairly confident that if they wanted to offer this it would definitely be doable. I dont see how this is any more risky than the dwolla chargebacks they allready incur from scammers.

Lastly, perhaps they could offer the card solution to regular medium to high volume users(verified of course), they have far less if not 0% risk associated to users who have consistently traded on MTGOX with a track record and medium to high volume BTC/USD available.

I think you misunderstood what you were saying.  No need to restrict online purchases.  The card issuer doesn't pay the chargeback cost/loss the e-store accept it does.  I thought you meant a method to both withdrawal & fund the account.  If used to simply "spend the balance" there would be minimal risk.

Yep, Im looking at it as a method to get funds out with few as possible intermediate exchanges. Take me for example I need to jump through 5 exchanges right now to get funds out and it cost me 10% in fees right now combining every exchange which is simply unacceptable for the volume I am doing.

If a direct card could be used there would only be the normal foreign exchange fee from USD to my currency which is between 1.8-2.5% charged by card issuer(mastercard/visa) and then on top of that MTGOX shouldnt have to charge a fee since they know allready the medium to large account holders trading volume fees add up more than enough for them.

I was thinking this could be a fee free service for medium to high volume users and perhaps a small percentage/fix fee for low to next-to-nothing volume users.

The luxury of bitcoin fades away slowly when you start to look at fees involved to actually get your funds in your local currency, since mostly everyone still need to pay their local bills in their local currency its very important to atleast get as much out of your BTC exchange as possible.

So we're all on board wit this verification process, right?

We're not thinking this was just the longest scam in the world to obtain our driver's license & utility bills?

What's the most damage someone could do that information anyway?

Anyone care to field that question?

There as several solutions that we are working on in order to make your life easier. I am not saying that we will offer what you suggest, but we are exploring every possibilities reduce drastically fees involved in the process as well as being able for you, all of you, to easily cash-in and cash-out. I sincerely hope that we will see such solution available before the end of June.

Regards

That's more like it. ^^

But in all seriousness, thanks Gox.

Has anybody sent in their DL and a utility bill to make a Dwolla withdrawal since May 25th?  I'm somewhat wary of sending my personal info to Mt. Gox (What will happen to my info after the fact).

We're working on a solution right now to enable customers of MtGox to get a check, wire, or local ACH withdrawal.

Instead of having to upload your ID to us, you will be able to do instant AML verification via new technology we've licensed.

You will be able to securely be verified without having to upload a copy of your ID from the comfort of your living room.

In the meantime, we fully trust MtGox in their AML efforts. Within the coming week, we will probably be required to do the same for Dwolla deposits.

For this reason, we are finishing up our alternative.

More news to come soon.

Bummer,

I'm also pretty leery of uploading my license or passport info. Guess I may just wait awhile to see what alternatives arise. Thanks for the info.

Hmm...isn't this why many folks got into bitcoin in the first place? To get away from these stupid currencies and the strings attached? Just sayin'.

More reason to develop your own independent network of trusted trading partners so you can stay "off exchange".

Awesome!

Just got an e-mail from Dwolla "We need to verify your identity!":
 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=84108.0

Damn Dwolla!

Hang in there boys, we're working as fast as possible

Me too, and I didn't even use an exchange!

Fucking hell.

This is bullshit.

I was not notified of this new policy properly. I never read this thread until today. Nowhere on several Mt. Gox pages that I checked JUST NOW indicated this new policy. All of these pages have been printed out with date and time marked as proof.

Yesterday I sent $100 Dwolla Instant to Mt. Gox. It didn't show up in several hours so I opened a ticket. These stupid dense morons keep parroting the same press release URL in every ticket reply.

EXCEPT NOWHERE IN THE NORMAL COURSE OF LOGGING IN AND INITIATING A DWOLLA DEPOSIT, IS THIS POLICY MENTIONED.

They are refusing to even REFUND/REJECT the payment without these so called "AML" documents. It looks like I will just completely abandon my Dwolla account after sending them a long explanation as to why I am doing this without repayment of the instant balance, including blocking any attempts of them to withdrawal from my bank account.

By this point it is not so much even the requirements of the documents WERE I NOTIFIED BEFORE MAKING A DEPOSIT. Now it's a matter of principal. I don't put up with bait and switch bullshit.

Mt. Gox needs to make this right. Users were NOT PROPERLY NOTIFIED. A large, prominent notice on the page with Dwolla deposit information should have been there 2 weeks ago. My dated printout of this page proves the policy is not mentioned WHATSOEVER.

EDIT: Not to mention Dwolla essentially offers me CREDIT without so much information as Mt. Gox is wanting. I got a $3500 BarclayCard last week without so much information as Mt. Gox is wanting.

BitCoin is becoming less and less useful with stuff like this. I used to be able to get my measly $35/month mining profits out via Dwolla. Now I can't even do that and due to my location here it's impossible to get "Verified". No utility bills in my name.

With these constant changes in policy BitCoin has become a circus act that I'm no longer interested in watching. I'll be selling off my small mining gear and leaving it all behind.

Mt Gox is no longer replying to my tickets. I call boycott.

Well, Bitcoin doesn't exist for just for providing a revenue stream for miners, it exists to be a payment system that solves the exact problem that is causing you frustration.

Dwolla may be out of the picture for you, but there are other options.  CampBX and BitFloor both allow ACH withdrawal.  BitInstant is going to be adding that at some point in the future. 

There are other methods for cashing out.

 - http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Selling_bitcoins
 - http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade

It appears I do not have a verified account at MTGOX.
Yet when I goto the withdraw funds area, select my newly created withdraw method of "dwolla" which I did last week,
it still seems to allow it to function.

Yet I imagine if I tried to use it my funds would be stuck in some sort of limbo?

I do not read these forums as much as I used to yet I cannot seem to find mention of this
change on mtgox.com. Nor does the home page of support.mtgox.com seem to mention it.
The last update on that page is Apr 27th, 2012.

I guess I could upload my photo ID but I would rather not. What annoys me more is that
if I did not read this thread I would never have known. Sigh.

The "must have a verified Mt. Gox account" requirement newly imposed by Mt. Gox  is for transferring funds from Dwolla to Mt. Gox.  They also might require an account to be verified for other reasons, including from where you've accessed the exchange (e.g., using Tor or a shared, public access point), amount of the transfer (e.g., over $1K USD in a single day or monthly limits being hit). 

Even if you do enter a withdrawal order, Mt. Gox is not able to accommodate demand for withdrawals, so before they will actually do the Dwolla Account to Account (A2A) transfer, there will be a delay of like 6 days.  And then, it now appears that Dwolla will not allow you to withdraw to your bank (or any other transaction) until you've verified your Dwolla account as they too now seem to be requiring photo ID.

tl;dr: There are more convenient options out there.   Both BitFloor and CampBX will do ACH withdrawals direct to your bank.  BitInstant will be offering that soon as well.

Interest post. Thanks. I read the first post of this thread to mean dwolla to mtgox OR mtgox to dwolla.
I do not mind the delay. I am pretty used to it "now days".
As for dwolla requiring ID to withdraw to my bank account.. i did a withdraw just last week and it arrived fine.
How do I verify if I require dwolla verificiation? Is not proving I own the checking account enough with them when I first started up?

Confusing to say the least. Dwolla's web interface just keeps getting worse to boot. Social crap all over it now.

Over the last few weeks, it's been consistently cheaper to buy bitcoins from either bitfloor or campbx.  I expect this situation will persist due to the difficulty of getting dollars out of mtgox (people will demand a premium for selling bitcoins at mtgox).

You won't know until you get a "happy email from Dwolla" (search forum for Dwolla AML email).  If you hit some magic amount from certain counterparties then Dwolla will indicate you need to perform verification (photo ID).

Here's the message that they're sending out.  After being flagged, a photo ID is required to get verified.

 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=84108.0


That is what appears to be common denominator ... accepting Dwolla from exchanges or other bitcoiners will make it more likely that you will get flagged.  Dwolla is less aggressive for smaller amounts (e.g., under a couple hundred perhaps)?

Thanks folks for the info. I normally stay under 150 dollars so perhaps that is why I am
not getting nailed with the email yet. I am pretty consistent about my transfers too due
to mining. Good to know.

This seems to confuse a lot of people.  When you first open an account with any kind of financial services provider, your risk level is assessed.  The extent to which you're required to verify at the outset depends on that initial assessment.  So, yeah - verifying that you control the account from which funds originate might be enough for you to successfully open an account with a payment processor (all that is meant to prove is that you're not funding your new account through unauthorised access to someone else's account) - although it's rarely sufficient for you to open an account with a bank or a credit union.

Your risk level isn't a static thing, though.  It can change with how you use the account and Ongoing Customer Due Diligence and Enhanced Know Your Customer requirements mean that if the way you use the account indicates an increased fraud/AML/CFT risk a financial service provider is required to obtain more information about you, the source of your funds, and the destination of your funds.  There are many types of transactions which increase the risk level of a given account and what makes them high risk might not be your personal actions but the nature of the businesses with which you're dealing, the geographic source or destination of funds, and a heap of other things which flag a transaction as "suspicious".

Some institutions require a higher level of verification from everyone when opening an account so that they're not constantly having to suspend accounts all the time, but even if you have fully verified at a high level you can be asked to do so again at any time.

Because Bitcoin exchanges and payment processors move large amounts of funds through the banking system and operate a service which is inherently high risk in terms of fraud, money laundering, and terrorism financing, financial institutions impose on them strict KYC requirements.  While they could use financial institutions in countries which are less AML/CFT compliant, that carries its own risks and would also likely slow down the processing of payments - it would work only if those funds never need to be returned to the financial systems of more compliant countries.

Since I used Dwolla instant, no money was actually taken from my checking, I have instructed the bank to deny ALL Dwolla withdrawal attempts for 6 months. I WILL NOT BE RIPPED OFF $100 AND I DONT CARE WHO LOSES.

If anyone wants to trade with me PayPal, BofA, PopMoney, or MoneyPak for $100 worth of bitcoins please send a PM to me.

PM sent.

In the short term this seems to be good news for CampBX. AFAIK they don't have any such restrictions on withdrawals, can anyone confirm?

This was an attempt to make a deposit BTW, into Mt. Gox to purchase additional coins to supplement my small mining farm. I sent them $100 via Dwolla. Because they did NOT PROPERLY NOTIFY ME of the new changes, they have kept the $100 payment in limbo until I send them a picture of my penis and whatever other invasive bullshit they're demanding.

Essentially THEY HAVE STOLEN $100. Because it was Dwolla Instant Payment, which I qualified for due to good credit score, and Dwolla refuse to dispute the transaction because it is for "virtual currency", I told my bank to block any attempts of Dwolla to withdrawal from my account, and essentially told Dwolla if they want paid they need to reverse from Mt. Gox, because I will not be screwed out of my hard earned money.

So I did not actually lose any money but I can't use Mt Gox or Dwolla any more :(

Dwolla reverses instant payments all the time.  If I was going to accept Dwolla instant payments from a customer, I'd want to know more about them too before I allowed them to trade.

Show them the middle finger. If you do business seriously and without scamming you should be able to buy all your Bitcoins privately here on the forum without huge markups.
I never bought Bitcoins on an exchange and never paid more than current market value when buying in the forum.

Honestly, more people need to explore this option.  AML/CFT/KYC requirements are only going to get tougher and bring more services under their regulations (even non-financial service providers such as jewellers have been added to the list here). 

You failed to mention that even if you already have a verified account, you will still not be able to withdraw funds through Dwolla until Mt. Gox finally gets around to validating your withdrawal method.

I have a verified account, but am waiting for the Dwolla withdrawal method validation.

I'm stuck in Mt. Gox weekend hell. Waiting and waiting and waiting...

Victory!

Maybe because of this post, or maybe because of all the sexually laden expletive replies I've made to their copy and paste replies to my tickets, $100 USD showed up on my account today. This was immediately converted to BTC and withdrawn.

The block on Dwolla ACH transfers has been removed and they will be paid as per terms but I'll be leaving the instant program.

Further trades will be conducted here as I have yet to have a problem. However I now have too much BTC for the purchased I wanted to make so I won't be trading for a while.

Hello,

We are happy to hear that things have worked out for you.  Please be advised that your Mt.Gox account will have to be verified should you wish to use Dwolla for transfers including withdrawals in the future.  Thank you for your kind understanding in this matter.