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RitzBitzz
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May 15, 2015, 10:45:14 PM
 #301

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For sure your four border states are not going to vote weed legal, because of the horrific power it'd give the Mexican cartels to move right into the USA.  But all power to DC, Colorado, etc...

Can I question that? It seems to me that if one of those states legalized pot, the primary loser would be the Mexican cartels. The illegal status of MJ is essential for their survival. If I were a drug lord I would donate millions to any candidate that will fight to keep MJ illegal. It would be a disaster if people could grow their own.

Okay, let me translate that.  Lower PRICES for weed would be a proportional loss for the cartels.

But aren't we seeing, not lower but higher prices?  That's what I read at least about legal weed in Colorado. 

And believe me, you do not want these cartel gangsters positioning themselves at the borders of say, Texas and Arizona....this has nothing to do with weed being legal or illegal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War

By the end of Felipe Calderón's administration (2006–12), the official death toll of the Mexican Drug War was at least 60,000.[79] Estimates set the death toll above 120,000 killed by 2013, not including 27,000 missing.[80][81]


No, there is near universal agreement that the black market is what elevates price. It was true with alcohol prohibition and it's the same with drugs. The illegality makes it profitable for those who are willing to take the risk, or have the firepower to be untouchable.

The price could go up though if the state or federal government is taxing it enough.
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May 16, 2015, 12:23:27 AM
 #302

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For sure your four border states are not going to vote weed legal, because of the horrific power it'd give the Mexican cartels to move right into the USA.  But all power to DC, Colorado, etc...

Can I question that? It seems to me that if one of those states legalized pot, the primary loser would be the Mexican cartels. The illegal status of MJ is essential for their survival. If I were a drug lord I would donate millions to any candidate that will fight to keep MJ illegal. It would be a disaster if people could grow their own.

Okay, let me translate that.  Lower PRICES for weed would be a proportional loss for the cartels.

But aren't we seeing, not lower but higher prices?  That's what I read at least about legal weed in Colorado. 

And believe me, you do not want these cartel gangsters positioning themselves at the borders of say, Texas and Arizona....this has nothing to do with weed being legal or illegal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War

By the end of Felipe Calderón's administration (2006–12), the official death toll of the Mexican Drug War was at least 60,000.[79] Estimates set the death toll above 120,000 killed by 2013, not including 27,000 missing.[80][81]


No, there is near universal agreement that the black market is what elevates price. It was true with alcohol prohibition and it's the same with drugs. The illegality makes it profitable for those who are willing to take the risk, or have the firepower to be untouchable.

The price could go up though if the state or federal government is taxing it enough.
Seems like I mentioned that earlier, but the legal price in Colorado is several times the illegal street price.  I don't live there and don't know the specifics ... and I don't use weed anyway, but it is quite interesting.
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May 16, 2015, 01:47:06 AM
 #303

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For sure your four border states are not going to vote weed legal, because of the horrific power it'd give the Mexican cartels to move right into the USA.  But all power to DC, Colorado, etc...

Can I question that? It seems to me that if one of those states legalized pot, the primary loser would be the Mexican cartels. The illegal status of MJ is essential for their survival. If I were a drug lord I would donate millions to any candidate that will fight to keep MJ illegal. It would be a disaster if people could grow their own.

Okay, let me translate that.  Lower PRICES for weed would be a proportional loss for the cartels.

But aren't we seeing, not lower but higher prices?  That's what I read at least about legal weed in Colorado. 

And believe me, you do not want these cartel gangsters positioning themselves at the borders of say, Texas and Arizona....this has nothing to do with weed being legal or illegal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War

By the end of Felipe Calderón's administration (2006–12), the official death toll of the Mexican Drug War was at least 60,000.[79] Estimates set the death toll above 120,000 killed by 2013, not including 27,000 missing.[80][81]


No, there is near universal agreement that the black market is what elevates price. It was true with alcohol prohibition and it's the same with drugs. The illegality makes it profitable for those who are willing to take the risk, or have the firepower to be untouchable.

The price could go up though if the state or federal government is taxing it enough.
Seems like I mentioned that earlier, but the legal price in Colorado is several times the illegal street price.  I don't live there and don't know the specifics ... and I don't use weed anyway, but it is quite interesting.

Oh sorry id didn't read all of these post since the thread is so big. I believe that making it legal would hurt cartels but my point is the price could be more costly due to regulations and the grower making superior quality weed.
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May 16, 2015, 02:00:27 AM
 #304

Honestly I don't think you can look at the mexican drug-war tolls without taking into account the fact that mexico has been basically forced to take an absolute hardline on it by the USA. 

Left to themselves I think Mexico would probably have tried to find a different way besides committing the huge investment of lives that keep escalating the drug war.  But the US wants to stop drugs from coming over its own southern border by making Mexico take more loss of life for the sake of drug enforcement than the US is willing to.  The drug war in Mexico has largely been a proxy war fought with US money and Mexican lives, driven by pressure from the US. 

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May 16, 2015, 03:57:45 AM
 #305

Honestly I don't think you can look at the mexican drug-war tolls without taking into account the fact that mexico has been basically forced to take an absolute hardline on it by the USA. 

Left to themselves I think Mexico would probably have tried to find a different way besides committing the huge investment of lives that keep escalating the drug war.  But the US wants to stop drugs from coming over its own southern border by making Mexico take more loss of life for the sake of drug enforcement than the US is willing to.  The drug war in Mexico has largely been a proxy war fought with US money and Mexican lives, driven by pressure from the US. 


First of all, I understand that Mexico legalized personal weed use some time ago.  But there was something about that being due to police using the law to nab American citizens and exhort money from them.

Regardless, it isn't a proxy war.  Because it's a war between cartels.  Not police/federalis vs the gangsters.

The killing seems fairly indiscriminate.  Maybe to create an atmosphere of terror or something like that.
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May 16, 2015, 05:19:48 AM
 #306

Honestly I don't think you can look at the mexican drug-war tolls without taking into account the fact that mexico has been basically forced to take an absolute hardline on it by the USA.

May be. But without the American support, the Mexican government won't be able to exert its control over large parts of Northern Mexico. That said, the cartels themselves get their money and weapons from various Hispanic gangs operating within the United States. The Mexican drug war is a war which is being waged in Mexico, which has nothing to do with the country itself.
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May 16, 2015, 01:32:06 PM
 #307

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For sure your four border states are not going to vote weed legal, because of the horrific power it'd give the Mexican cartels to move right into the USA.  But all power to DC, Colorado, etc...

Can I question that? It seems to me that if one of those states legalized pot, the primary loser would be the Mexican cartels. The illegal status of MJ is essential for their survival. If I were a drug lord I would donate millions to any candidate that will fight to keep MJ illegal. It would be a disaster if people could grow their own.

Okay, let me translate that.  Lower PRICES for weed would be a proportional loss for the cartels.

But aren't we seeing, not lower but higher prices?  That's what I read at least about legal weed in Colorado.  

And believe me, you do not want these cartel gangsters positioning themselves at the borders of say, Texas and Arizona....this has nothing to do with weed being legal or illegal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War

By the end of Felipe Calderón's administration (2006–12), the official death toll of the Mexican Drug War was at least 60,000.[79] Estimates set the death toll above 120,000 killed by 2013, not including 27,000 missing.[80][81]


No, there is near universal agreement that the black market is what elevates price. It was true with alcohol prohibition and it's the same with drugs. The illegality makes it profitable for those who are willing to take the risk, or have the firepower to be untouchable.

It is not the illegality, but the level of enforcement of those laws which creates high prices.

For example I once say a whole row of tables - maybe 25 - right across the street from the courthouse in Capestown, S Africa.  I asked one of the guys selling weed - "Dakka" was it legal.  He laughed and said "Oh, no, man.  But the police are busy with important things like murder and rape.  They don't care."

This would not have been a case where the "fact of illegality" affected price.  Or maybe just to the degree that some payoffs were involved.

Tomato, tomahto. It's the same difference. The point is prohibition gives cartels their power. They lose power and the incentive for violence when it's legal, the same way bootleggers did when prohibition ended. As for whether legalization increases or decreases price could go either way. Legalization could increase demand to the point where the price is higher than it was when it's illegal. I couldn't care less about this, market price has no bearing on whether it should be legal.

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