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Author Topic: How Satoshidice is/can launder coins  (Read 3363 times)
mjosephs (OP)
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April 01, 2013, 01:05:42 AM
 #1

I keep seeing people say "SatoshiDice can't be involved in laundering coins because every payout transaction is linked to the bet".  Yeah, so what?

Here's how they could/are launder coins very easily: laundry customer creates two wallets, puts one clean BTC in one wallet and 1,000 dirty BTC in the other.  The customer then signs a huge pile of bet transactions from both of these wallets but does not release them into the network; instead they send the transactions to SatoshiDice out-of-band.

Since SatoshiDice knows the day's secret, it knows which of these bets are winning bets and which aren't.  It then releases into the network some subset of the bets such that the customer's net profit is zero (before fees), but such that all the losing bets come from the dirty wallet and all the winning bets come from the clean wallet.

The customer then spends the money out of the clean wallet so SatoshiDice can't use the unreleased transactions.

If SatoshiDice isn't doing this already, they ought to.  It would be immensely profitable.  Almost as profitable as they claim running a betting website is!

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XXthetimeisnowXX
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April 01, 2013, 01:10:51 AM
 #2

I don't know much about this satoshidice game but is it good or bad to be on tor when you do it? leagal?
magicfreak32
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April 01, 2013, 01:16:53 AM
 #3

SatoshiDice is cool.
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April 01, 2013, 01:22:20 AM
 #4

You got it all wrong. Satoshi Dice does not operate that way. Read again Verification on SatoshiDice.com and try to understand
Quote
Lucky Number

The lucky number used to determine the winner of games is simple. It is simply the first bytes of hmac_sha512(secert,txid:out_idx).

bc1q59y5jp2rrwgxuekc8kjk6s8k2es73uawprre4j
mjosephs (OP)
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April 01, 2013, 01:41:04 AM
 #5

You got it all wrong.  My proposed laundering protocol does not work that way.  Read again my post and try to understand.

If the customer sends a big pile of transactions to SatoshiDice, SatoshiDice knows which ones are winning transactions and which aren't.  SatoshiDice knows the secret number, and they have the transactions, so they can perform hmac_sha512(secret,txid:out_idx) on these transactions, check the result, and then only release certain transactions into the network.

I don't think you understand the difference between sending a transaction to SatoshiDice out-of-band and releasing the transaction into the network.  These aren't the same thing.



You got it all wrong. Satoshi Dice does not operate that way. Read again Verification on SatoshiDice.com and try to understand
Quote
Lucky Number

The lucky number used to determine the winner of games is simple. It is simply the first bytes of hmac_sha512(secert,txid:out_idx).

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April 01, 2013, 02:45:00 AM
 #6

- snip -
It then releases into the network some subset of the bets such that the customer's net profit is zero (before fees), but such that all the losing bets come from the dirty wallet and all the winning bets come from the clean wallet.
- snip -

Shouldn't this be obvious under inspection?  The balance of winning bets vs. losing bets would be skewed due the lack of random nature of the "released" bets.
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April 01, 2013, 02:53:22 AM
 #7

You go to the bank and tell them "here is my deposit of 100000 dollars" and they will say "where did you get it and why you didn't pay taxes?" and you say: "I win it on SatoshiDice".

Well, maybe it's true, but maybe this money comes from a legal business (fro example, selling hardware) and you didn't pay the taxes for that business. Then you say you get it from betting. That is money laundry.

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mjosephs (OP)
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April 01, 2013, 02:53:55 AM
 #8

Shouldn't this be obvious under inspection?  The balance of winning bets vs. losing bets would be skewed due the lack of random nature of the "released" bets.

Nope, because they select the bets to be released such that the laundry customer's net profit before fees (and the house "take") is exactly zero.  That's what you'd expect in the long run from true randomness.

There is no bias in the overall win/loss ratios.  The only bias is in which wallets win and which lose, but you can't detect that, especially if the customer provides multiple clean wallets and multiple dirty wallets.

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April 01, 2013, 04:09:52 AM
 #9

I keep seeing people say "SatoshiDice can't be involved in laundering coins because every payout transaction is linked to the bet".  Yeah, so what?

Or I guess you could launder your coins through us, we do not link payouts to bets satoshidice style Smiley
That definitely would explain the occasional floods of bets we see on 'low payout high winning chance' bets. 

SatoshiDice doing the big 250 bitcoin bets does make it more attractive to a money launderer but why not just use the blockchain.info service as it would most likely be the cheapest.

mjosephs (OP)
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April 01, 2013, 04:16:59 AM
 #10

SatoshiDice doing the big 250 bitcoin bets does make it more attractive to a money launderer but why not just use the blockchain.info service as it would most likely be the cheapest.

Blockchain.info no longer offers a coin-mixing service.

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April 01, 2013, 05:26:10 AM
Last edit: April 01, 2013, 06:10:34 AM by Stephen Gornick
 #11

Shouldn't this be obvious under inspection?  The balance of winning bets vs. losing bets would be skewed due the lack of random nature of the "released" bets.

Nope, because they select the bets to be released such that the laundry customer's net profit before fees (and the house "take") is exactly zero.  That's what you'd expect in the long run from true randomness.

There is no bias in the overall win/loss ratios.  The only bias is in which wallets win and which lose, but you can't detect that, especially if the customer provides multiple clean wallets and multiple dirty wallets.

Then your wagers for both the losing as well as the winning side would need to be placed on the same wager option (e.g., all on the same "less than 8000") so that they can be evened out without introducing any bias.

The customer then spends the money out of the clean wallet so SatoshiDice can't use the unreleased transactions.

That's not even needed.  The transaction hash used by the mixing service to determine whether the wager is a winner or loser will change based on any of the data in the transaction changing.  So if the INPUT and OUTPUT are the same for each trial, the amount can be changed to cause multiple transaction hashes.

So if I understand your approach correctly, here' s the approach with this INPUT re-use variation:

This assumes the desired amount to mix is 1,000 BTC, as you described was the amount of "dirty" coins.

So there would first be construction of the winning wager using the "less than 8,000" bet which has a 8x payout.  So that bet amount needs to be about 125 BTC (which will win 1,000 BTC).  So multiple wager transactions are created for the same INPUT and OUTPUT, except the amount for the first one is 125.0 BTC, the second one 124.9999999, the third one 124.99999998, etc..   So maybe a few dozen of these are created to ensure that there is at least one transaction out of the batch is a winner (transaction hash that results in a number less than 8,000).  These trials are not broadcast to the network but sent out-of-band to the mixing service.

Then there would be the construction of the losing wagers.  There are a little over seven losing wagers needed to average out the one winner.  So to "burn" the 1,000 BTC plus a 5% mixing fee, for example, the target amount of 1,050 BTC is divided by seven to get 150 BTC per losing wager.

Thus seven addresses for the losing wagers are each funded with 150.  Then for each there is maybe a dozen trials created for each using the same approach as above, one at 150 BTC, the next at 149.99999999, then 149.49999998, etc.  

The end result of that is for each of the seven "losing wagers", there is at least one trial with a transaction hash from the batch that is a loser (i.e., transaction hash that results in a number of 8,000 or greater).  These trials too are not broadcast to the network but instead are sent out-of-band to the mixing service.

The mixing service then evaluates the batch to find one winner and evaluates the losing batch to find a loser for each of the seven and broadcasts those eight transactions to the network.   The end result is mixed coins with nearly no detectable bias.  (The correct ratio is one winner out of 8.192 trials so there is a slight bias for rounding down to 7 losers.  Even much of that bias could be corrected for by the mixing service by instructing for there to be 8 losers (with a lower wager amount requested) for every N "mixing jobs".

The benefit to a popular wagering service offering this rather than some other mixing service presumably comes from there being an enormous number of unrelated transactions flowing through the service such that the payouts to the "winning" wager (clean) would essentially be unrecognizable as having any amount of taint higher or lower than any other wager payout from that service.

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mjosephs (OP)
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April 01, 2013, 05:51:58 AM
 #12

Then your wagers for both the losing as well as the winning side would need to be placed on the same wager (e.g., all on the same "less than 8000") so that they can be evened out without introducing any bias.

Sure, but that averaging can be done across customers and even across multiple weeks.  A given customer's wagers definitely do not need to be balanced evenly on both sides of any particular bet, nor do the laundering bets in any given day (or perhaps even any given week) need to have that property.


The customer then spends the money out of the clean wallet so SatoshiDice can't use the unreleased transactions.

That's not even needed.  The transaction hash used by the mixing service to determine whether the wager is a winner or loser will change based on any of the data in the transaction changing.  So if the INPUT and OUTPUT are the same for each trial,

Ah, I hadn't thought of that.  You're right, if the transactions sent out-of-band share inputs there's no need for the customer to "reclaim" the value in the unused transactions.

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April 01, 2013, 05:53:27 AM
Last edit: April 01, 2013, 06:09:47 AM by gmaxwell
 #13

The benefit to a popular wagering service offering this rather than some other mixing service presumably comes from
creating a plausible more-lawful source for the income. "Gambling winnings". Doubly so when the gambling service is "provably fair".

What signs might you expect to find if this was going on?  One might be highly improbable imabalances in the win/loss rate of certain subsets of bets due to the laundering traffic imperfectly mimicking the expected traffic. E.g. wins or losses concentrated in bets of certain values or in implausibly long win or loss runs. At least until someone noticed these behaviors and commented on them.
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April 01, 2013, 07:06:17 AM
 #14

I keep seeing people say "SatoshiDice can't be involved in laundering coins because every payout transaction is linked to the bet".  Yeah, so what?

Or I guess you could launder your coins through us, we do not link payouts to bets satoshidice style Smiley
That definitely would explain the occasional floods of bets we see on 'low payout high winning chance' bets. 

SatoshiDice doing the big 250 bitcoin bets does make it more attractive to a money launderer but why not just use the blockchain.info service as it would most likely be the cheapest.

A great shame, still offering an automatic laundering service is most likely frowned upon by the powers that be.

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April 01, 2013, 08:33:07 PM
 #15

SatoshiDice doing the big 250 bitcoin bets does make it more attractive to a money launderer but why not just use the blockchain.info service as it would most likely be the cheapest.
Because that would be pointless for actual money laundering. The purpose of money laundering isn't so much to break the connections— thats easily done— but to give the funds a "legitimate" origin, that you can report, pay taxes on, and spend without triggering any unwanted investigations.
mjosephs (OP)
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April 02, 2013, 06:46:12 PM
 #16

SatoshiDice doing the big 250 bitcoin bets does make it more attractive to a money launderer but why not just use the blockchain.info service as it would most likely be the cheapest.

Because that would be pointless for actual money laundering. The purpose of money laundering isn't so much to break the connections— thats easily done— but to give the funds a "legitimate" origin, that you can report, pay taxes on, and spend without triggering any unwanted investigations.

Very true, although I think with the advent of bitcoin's public ledger (something that did not exist before) there are really now two flavors of money laundering: (a) explaining how you got the funds and paying taxes on them and (b) breaking the transaction chain between the old coins and the new coins.

I can definitely imagine schemes that do either of the above but not the other.  So perhaps "money laundering" now needs more refined subcategories.

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April 02, 2013, 07:38:44 PM
 #17

are sites like SatoshiDice illegal?
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April 02, 2013, 08:48:06 PM
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SatoshiDice doing the big 250 bitcoin bets does make it more attractive to a money launderer but why not just use the blockchain.info service as it would most likely be the cheapest.
Because that would be pointless for actual money laundering. The purpose of money laundering isn't so much to break the connections— thats easily done— but to give the funds a "legitimate" origin, that you can report, pay taxes on, and spend without triggering any unwanted investigations.


Yeah, this is spot on. It doesn't matter where your money is 'from' more where you've 'recieved' it if you want to spend it without raising suspicion. Say you run a resturant, if someone pays their bill in cash you're not responsible for asking if they'd just got it 20 minutes ago by mugging someone. It's legitimate money as far as you and the government is concerned. So whats the best way to launder money? Same way it's always been: set up a business and buy things from yourself. Use the legitimised profits of that business to invest in real world goods, like real estate and so forth. Thats what money laundering is.
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