Gathering funds for legal action against HashFast

[cedivad]

tldr: HashFast, 3 days after claiming that everything is on track, says that they will be at least 3 weeks late. 3 weeks later means that people like me, who bought batch 1 miners, will never see a ROI greater than (minus) 50%.
thegenesisblock.com says that our projected return should be 1/4 of our initial investment, if we can start mining by December.

This found is for the only purpose of *investigating the possibilities* (as in, asking a lawyer to give us a reliable review) of our situation.

Address: 1PrdHS7HQjhZpEnkWiGx15Pr1J3C6B4NfR

I will send there 5 btc of my money. Please contribute however you can. I think that we should be able to have a contact with a laywer by friday.

[cedivad]

I spoke to a lawyer, showed him the terms of sale and here is what he said:

- Since you had to agree to the terms by checking a box when you purchased they are enforceable.

- Section 3a is the important part. It says:
"(a) Guaranteed Baby Jet Delivery Dates – Batch 1. All of the 550 Baby Jet units from Hashfast’s first production batch are guaranteed for delivery by December 31, 2013. If Buyer ordered one or more units of such Baby Jets, and Hashfast does not deliver such units by that date, then Buyer may cancel the undelivered portion of the order at Buyer’s request and Hashfast will refund the payment for the units that Buyer purchased but did not receive and cancelled. This cancellation and refund is Buyer’s sole and exclusive remedy for Hashfast failing to deliver by the December 31, 2013 guaranteed delivery date. To avail itself of this remedy, Buyer must cancel the order before such unit(s) are delivered by Hashfast, and in any case before March 31, 2014."

The interesting part is it does NOT say that you can not cancel an order before Dec 31st! It just says if HF does not deliver by then your remedy in that situation is cancellation and a refund. It does not say anything about the buyer requesting a cancellation BEFORE then!

- Later on in section 3f it says: "No order or any part thereof may be rescheduled or cancelled without Hashfast’ prior written consent except for cancellations permitted under this Section 3." This may be taken to mean "no cancellations" but it is unclear as it is buried in the section regarding a customer refusing delivery or contesting a shipment.

- The Dec 31 deadline contradicts HashFast's advertising material, direct e-mails, and blog posts which repeatedly announced a Oct 20-30 ship date.

- In the event of any ambiguity regarding the expected ship date, the legal system must allow cancellation of the order. From the lawyer: "There is a concept of law wherein if someone provides a contract that has an ambiguous term then that term is construed against the entity providing the contract." In the lawyers opinion, since the purchase agreement, namely section 3a, is ambiguous, then the courts should be find in favor of the customer and allow cancellations.

[Vagnavs]

didn't they employ you? At one time. Yes, sorry. That was cyberdoc (something like that). Best of luck with your legal action with HF.

[cedivad]

didn't they employ you? At one time

You are confusing me with someone else.

[HashFast_CL]

tldr: HashFast, 3 days after claiming that everything is on track, says that they will be at least 3 weeks late. 3 weeks later means that people like me, who bought batch 1 miners, will never see a ROI greater than (minus) 50%.
thegenesisblock.com says that our projected return should be 1/4 of our initial investment, if we can start mining by December.

We published a shipping windows between Point A (end of Oct) and Point B (Dec 31) and committed to issuing full refunds if we ship outside of this window (IE after Dec 31). 

What you're seeing is a narrowing of that window, and honesty on the company's part in communicating with our customers.
We believe that to be a good thing.

Naturally, we'd love to hear whatever you'd like to say - and if you feel we are doing things wrong, please tell us how we may do better.

That extends to any of our customers, people who are not yet our customers, and people who are not and never will be

Thanks!

HF

PS to answer your other point regarding the ROI calculations, some points we think are relevant include

1- We do not control the hashrate
2- Despite that, we came up with the MPP as a way to further support our customer's success. 
3- We then gave MPP protection free of charge to all batch 1 customers, who were not expecting it
     and were charged for it.
4- MPP protection is intentionally denominated in BTC, not USD.   
    Given the direction BTC prices are taking, it is possible our early or late customers will achieve ROI in
    less that 90 days - and still receive MMP protection from us.  No charge, no questions.

We are proud to be the first ASIC company to do that for its customers.
We're happy to see other ASIC companies follow our lead (down to copying "miner protection program" word-for-word); if it leads to ASIC companies treating their customers better than has historically been the case, we are all for it.

[pwnyboy]

We published a shipping windows between Point A (end of Oct) and Point B (Dec 31) and committed to issuing full refunds if we ship outside of this window (IE after Dec 31).  

Actually, you'll be "committed to issuing full refunds" if you miss the self-imposed October 31 timeline, per FTC rules.  This forum is all too familiar with these rules, having done battle with BFL, PayPal and others.  If anyone should be speaking to an attorney, it's Hashfast.

[pwnyboy]

p.s.  now you're quoted.  I'm just going to leave this here, in case you (or your handlers) later realize the absurdity of some of the things you've said and decide to edit your post.  Like giving away the "MPP" / "miner protection program" trademark and/or service mark to the community.

tldr: HashFast, 3 days after claiming that everything is on track, says that they will be at least 3 weeks late. 3 weeks later means that people like me, who bought batch 1 miners, will never see a ROI greater than (minus) 50%.
thegenesisblock.com says that our projected return should be 1/4 of our initial investment, if we can start mining by December.

We published a shipping windows between Point A (end of Oct) and Point B (Dec 31) and committed to issuing full refunds if we ship outside of this window (IE after Dec 31). 

What you're seeing is a narrowing of that window, and honesty on the company's part in communicating with our customers.
We believe that to be a good thing.

Naturally, we'd love to hear whatever you'd like to say - and if you feel we are doing things wrong, please tell us how we may do better.

That extends to any of our customers, people who are not yet our customers, and people who are not and never will be

Thanks!

HF

PS to answer your other point regarding the ROI calculations, some points we think are relevant include

1- We do not control the hashrate
2- Despite that, we came up with the MPP as a way to further support our customer's success. 
3- We then gave MPP protection free of charge to all batch 1 customers, who were not expecting it
     and were charged for it.
4- MPP protection is intentionally denominated in BTC, not USD.   
    Given the direction BTC prices are taking, it is possible our early or late customers will achieve ROI in
    less that 90 days - and still receive MMP protection from us.  No charge, no questions.

We are proud to be the first ASIC company to do that for its customers.
We're happy to see other ASIC companies follow our lead (down to copying "miner protection program" word-for-word); if it leads to ASIC companies treating their customers better than has historically been the case, we are all for it.

[mgio]

We published a shipping windows between Point A (end of Oct) and Point B (Dec 31) and committed to issuing full refunds if we ship outside of this window (IE after Dec 31).  

Actually, you'll be "committed to issuing full refunds" if you miss the self-imposed October 31 timeline, per FTC rules.  This forum is all too familiar with these rules, having done battle with BFL, PayPal and others.  If anyone should be speaking to an attorney, it's Hashfast.

I thought the Dec 31st was the deadline for batch 1 and Jan 31 for batch 2.  Read the fine print.

If you bought this pre-order you have agreed to the terms.  They will refund you the money if the don't ship by Dec 31st.  If they don't, I think you'll have a good case to take them to court next year.  If they ship right before or on Dec 31st (tracking number in your email/fax), you can kiss 90% of your investment goodbye.  Just wait in few weeks they will announce that products are shipping so no more refunds.

My guess is that they will get the first miners ready sometime by the mid of November, they'll mine them for a month or so and start shipping, just to give them enough time to meet their legal obligations.  Or just refund you your money in bitcoins (a small portion of the mining profits).  Essentially giving them free capital to develop the product.  After that, they will auction them on ebay or some other tradehill like place.  Rinse and repeat for gen2.

I believe those terms where added in mid-August AFTER many of the batch 1 orders were made. Initially there was no Dec 31 clause in the agreement.

[cedivad]

I believe those terms where added in mid-August AFTER many of the batch 1 orders were made. Initially there was no Dec 31 clause in the agreement.

I'm looking for a copy of that version of the agreement. Thanks.

[cedivad]

I've filed a FTC compilant for my amount. I would like you guys to do the same. It's a free, painless process that is really relaxing (compared to reading these forums) and takes about 15 minutes. You can do it here:

https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/GettingStarted?NextQID=70&Url=%23%26panel1-6

Also, i need help on deciding who to contact on this huge list, to prosecute offenders of consumer laws (since that it looks like that it can be done privately and not):
http://www.usa.gov/directory/stateconsumer/california.shtml

I have to take a flight tonight, so i can't do it. However i will probably spend a lot of time tomorrow calling them via Skype.

[paranoidx]

I've filed a FTC compilant for my amount. I would like you guys to do the same. It's a free, painless process that is really relaxing (compared to reading these forums) and takes about 15 minutes. You can do it here:

https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/GettingStarted?NextQID=70&Url=%23%26panel1-6

Also, i need help on deciding who to contact on this huge list, to prosecute offenders of consumer laws (since that it looks like that it can be done privately and not):
http://www.usa.gov/directory/stateconsumer/california.shtml

I have to take a flight tonight, so i can't do it. However i will probably spend a lot of time tomorrow calling them via Skype.

Wow, you sure can throw one heck of an internet tantrum based on nothing other than confusing the most optimistic shipping date with some kind of deadline (despite the fine print specifying DEC 31 as the actual deadline).

While you're at it, don't forget to call the BITCOIN POLICE!

If I remember correctly, their site said starts shipping October 20th - October 30th when I made my preorder.  From that information, the "most optimistic shipping date" is October 20th and the worst case scenario is October 30th.

[MikeyVeez]

tldr: HashFast, 3 days after claiming that everything is on track, says that they will be at least 3 weeks late. 3 weeks later means that people like me, who bought batch 1 miners, will never see a ROI greater than (minus) 50%.
thegenesisblock.com says that our projected return should be 1/4 of our initial investment, if we can start mining by December.

We published a shipping windows between Point A (end of Oct) and Point B (Dec 31) and committed to issuing full refunds if we ship outside of this window (IE after Dec 31). 

What you're seeing is a narrowing of that window, and honesty on the company's part in communicating with our customers.
We believe that to be a good thing.

Naturally, we'd love to hear whatever you'd like to say - and if you feel we are doing things wrong, please tell us how we may do better.

That extends to any of our customers, people who are not yet our customers, and people who are not and never will be

Thanks!

HF

PS to answer your other point regarding the ROI calculations, some points we think are relevant include

1- We do not control the hashrate
2- Despite that, we came up with the MPP as a way to further support our customer's success. 
3- We then gave MPP protection free of charge to all batch 1 customers, who were not expecting it
     and were charged for it.
4- MPP protection is intentionally denominated in BTC, not USD.   
    Given the direction BTC prices are taking, it is possible our early or late customers will achieve ROI in
    less that 90 days - and still receive MMP protection from us.  No charge, no questions.

We are proud to be the first ASIC company to do that for its customers.
We're happy to see other ASIC companies follow our lead (down to copying "miner protection program" word-for-word); if it leads to ASIC companies treating their customers better than has historically been the case, we are all for it.

Unfortunately hashfast nobody gives a fuck what your bullshit estimated dates are. It's what the FTC says they are. I haven't ordered from these scum, just looking at their faces made me want to puke.

If you ordered support this man and get your money back

[cedivad]

If you ordered support this man and get your money back

Thanks. My idea is to put down 5k to 10k of my own money, but it would be much much better if there where a community following and helping on this long way. Not only money-wise, that is also important, since that i think 10k won't bring me that far.

[cedivad]

Your fucking mentally retarded. Hashfast is obligated by law to ship within 30-60days or have to provide a refund you dumb fuck. Doesn't matter if they say we will ship 5 years from now.

That is when no shipping time is determined: the standard one is within 30 days. Anyway, it doesn't really matter: we are entitled by the law to a full refund if we cancel the order before the shipping and/or if we refuse the shipment.
Anyway just ignore him, you will have brighter days.

[MikeyVeez]

If you ordered support this man and get your money back

Thanks. My idea is to put down 5k to 10k of my own money, but it would be much much better if there where a community following and helping on this long way. Not only money-wise, that is also important, since that i think 10k won't bring me that far.

Problem is they probably wasted all that money on development so they probably cant refund anything even if you won.

[cedivad]

If you ordered support this man and get your money back

Thanks. My idea is to put down 5k to 10k of my own money, but it would be much much better if there where a community following and helping on this long way. Not only money-wise, that is also important, since that i think 10k won't bring me that far.

Problem is they probably wasted all that money on development so they probably cant refund anything even if you won.

Well, i guess that i could have the company' IP. Like the chip, if it exist. Take it and make it open source. It would be my dream. Who cares about the money at that point?

[MikeyVeez]

If you ordered support this man and get your money back

Thanks. My idea is to put down 5k to 10k of my own money, but it would be much much better if there where a community following and helping on this long way. Not only money-wise, that is also important, since that i think 10k won't bring me that far.

Problem is they probably wasted all that money on development so they probably cant refund anything even if you won.

Well, i guess that i could have the company' IP. Like the chip, if it exist. Take it and make it open source. It would be my dream. Who cares about the money at that point?

Hey if thats your goal than good luck, I think it would be fairly easy to win this with a decent lawyer. Do you have a hardware background?

[cedivad]

Hey if thats your goal than good luck, I think it would be fairly easy to win this with a decent lawyer. Do you have a hardware background?

Sorry, what do you mean by hardware background? Like in computers? I think to know everything that there is to know about computer hardware, and i'm studying electronic engineering (for what it matters).
The only lawyer quote i have is a 300$/hour one, but i guess that i can find a decent one for much lower than that, what do you think?

(again, if anyone has lawyer suggestions, they are really welcome)

(thanks!)

[MikeyVeez]

Hey if thats your goal than good luck, I think it would be fairly easy to win this with a decent lawyer. Do you have a hardware background?

Sorry, what do you mean by hardware background? Like in computers? I think to know everything that there is to know about computer hardware, and i'm studying electronic engineering (for what it matters).
The only lawyer quote i have is a 300$/hour one, but i guess that i can find a decent one for much lower than that, what do you think?

(again, if anyone has lawyer suggestions, they are really welcome)

(thanks!)

That is about the rate you will find. Post on lawyers.com maybe you can find a cheaper one.

[thoughtcourier]

Not a customer here. Expected shipping date not met, refunds should be available upon request. Law may be on HF side, PR will not be for long.