Bitcoin Forum

Copying this over from the Spondoolies thread.  I will add more info here as it becomes available.

MinerEdge rack mounted system based on RockerBox pictures can be found here http://imgur.com/a/5g0cq (http://imgur.com/a/5g0cq)

Nathan provided the following info:

Water cooled.  One long heatsink resides below the 4 modules. Making for easy replacement of modules.   
 
Efficiency, Not quite as good as some of the best numbers we have seen on the SP20 but we have more tweaking to do.  Our next rev board (in case Serial power doesn’t work) will have some more power improvements.  We hope to gain an additional 4% DC-DC efficiency at max current.
 
.69w/GHs @ 6THs
.57w/GHs @ 5THs
.51w/GHs @ 4THs
Measured at wall @ 240v
 
Management traffic goes out the RJ45 jacks on the front.
We will be integrating the board level management data with the ASIC data shortly.  This will allow us to power 24 cards(6 chassis) off of one management card.
 
This system is basically equivalent to 4 SP20 systems in one 1U tray.

Contact information:

Nathan Ho
Founder/CEO
Miner Edge LLC
MinerEdge.com
Email: nathan at mineredge.com
skype:  h.nathan.h@Skype

https://i.imgur.com/DbF06nE.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Iuqx7A2.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/7vBCkAp.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ZAnW8yE.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/dV8P2ee.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/uXq4xZ1.jpg
[/quote]

Reserved for future.

Would love to see their next chip in this form factor.   ;)

Exciting. When will you finalize the tech descriptions, price, etc?
Did you license the SPT software as well or will you have your own gui?

Looks very nice would love to know more about it.  Especially price.

I am confused? So is this a new manufacteurer who is building ASICs but instead of developing their own chips they get it sourced from SP?

Are you going to be at the conference in Austin this weekend?

At least for the model at hand - yes.  It's not that strange - that (systems integrators using manufacturer's chips) used to be the status quo :)

Yes:

Wow looks very interesting. 

New to this so have some questions.

So water cooled would require me to have some sort of equipment to support this?  Or it will come with everything needed to be up and running out of the box?  Or will you offer or provide information on what should be used?

So at 4THs would be about 2040 watts and so is that with all boards installed or some combination? 

Not to put you on the spot but do you have any approx. price range for the first board and chassis with the controller module and for board 2-4?

Also, what time frame before you begin shipping?

As with all new people we ask to many questions.   ;D

Interesting formfactor. Is there any pictures of the current block and loop design? What type of PSUs are those, do they have air cooling? Does that air cooling extend over the PCBs?

Nifty, looking forward to seeing this in person!

I didn't think SP was producing anymore ASICs and I assumed they weren't producing any more of their semiconductor chips also. That's why I am surprised this company came up.

From Previous thread:


Can you outline where/how the radiators fit into the setup? I imagine they are external, so is the unit really a 1U unit or is it 1U plus radiator?

Also could you outline what your expected performance output will be per unit? An idea of price would be good too :)

As suggested already, best to open up a new thread with your details/announcement.

Way too many RJ45 to praise it yet. I'm not a big fan of 1U since all the fans in the PSUs will be little and noisy for a front-to-back air flow.
Even water-cooled, the PSUs cover most of the back area, so it won't be too much air flow that way either .. we will see.  

Looks nice so far.  What price range are you looking to sell these at?

If there is a friendly neighborhood forum moderator who could kindly remove my posting restrictions I would most appreciate it.


Thank you,

Nathan

ask hardware moderators (three on the top of the page) in a PM - I am sure that they will accommodate you as it is a special case (new company).

liked, wanted! but wtf are 8 rj45 ports doing in there!?!?!!?

Great  new Gear!

Up for new bitcoin company.

I believe they're for connections to a single controller module.

This is awesome! Can wait to see price and official spec!  ;D

I want!

following closely

Exciting...hoping to see some more details come from Austin tomorrow.

Please take some pics for those of us not there! Hopefully good specs and price.

Always nice to see new hardware enter the market.  I agree about the 1U spec yielding tiny whiny fans though.  Never pleasant.

Will be watching.

I like that it's water cooled. Interested.

But.. again.. the ethernet ports? .. your gonna ruin us from switchports rather than datacenter space :)

Looking forward to (hopefully) more details today!

I wonder if the dozen ethernet jacks don't all go to a control/management machine which then has one point of connection to the network. That keeps the system fairly modular but also doesn't require exotic cabling to do so (since data centers probably have boxes of little patch cables running around).

I thought that this miner will be water cooled. True or false?

If watercooling isn't applied to the PSUs (which seems likely, if only for safety) the PSUs will have whiny annoying 1U fans. The absolutely worst fan on the super-annoying SP10 was the PSU fan. Not having a dozen of them will be nice, but there'd still be one per PSU.

Yeah, I can't see PSUs being watercooled. I'm hoping to see details about their 4U hardware.

Yup yup yup. Its likely those PCBs still need some airflow as well, although we can't be certain without more pics. Maybe the blocks cover the DC/DC area as well, maybe they just cover the chips.

Really keen to see this. We have prepared everything in our data center for watercooling. The heat is being used to heat water and several buildings, while we get our power directly from the local hydro power plant. So this equipment here seems to be what we were looking for the whole time.

Any  news today from the conference about miners?

Oh damn true! Any update with the conference?? I hope to see some nice update not only with miner edge but bitmain and spondoolie!  ;D

Looking at the conference it didn't appear to be huge on miners.   Miner's Edge was only one I noticed on the list so I would not get to excited as far as other brands at this conference.  I'm surprised no one has posted something from there yet though.

Seeing as Spondoolies is a reputable and well known company, having them maybe comment here that you are legit would go a LONG way toward establishing what IMO is the elephant in the room...is this too good to be true? If so this is some exciting stuff. But some validation would be good so we know who are doing business with for those of us looking to buy.

If you look in SP thread they vouched for them in there.

No it is not very good at all.   As the best claim of power is .51watts per gh.

 .51 watts per gh  does not cut it.  the next jump is over 10% .  

 We need .4 watt or .35 watt offerings not .51 watts.

I am mining a sp20 right now at .45 watts  It is clocked to 961gh

So why should I get this? Go back up to .51 watts


not a fact just an opinion.

If you can use the hot water and turn it into money....

If it could heat a swimming pool in the summer and heat a radiator in the winter it would have value.

Many pool heaters are electric.

Some usa homes use spot  heat electric radiators.

So if you could switch this from one to the other during seasons it would be  of value.


http://images.esellerpro.com/2407/I/807/77/74079_oil_filled_heater_2500W_MS.JPG

I'd be more interested in heating a swimming pool in wintertime. I kept saying we need to get a pool for the shop and use a waterloop to cool hosted machines so we can go swimming but no, they wouldn't let me...

We think alike after I wrote the post  I though I should say that.  thanks for reading my mind and posting it.

I've been thinking about it for a while. The first shop we looked at last June had a nice dropoff on one side where we could have set up a pool and dove right off the loading dock. BUT NO.

Well this is not ideal but at least we have someone new trying to produce some hardware.
Agree with Philip.....need better efficiency out of these chips or new ones. 
Looks like it could reduce the overall footprint but all the ethernet jacks confuse me.
Would need to be priced to move.

Hello all. 
I will try and answer as many questions as I can in this one post as I am still restricted on how fast I can post.

Q: Exciting. When will you finalize the tech descriptions, price, etc?
A: We are working our supply chain now to get a better understanding of what our pricing will be.   The larger order we can put together the better the volume discounts and more leverage we have with our parts suppliers.  I hate to give a price point but if we can’t get things down close to $2,000USD I doubt there will even be a market.   

Q: Did you license the SPT software as well or will you have your own gui?
A:  We are indeed building off of the same path as Spondoolies.  CGminer/MinePeon.   So, Yes.  User friendly GUI.   We will also be adding some larger scale management features.

Q: I am confused? So is this a new manufacteurer who is building ASICs but instead of developing their own chips they get it sourced from SP?
A: We are a systems integrator.  Our team comes from the enterprise server development world.  We are manufacturing our own architecture built around Spondoolies Rocker Box ASIC

Q: Water?!?  WHAT?  Where? How?
A: This is an open loop watercooled system.  This is designed for larger scale datacenters in mind.  (Individual customers may purchase, but will have to provide their own pump and radiator)(which means you can make this as quiet as you like!)
Our heatsink touches off on ALL parts of the “hashing module” that produce heat. (ASICs, Voltage regulator, and even the board itself.   All heat the board produces exits the water channel.

Q: Power supplies?  Noise?  Water?
A:  Power supplies are air cooled.  However they get near ambient temp air as the hashing modules are cooled by the water.   Running the system at 4Ths the power supplies are silent.  Over 5Ths they are barely audible.  6THs they are noticeable.  They are still the only fans in the system so they are not really all that bad compared to the competition.  Ill take SPL readings and post an audio recording in the future.

Q: Can you outline where/how the radiators fit into the setup? I imagine they are external.

A: Yes Datacenter level.   We are launching our architecture around: http://drycoolers.com/sites/default/files/avr-brochure-v2_0.pdf
As other have stated functional waste heat usage was one of our main goals, next to an easily upgradable design.
With an open loop design some may not have radiators at all, instead choosing to redirect a river for free cooling.
Our architecture also opens up the rest of the world to Bitcoin mining.  We can easily handle over 40C ambient air temperatures.

Q: RJ45!!!!!!!!!  HOW MANY?
A: Each Module needs 1 RJ45 connection to the management card.  Each management card will handle 24 hashing modules.  The 2nd port was for development reasons.
2 management cards will reside in a 1U chassis supporting a total 12 full miners.
Cat5 cabling is low cost and having a separate management card make for ease of upgrading modules.   

Q: Its likely those PCBs still need some airflow as well, although we can't be certain without more pics. Maybe the blocks cover the DC/DC area as well, maybe they just cover the chips.
A: Airflow is not needed for the hashing modules.  The PSU will need air however and will pull some air over the hashing modules.  Our heatsink makes contact with all heat producing components of the board.

Q: .51 watts per gh  does not cut it.  the next jump is over 10% .
A:  We are not an ASIC design company.  We can only control efficiency so much.  We are using Spondoolies Rocker Box ASIC so our efficiency should be on par with theirs.   We are pretty close on efficiency.  We have a few more tweaks to make.  It is also unknown if we happen to have an earlier batch of ASICs that may not perform as well.  Even different SP20’s will have different efficiency numbers.


Final Note:
Our marketing and technical documentation is being finished soon.
Our goals with this architecture were as follows:
Replaceable hashing Modules.  Upgrade modules (not including ASIC cost as we can not control that) could potentially cost ½ the total price of a new miner.
Easy, rapid, end user replaceable hash modules.
Rack dense.
Useable waste heat.
Interface with standard industrial plumbing.
Provide all the benefits of immersion cooling without the cost.
We believe we have accomplished these goals with this system.

Hope to see you tomorrow at the Texas Bitcoin Conference.

-Nathan

I'll point the giant white elephant in the room (please, don't take offense, i'm rooting for you guys):

Are you expecting to ship this anytime soon? The RockerBox chip performance is nice, but if you're going to ship these in the next 2 months, you're gonna get steamrolled by the already (partially) disclosed Bitmain hardware. How are you coping with this fact?

I'm all in for non-air cooled systems, in fact i like the idea of an industrial equipment with open loop systems (using evaporative towers and chillers, etc), but if your time to market isn't right, you'll be the next flop.

Please, please, please: Be sure to release asap, or rethink your hardware for next-gen chips, with possible blade upgrades, etc.

So basically its exactly priced around the SP20 but its much much quieter being water-cooled.

I can see this as an improvement because the ONLY reason I didn't get an SP20 was due to the noise.


As the earlier poster pointed out, you should get these ready to ship ASAP because if you release them too late like in 6 months or so, then there will be no market for them.

yeah speed is important,  And .51 watts is meh but a low power farm or DC can run them.

Drool.... just noticed made in U.S.A. hope it's priced like a Chevy.  Too bad it's not NextGen, but silence is also key.

heh... out of my price range probably especially at 2k or so a card proposed ....and of course I'm dense still want a 'home miner' way to run something even if i lose some $$$ on it for such a toy factor...yeah I'm one 'sick' puppy...it is them whirly fan noises and pretty blinking LCD's etc...soothing!

*yeah I know mining is dead* .... still my electric costs vs co-hosting is equiv so wtf same ball park...but either is probably not wise to do ...neither a data center
co-host nor home miner option makes sense alas...the home mining dream is dead ......gasp..sputter...croak!

don't matter much is as in the previous post the unit .they will try to make is near 2K as possible.. and i guess you have to have some kind of 'special' data center rig just to
hold these cards..not to mention water cooling...well ....I'd be dumb for a home miner toy i may lose a bit of cash on..but have not quite drunk enough kool aid
'to the moon' punch to pull that off even in my 'deluded state of mind"

... a bit of $$$ lost for a toy is one thing....a Porsche sports car in the go cart race track not so much...
so alas metaphorically I want to race go-carts (home miner) but now only racing allowed is 'real' race track with real race cars (data center etc)......dang it..

When I do win the Lottery (heh only thing I can control about the lottery is the previous optimistic sentence) ...then I may get a baker's dozen..till then I will be in the
bleachers watching the pros play with a corn dog and a beer...

the people making these are free to send me a 'prototype' version of a 'home miner' for me to review with my inept skills as a home plug and play miner type user and I will review
at their leisure (I got 2 knc titan's up w/o burning my house down ..good to have goals)....yeah I just hurt a miner edge tech reading this as he fell off his chair ....oflao.... er sorry)

(hey again ...only thing I can control is again is the above testing offer sentence......and again STILL better odds then the lottery...er hey miner tech guy ..don't try to laugh so soon after falling off your chair ..you will hyperventilate..get dizzy and fall off again....just saying)

well I will watch from the bleachers with the popcorn view of this thread... i guess...I always can 'dream' of them glory days in the 'Minors' Home Team sense  (GPU/ASICS)

....AH...the smell of electrical space heaters in the summer months from the basement ...with just a hint of ozone.......

retirement sucks as a miner....

Searing,

Are you generally drunk or high when you post? Genuinely curious, no offense intended.

LOL. Honestly I thought about asking that question also in the past when reading his posts. I assumed that English wasn't his primarily language.

I did too, but I'm pretty sure I remember him saying he was in the US in one of his posts so I figured I'd ask.  :P

He's a good guy,but he does post like it's his first time ever...each time  :D

Just the way he is....your alright searing!!  ;)

just type fast as i can think .guess you guys are not much into 'whimsy' huh?

put me on /ignore others do......no issues with that......

You forgot one of the most important question!

When????

i'm kind of ready for an upgrade and really want to do it! your miner(s) looks to be perfect for me!

for ''The larger order'' you can speak with RoadStress as he is doing some awesome grupbuys!

I really like Searing and assume he is harmless, I just have him on ignore because his posts do my head in.

Like I said, no offense intended. I have nothing at all against you, and from what I've managed to read of your posts you seem like a nice guy. And I do try to read your posts, but I always end up going cross eyed.  :-\

Keep on keepin' on, searing.  8)

(what I'd give to be a fly on the wall while your English teacher graded your papers LOL)


---------------------------------

Back on topic... ME, details please!  ;D

Very interesting.  I hope there's enough of a market for upgrades with newer gen chips.

Do you plan retail or bulk sales? What volumes?

This is intended for purpose built data centers (with custom liquid cooling builds), but also built to be quiet?  Data centers don't care about noise and liquid cooling is way more hassle than it is worth.  With chips being throttled down for better efficiency (or they will be soon due to difficulty rises), maximum cooling by liquid is no longer needed.  It is much easier to get 1 big evap cooler than build liquid cooling for each 100 ~ 200 miners. 

I want you guys to be sucuessful, please make it cheap and don't bother with liquid cooling!! :)

bump!

yes, i'm interested ;D

I find it interesting it shows they have logged in today.  But they have not posted during entire month of April if I read it right.

Current Status:    Online Online

i know :-\

i'm about to install the boiler and i really don't want to use my 2 c1 units to heat the water.
this miner, in this thread, looked perfect for me...

They might just be looking for PMs, or have other personal accounts they sit on. But yes, would be nice to get an update.

Well it looks like they actually have a little more information and a potential picture of the unit on their website now.

http://i58.tinypic.com/2886xyq.jpg

Potential game changer if everything comes to fruition

Read again. 20 X 42U

Well that does make more sense :P The "20 - 42" is a bit confusing to mean "20 x 42" when just above it uses "2 - 4" to mean "between 2 and 4".

Dogie,

The way I read it is, 1Mw in 20 (42u) Racks or 50Kw per rack.  At 50Kw per Rack with Power requirements of 2,000 to 6,400 watts per 1U tray ( as per http:\\mineredge.com) that gives a density of 25 to 7.8125 units per rack, with a 2 management cards residing in a 1U chassis supporting 12 Servers (as per http:\\mineredge.com website and answers addressed on page 3 #47 on this forum).  Please correct me if I am wrong.

I am about ready to refresh a lot of our EOL (End of Life) equipment and these are the numbers that we came up with.

/s/ TuffToad
Louisville, Ky

Sorry Dogie,

Looks like SP-Tech and You are faster on the Keys than I am ( Had to check my facts.  If you get something wrong on this forum, you are called out quickly).

Sorry for the lack of communication here on the forums.   I have been traveling a lot this last 1.5 weeks.

We have a lot of information that will be coming out soon. 

We have had a few customers interested in buying just our infrastructure without mining cards.   They are wanting to get a head start on deployment and will wait for the next gen ASICs to arrive.    Mining cards can then be shipped out as soon as they come off of the SMT line, drastically speeding up deployment.    Is this something you might be interested in?

As far as power density per rack is concerned, there are a lot of factors that can come into exactly how much energy you can extract from ASICs.    But for a crude estimate,  we can put 4x 1600watt supplies in a 1U chassis.   If you want to place our management cards outside the rack and use 48U racks then you could potentially have 307Kw per rack.

So far we have tested the the cat5 links from the mining cards to the management cards as far as 50feet without issue.  We believe with Cat6/7 cables we can go much further.

Here is a rendering of the enclosure for the management cards.   We are leaving the front panel open to allow for future changes.    Each management card can control 24 mining cards or 6U.  2 management cards can fit into the below 1U enclosure.


https://i.imgur.com/DXF78gA.png



-Nathan

Your concepts look great, and good job working with Spondoolies, but I am still having a hard time understanding the savings of water cooling. 

I look forward to learning more about your cost compared to air.
I think you have a modular plan, and that is huge, but does the water design hinder it by tying you to a particular board layout?

When you say modular do you plan on exclusively using proprietary gear even for every future upgrade? Use the same chip manufacturer going forward?

I look forward to seeing your modular water-cooled system in action.

As big as upgrades have the potential to be, a truly modular system would kick ass. Especially if it was there were some type of form factor mining manufacturers in general work towards.

Form a standards committee and give the world a standard to last the next 20 years +
ATX for miners, but better.

.69w/GHs @ 6THs and 6.4kw don't go well, i'm missing something here?

4*s20=4*1150w=4.6kw

overclocking when using lower temp water? and power goes from 4.6kw to 6 or more kw?!?!?! ::)
......

ETA?

Any update? Any price?

Is this another pre-order thing? have this shipped out yet? I don't see any order button on their site.

I'm wondering the same thing...

I would like to buy several myself.  However, I'm waiting until the new chips arrive and they come out with them installed.  I don't want to buy now; only to find out later they are no longer in business and I cannot upgrade my new modular rigs.

b2b only with this generation of asics
moq 400 pieces
 >:(

Are these units shipping yet?

Apparently not.  I wish they were so we could hear some feedback from those who get them.

Tempted almost to stop by their office in Austin when I go out that way later this year to see what's up.

So will members be able to buy a single 1u, or are we looking at full racks only?

They talked like they will sell individual 1u rigs.  They also said the price per unit can go lower if bought in bulk.

They said they doubt there would be much of a market for them if they could not get them around $2,000 each 1u.  I would pay a bit more depending on the hash rate and power consumption when the new chips come out and if they are able to get SPT's new chips.  That's still an unknown.  I would appreciate more communication...

I have no idea what that even means...

bussines to bussines
Minimum Order Quantity

Are you sure that does not seem right, as that is not an amount that would leave you with full management cards or full racks.  You would wind up with about half a rack of equipment in one cabinet.

Hi All,

Sorry for the silence.  I will fill you in on our current state of affairs.

We have not shipped any units.  At this point profit is extremely slim.  The risk to us, and to you the customer is too great at the moment.    With only a limited supply of ASICs, this limits our ability to fully ramp up production before we would have to stop again.  Limited ASICs and profits mean limited ability for warranty as there may be no way to get replacement parts.

The best way for us to care for our future customers is to stay viable as a company and have a successful launch.

Our current strategy is to work on our next gen hashing modules with the next gen ASICs.

Our plan for the little guys is to open orders along side any large deployments we have.   This will allow you to get the exact same pricing the big guys get!   Your only extra expense will be shipping/handling.  We of course will be ordering extras for warranty replacements and some for immediate sale.

I will see if I can get my mechanical engineer to shoot me some renderings of our air-cooled system.
Also if there are any MUST have features you would like to see in a home miner feel free to shoot them to me.

We did mine live with our system at the Inside Bitcoins New York.  A couple forum members did stop by to witness.  Maybe they can chime in here to verify.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CDtY91pVAAAIy8U.jpg:large

Ill try and stick around on the forums a bit more.  Feel free to shoot any questions to me via skype or email as well.

-Nathan

Hi Nathan,

Thanks for the shout out (update).  It's appreciated greatly!!!

I feel you are making a wise choice with the next generation ASIC's to have a better chance with a good start and continued success.  We need another manufacturer in the mix to help those of us who wish to grow in the mining world.  My plans are to move out to Washington State the 4th quarter of this year or 1st quarter of next year to have access to low power costs and grow as a miner.  I'm not going to do it if I can't buy next gen ASIC's.  It would be pointless to pick up my family and move out there if I can't get next gen ASIC's.

I already have 60TH/s.  I want to start out with 200 Th/s at a minimum when I move out there.  So, I have quite a bit to add when I move out there.  I wouldn't mind the 140 TH/s I add [at a minimum] being your equipment.

Thanks for taking the time to do this right!!!  Patience is a virtue.

David

Wise move to not pursue this current generation.  With market and supply uncertainties, you are more valuable to us consumers in the long run (keeping the hardware industry more diverse) as opposed to taking a risk and having your current gen end up like the last Avalon launch (too little, too expensive, too late).  I hope you guys have the means to stick around in this industry until the next launch (and hope that that launch is available to you!)  It's a lot to be putting out in these uncertain times, but you definitely have our support.

Personally, I have a small farm (30 kW), but for heat management and distribution, this is definitely something I would be interested in.  Ducting heat via liquid is heck of a lot easier than ducting hot air, and would allow me to offset a lot more of my business' heating bills in the winter.  Here's to hoping you'll have something on the market by the fall!

Hi Nathan,

I'm just checking in.  I was curious how it's coming with Miner Edge and rigs with new chips?

Any updates?

Best regards

David

Is there any update on these?

Regards
A

Just caught this thread. Per the requested wish list re: water/fluid cooling. Just make sure the setup can take real-world cooling system pressures. Preferably say 50 psi or more.

Why? So the end user can implement a reliable system using a line powered industrial pump(s) and fans on the radiator(s). The 12-24vDC pumps & reservoirs folks seem to want to use may work for individual miners but.... put a rack full of them together and then one big central system is called for. Make them able to be plugged into a large dry-chiller system or other heat removal sink (possibly a spa?) and you have a winner.

Bumping this again, does anyone know what happened to this company? it all looked so promising....

Hate to say it but I doubt this company is still around, the address listed on their website is a UPS Store location and the #302 is the mailbox number.

Just Google the address "2541 S IH-35, STE 200 #302 Round Rock TX, 78664-7357" and you'll see the 3rd entry is a UPS Store.

They were an OEM for a company that had nothing for them to OEM with.

Ah yes, I remember something to do with rocker box chips wish were Spondoolies kit.

Such a shame as it looked like really good gear, I suppose they could of still gone over to Bitfury chips but after doing all that R+D on the SPT chips then effectively having to bin it and start again I suppose the money just ran out :(

I think there was just not the demand for it.  A lot of asic data center's are not like standard data center's where you need nice rack mounted device.  Yes they are really nice ... but a lot of asic data center's are going to be shelf's where you can set say a S9 and PSU right on it.   So they are trying to make a premium product, so taking some other company's chip and doing it with that.    With that business model I don't see it happening as what are chances they can buy chip's make a miner and do it with competitive pricing?

So a neat idea but likely something that will remain prototype I don't think they will find the chips currently.  And even if they do I still see price as premium product which means money and less chance of ROI.

Or the other thing, where it died out two years ago.