Bitcoin Forum

Its as simple as that, whoever has the conviction to believe in honest money will eventually end up very wealthy.
its hard to hold through all the booms and busts, just ask anyone who bought at 1$ and sold at 10$.

http://www.knowqout.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/believeBitcoin.png

in other simple words, keep holding and you will become rich right? that's what every one should do, leave the whales eat each other, while we hold forever

It's hard to say, for those who bought at 1~10$ and sold at 1000$, Bitcoin is already a gold to them while for those who bought at 1000$ and sold at 200 or so, Bitcoin is still nothing or shity to them.

here's a basic misunderstanding.
The wealth of bitcoin is decentralization!!!
Many people just want to get rich with bitcoin buying to $ 1 and selling at $ 10.
but at the end, will only have dollars ... and will always be slaves of central power of the banks.

that's all.

What's your definition of slave? You can equally say that bitcoiners are slaves of bitcoins.

In the mind of a bitcoiner, "honest money" is about making a bunch of speculators rich, who do nothing but buy, and then sit on their arse and hope really-really hard to become successful.

It's not like a honest monetary system should be about rewarding those, who actually contribute something useful to society. Let's all start to feed the honest leeches that are called bitcoiners. Their virtuous quests for easy riches are full of honesty and integrity.

absolutely NO!
if you wan to do a payment, you do not need a third part bank services...
you manage your wallet.
you manage the payment.

remeber: decentralization it is the key!

that's all.

Whereas I agree in general with what you wrote the fact is that most of the rise behind Bitcoin so far was driven by illegal, or semi-legal businesses and pure speculation which has very little to do with the 'honest money'.

I don't need a bank to manage my wallet either. I use a bank because it gives convenient services. Decentralization is completely overrated.

Some say conviction others say delusion. I think there's a good chance that those who believe in bitcoin will see a great return at some point in the future but its by no means guaranteed. I certainly believe in the potential of bitcoin but the real question is do the rest of the world? Sadly the general public don't seem to be the smartest among us.

Let me ask you one thing:

Who is that gives value to a "thing"? I think we are giving value to each thing in our life. The problem with the fiat value is that people are giving value to a piece of sheet so Why can't we give value to a byte (data)?

honest money is a type of money where you can't just print more of it and redistribute the purchasing power arbitrarily.

you have to understand that an economy can not function properly when capital is allocated according to the whims of politicians and bureaucrats at a central bank.
it has to be allocated according to supply and demand so that production of what people demand can occur.

in particular the interest rate has to be set by the market according to the supply and demand of savings.

the people who understand these basic truths and understand why bitcoin is more functional than gold will make a fortune.

Don't quote the trolls unless you want to end up on ignore lists with them.

>Re: Bitcoin is a game of conviction

As in "becoming a convict" you mean?  Like Charlie Shrem, the Vice Chairman of Bitcoin Foundation?

Your "honest money" is something that lacks dynamic supply. Dynamic supply that is ESSENTIAL for any currency to have stable and predictable value in a dynamic economy.


I agree that the rules of the economy should be neutral from politics and corrupts that goes with politics. But if bitcoin would actually replace fiat, then those same corrupt politics would have a lot more power then they had before. Bitcoin is valued almost purely on speculation, so in the Game of Bitcoin, the winners are those who have more and those know how to manipulate the markets. Bitcoin wouldn't solve the problem of concentrated power, but it would make it a lot worse. If you are currently unhappy how the sharks of the stock markets are getting rich at others expense, then these sharks would be the absolute rulers of the economy.



Gold has always been a terrible way to store value or transfer value.
Gold has been good for several things, like: 1) Electronics 2) Jewellery 3) Speculation
Because bitcoin lacks the mechanism to keep a stable and predictable value, it's a very low quality currency, that is only good for one thing - speculation. Gold will remain valuable because of 1) and 2), and speculation will still last over this metal through centuries. Bitcoin will get old and boring pretty fast though. New practical forms of digital currencies will come out, and they will attract people with it's easy and safe use, not by it's promises of easy riches. These currencies will spread fast because of their practicality. No cults will be needed and no promises will be made for the lazy, that by joining, they would become rich without working.

neither supply nor demand of anything are predictable and stable why should prices be?
prices need to reflect the change in supply and demand, thats why any attempt to make prices stable is nothing but a distortion of the market and the will of consumers.

its exactly because bitcoin's supply is completely predictable and not dynamic that its such a good form of money, things priced in bitcoin reflect exactly the balance between supply and demand without anyone manipulating it by increasing or decreasing the amount of money.

maybe because the majority of people are blind...
and the bitcoin community will educate to this new currency protocol,

then people will understand.

not to a piece of shit, but to something that is losing value, that's the funny thing, it is as if you eat your vomit

you see the no sense, that the government has build in all those years? completely stupid

not a cult, not a cult, not a cult

what about those guys that bought at $1000?


too bad. this is turning into a cult slowly but surely.  :P

If this is a cult then its the cult of sound economics and truth of which i'm proud to be a member.

anyone who uses "money" that Janet Yellen just prints out of thin air is the real lunatic, although unfortunately lunacy is the current mainstream.

the people who bought at 1000$ will win out in the end just like the people who bought at 11$ did.
i don't know how long it will take, but eventually the fiat money lie will collapse and people will move back to real money.

and just like any other successful venture anyone who is on the boat from early on will be rewarded massively.

Stable prices allow to make plans. You can't make large long-term plans by leaning on a low quality currency, that's value is highly unpredictable. A good quality currency gives the necessary support needed for large scale projects, that are the foundation of modern economics.

In the world of bitcoin, everything would suddenly become extremely fragile against speculation. The stock market sharks would have control over every economic aspect. It would be cowboy capitalism on steroids. The only winners would be the professional speculators, who have the funds and the experience to outplay everyone else. The doctors, the engineers, the teachers and the police - everyone who earns their money by something other then speculation, would be on the losing side.

That's the thing with bitcoiners. They shout slogans of freedom and anti-oppression, but actually the only thing they want is to be in the place of the oppressors, while having even more power to oppress everyone else.

if the only way a business plan is profitable is with fake stable prices then in reality that plan is a waste of resources, doesn't actually create value, and shouldn't exist.

money should tell business men what the real price of the resources their business is using so that they know if their business is still creating value.

the manipulated USD prices don't actually reflect real supply and demand becsuse they are being doctored to be "stable" when in reality neither supply nor demand are stable.

whats wrong with people speculating? speculators are just people who invest their money in what they believe to be a profitable business venture.

whats a "stock market shark"? sounds like something out of a fantasy book.

and whats a "professional speculator"? is that a speculator with a crystal ball? 

It's not about faking the price of resources, but about linking prices to main natural resources that's supply and demand is relatively stable and predictable.

The supply and demand for important natural resources are stable, and that is what counts. The rest is up for the free market, and the prices for consumer products etc. do fluctuate together with changing supply and demand.
Without this stability, the entire economy would be in total chaos. You couldn't even sign a simple employment contract without having to gamble on what your salary actually is worth in a month.

Nothing is wrong with speculation if it's done in moderation. Right now, the speculators already have too much power in this modern public/private (costs go to public, and gains go to private) financial relationship. Bitcoin would make things a lot worse for the reasons I described in my previous post.

"Stock market shark" is a person who knows more about speculation then you do. He knows that speculation is not only about investing into profitable business ventures, but about manipulation and scheming. He knows how to abuse the existing system to his advantage to gain wealth without contributing anything significant in return. He is basically a glorified professional gambler. A gambler that would be rewarded a lot higher if something as simplistic and dumb as bitcoin would actually replace fiat.

I recommended to read more, since your point of view is naive at best. You can't even seem to comprehend the importance of stable valued currency, and how it is essential for even the most simple financial deals.

Well yeah I agree to quite a big extent, but it's a very thin line between blindly believing in something (and being a bag-holder if things go wrong), and being simply persistent and wait for things to blow over.

linking prices to main natural resources? that does not happen.

the reality is that the central banks calculate something called the CPI and it consists of a bunch of consumer products.
the central banks then manipulate the money supply so that no matter what the supply and demand are prices will go up about 2% a year.

im not even gonna go into how the central banks print money to save failed companies and how as a side effect that distorts the prices of everything.

the world was built on a gold standard without this "stability", its only in the last 40 years that money became paper.

the "speculators" don't have any power, what your talking about is a bunch of cronies who are in bed with the government, that's just one more reason why bitcoin is so good as money, the government can't bailout the cronies if it can't print money.

there is no such thing as a "professional gambler" and there is no such thing as a "stock market shark".
both are just gambling blindly.

actually there are professional gamblers... they're called casinos. :D

And of course there are poker players as well.

I think it still goes back to what you believe. If the person sees there's a future in bitcoin, he will hold on to it no matter what. For those who bought at $1 and sold at $10, what they believe in might not be as strong as those who continue to hold on to it until today.

It has already happened, junior. Oil gives dollar value. Since the 1971 or 1973.., a deal was struck with OPEC nations, that they would exclusively sell oil in dollars. As long there is a steady supply and demand for oil, then the dollar value can also be kept stable.

Calculated and predictable inflation shows stability. If I know how much my money is worth less in a year or two, then I can make an conscious choice; whether to be lazy and just sit on my money while it's value shrinks, or keep busy and invest my money into new progressive opportunities. I think that this reasoning is fair in a capitalistic way - reward those more, who do more.
I would even settle with stable deflation. I would say screw it, let's reward the lazy lards and increase the value of their "matress money" 2% each year. Let's reward those bastards for just being lazy and stupid enough for not investing their money into something.
But what I would not settle with, is that there is no stability whatsoever with bitcoin the currency. The next year could be +99% or it could be -99%. I think that this world would only suit for people with more serious intellectual disabilities. The world of bitcoin would be for people who would want to see their entire income as a constant form of blind gambling.

"The good old times of the gold standard" is basically a popular internet myth, that is mostly represented by those, whose only experience with finance has been through youtube conspiracy videos.
What has basically happened, is that gold has switched to oil. And it's a good thing since oil has more practical application and that means more predictability in demand. Practical need of the demographics can be easily predicted, but it's very hard to predict a value for something, that has very little practical application and most of it's market is ran by pure speculation.

If something is valued more then 50% on pure speculation, then trading that asset is already gambling in my book. Gambling can be fun when using funds that are meant to be used as entertainment, and there are people who know how to manipulate the odds and rules just enough to earn a steady income with gambling. But there's exactly where bitcoin should stay, at the Entertainment->Gambling section. It would be cruel to force everyone else to gamble with bitcoin, so they would constantly have to worry if their salary is worth less again, because the inflow of new greater fools slowed down.

I don't think that the main problems of our world is caused by malevolence. I think that the culprit here is mainly stupidity.
Take bitcoiners for example. They feel that the current financial system isn't perfect enough and something needs to be done to better it. Sadly, because they lack the education or experience needed to understand modern finance, they shout stupid slogans like replace fiat with bitcoin.
For those with at least little knowledge in finance, it sounds like "Hey this Volkswagen Polo R WRC isn't a perfect racer yet, so let's replace it with a shopping cart that has new innovative steel compounds in it's structure!". Yeah, it's nice to have an innovative gambling platform called bitcoin, but for serious finance, it just lacks the needed qualities to be a serious currency.

The Banksters have already agreed that SDR be adopted as the global currency through the auspices of the IMF. SDR have existed since the late sixties. It was within the past 4-5 years that the IMF has openly started talking about SDR becoming the Global Currency. The same people that control the Petrodollar also control the IMF. The SDR will make the USA openly subservient to them becoming the reserve currency and make it impossible for the USA to print money into oblivion like they do now. In other words put them on par with the rest of the world. It is nothing more than a showcase transfer of power to put Americans into austerity mode so these evil fucks can grab more physical assets, gutting the USA.

It's about finding the "sweet spot" between being delusional in an obvious long-term bear market, and listening to bears/shorters trying to push the price down and trolls spreading a lot of FUD...

what are you talking about?
what does the fact that oil is sold in dollars has to do with the fact that the federal reserve prints money and distorts prices just so everything would be 2% more expensive?

money DOES NOT need to be stable, it NEEDS to reflect reality which means letting prices go both up and down according to supply and demand.
you want Janet Yellen to create a fantasy world for you where everything is stable but THATS NOT reality!

anyone who makes business plans based on this stability fantasy will eventually find out the whole economy was built on a house of cards.

My grocer thinks the price of milk doesn't change from day to day, and so do I.  Since the two of us share the same crazy delusion, I know how much my milk's gonna cost me tomorrow.
See how nice everything works out, Robert Paulson?
:)

what you don't know is that you're grocer doesn't buy milk at the same price every day, he just buffers most of the volatility away from you and sells you at the average price.

once in a while he does adjust prices.

http://www.nasdaq.com/markets/milk.aspx (http://www.nasdaq.com/markets/milk.aspx)

As long as he does, our beautiful illusion is maintained.
Thanks for doing your part, grocer! :)

http://www.zengardner.com/wp-content/uploads/they-live.jpg

http://visboo.com/application/images/21122009/64877.jpg

It might be a game of conviction to us as current users but I think it's overall a game of confidence to everyone else. The general public needs to have some faith and confidence in it otherwise they'll be very reluctant to adopt it or it'll take a very long time for them to come round to it. They need a reason to use it and at the moment they can't really see it and just buy into the negative portrayal in the media.

You're just dumb as an ox, aren't you?

The fed doesn't distort or regulate the prices of consumer products, the free market creates prices in our everyday life.

The fed regulates that the availability of dollars would be in par with the availability of oil. Because oil is so important in the economy, it can set the overall tune of monetary value.
For the economy to be effective, different parts of it have to be in tune with one another. There has to be similar understanding of value, to give it numerical form and to put it into equations. The central bank is like a conductor in a choir to keep different instruments in harmony.

In spite my several efforts to explain to you that monetary value stability is necessary for even the simplest of financial deals, you are still unable to understand it. You just can't comprehend on why would people want to know what their salaries are worth the next month. Or how much weight does your investment have in the next month. You are just too dumb and fanatical to absorb this information. All you have, are your bags of bitcoin and your distorted view of virtues, that has been heavily influenced by personal ignorance and greed. If you would have ran your own business just once in your life, then you would already understand the importance of a stable currency. You would understand how it would be hell to do business in an environment, that has a currency with highly unstable value. I bet that you even only heard about the existence of FED after you saw couple of conspiracy videos from youtube.
Anyway, you are a great example on why I despise the majority of bitcoiners. They are like the Bolsheviks were, eager for revolution but just too dumb to understand the causes and solutions for the current problems, so instead of helping the society, they created a whole set of new problems, that are even worse then before.

I think the terms 'conviction' and 'confidence' can be used interchangeably what investing in Bitcoin is concerned. I mean, they even sound very much alike! Funny, isn't it? :D

alright then, enjoy watching the economy collapse (for the 3rd time in 15-16 years).
how much more misery will you have to take until you realize your theory of stability engineering (also known as ignoring reality and real supply and demand) is causing you to starve?

There's not much reasoning a person who believes we are currently living in a world where free market operates.

It's a game of trading and non-bias.

we are talking about bitcoin!!!

not about

bit coin tis real.. and we can all use it!!!
there is no need to wait for
no need to wait until it is developed

https://i.imgur.com/9Y7Hy2g.jpg

http://www.forbes.com/sites/traceygreenstein/2011/09/20/the-feds-16-trillion-bailouts-under-reported/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/traceygreenstein/2011/09/20/the-feds-16-trillion-bailouts-under-reported/)


All that vitriol to deceptively misrepresent and deceive in the defense of a dying, corrupt sclerotic system. Do you have anything positive to leave behind for the world old man? Besides the delusions of stability and sweet and light in your centrally-planned utopia?

It worked for Steve Jobs and Bill Gates.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/60553686/GAO-Fed-Investigation#outer_page_144 (http://www.scribd.com/doc/60553686/GAO-Fed-Investigation#outer_page_144)


The "conductor" hard at work making the economy play for you ... um, well not so much you, but you get the picture, right? right?!

NB: a trillion is a thousand thousand millions, a billion is a thousand millions. For all those doctors, teachers, dentists, nurses, soldiers and fireman who believe they needed stability in their value systems, it's a lot of pumpkins.

cult of the federal reserve false gold works very well indeed, look how brainwashed resident pumpkin head is.

wow!!!
and what are you doing here???

fired from microsoft & apple???

i think this could be a record!!

ehehehe
sorry!!!

I could not resist..

i'm joking here!!

 ;D ;D ;D ;D

It's also a game of knowing where you are today, and knowing what Bitcoin means on a broader spectrum. The problem is most people here are kids trying to speculate with the price and don't get what we are dealing with.