Bitcoin Forum

Bitcoin => Bitcoin Discussion => Topic started by: tokeweed on April 11, 2015, 03:06:38 PM



Title: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: tokeweed on April 11, 2015, 03:06:38 PM
Quote

Kaspersky Labs and INTERPOL have presented research in which they show how blockchain-based cryptocurrencies can potentially be abused with arbitrary data that can be disseminated through its public decentralized databases.

These two entities addressed the issue at the BlackHat Asia conference in Singapore. They successfully demonstrated how arbitrary data can be injected into a digital currency decentralized database simply by using an exploit code that opens a notepad enabling corrupted data to be inserted into the Blockchain.

Not long ago, Kaspersky Lab’s signed an agreement and a memorandum of understanding with INTERPOL and Europol in order to expand cooperation in a joint fight against cyber crime. In addition, the company has also organized a series of training sessions for INTERPOL staff to give them some knowledge about malware analysis, digital forensics, and financial threat research.

A Kaspersky researcher named Vitaly Kamluk explains:


“Blockchainware, short for blockchain-based software, stores some of its executable code in the decentralized databases of cryptocurrency transactions. It is based on the idea of establishing a connection to the P2P networks of cryptocurrency enthusiasts, fetching information from transaction records and running it as a code. Depending on the payload fetched from the network, it can be either benign or malicious.”


Vitaly also stresses that before digital currency can be widely accepted, we need to understand the full potential of the threats it faces. The Bitcoin community seems to agree with Vitaly, as security is a healthy industry seeing remarkable growth in the cryptocurrency ecosystem.

A report from Juniper projects that the number of active Bitcoin users worldwide will reach 4.7 million by the end of 2019, up from just over 1.3 million last year. The company expects usage to continue to be dominated by exchange trading, with retail adoption largely restricted to relatively niche demographics. This is surely good news for the virtual currency industry, and it means that the potential of the technology has already been recognized.

The importance of cryptocurrencies on e-commerce and other online financial activities has been growing at an astonishing rate, and concerns over security are growing. Security issues will likely always be present in the Bitcoin world, and users will have to rely on cybersecurity firms to constantly innovate and provide solutions.


http://insidebitcoins.com/news/kaspersky-and-interpol-say-blockchain-is-vulnerable/31578


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: Jeremycoin on April 11, 2015, 03:19:52 PM
BTCitcoin is in danger, we must safe it.
Whatever they said, I'll still trust the BTCitcoin ;D


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: fryarminer on April 11, 2015, 03:22:53 PM
Oh no!!! Bitcoin is in danger!! Hodl your coins so you don't lose them!


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: LiteCoinGuy on April 11, 2015, 03:35:23 PM
thank god i own only Litecoin 





:P


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: GTO911 on April 11, 2015, 03:51:07 PM
thank god i own only Litecoin 
:P

I really pity you, why wont you just cut the losses and enter some other position?


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: oblivi on April 11, 2015, 03:53:20 PM
Sounds like not really found based scaremongering for Kaspersky and friends to start selling us "Crypto-antiviruses" of some sort.


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: Amph on April 11, 2015, 03:56:48 PM
they are trying too hard to kill bitcoin price with all those troll news, despite all the 230 mark is still holding strong

they should at least back up their claim, why they don't try to abuse the blockchain then?


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: tokeweed on April 11, 2015, 04:00:37 PM
they are trying to hard to kill bitcoin price with all those troll news, despite all the 230 mark is still holding strong

they should at least back up their claim, why they don't try to abuse the blockchain then?

This.  Either that, or insiders know something that's why they are selling.


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: maku on April 11, 2015, 04:20:06 PM
thank god i own only Litecoin  
:P

I really pity you, why wont you just cut the losses and enter some other position?
They said that every blockchain based cryptocurrency is in danger? Does your Litecoins are not based on blockchain technology? Everything is lost. No matter which cryptocurrency you own.


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: Lauda on April 11, 2015, 04:25:22 PM
So where is this "presented research"?
How about someone from our side takes a look at it. I trust Interpol as much as I trust the FBI.


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: Denker on April 11, 2015, 04:26:32 PM
they are trying to hard to kill bitcoin price with all those troll news, despite all the 230 mark is still holding strong

they should at least back up their claim, why they don't try to abuse the blockchain then?

Exactly. As long as they don't show any proof and devs from the community can counter check that news is just bullshit!


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: odolvlobo on April 11, 2015, 04:26:47 PM
The article isn't clear. Is it saying that people can put arbitrary data into the block chain, or is it saying that somebody can corrupt my copy of the block chain? I don't see how either of those makes Bitcoin vulnerable, since the first is a feature and the second affects only me.


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: redsn0w on April 11, 2015, 04:30:27 PM
So where is this "presented research"?
This,

where is the research? They cannot say "blockchain is vulnerable" without give a full report and various example of that attack.


How about someone from our side takes a look at it. I trust Interpol as much as I trust the FBI.

I trust my cat more than FBI + Interpol http://nodownloadzoneforum.net/public/style_emoticons/default/Asd.gif.


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: Q7 on April 11, 2015, 04:34:06 PM
The article isn't clear. Is it saying that people can put arbitrary data into the block chain, or is it saying that somebody can corrupt my copy of the block chain? I don't see how either of those makes Bitcoin vulnerable, since the first is a feature and the second affects only me.

That is what I'm trying to find out as well. If it does, it means there are vulnerabilities that can be exploited affecting the blockchain but I'm just wondering how is it possible that nobody has seen it yet until recently.


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: tokeweed on April 11, 2015, 04:41:16 PM
The article isn't clear. Is it saying that people can put arbitrary data into the block chain, or is it saying that somebody can corrupt my copy of the block chain? I don't see how either of those makes Bitcoin vulnerable, since the first is a feature and the second affects only me.

That is what I'm trying to find out as well. If it does, it means there are vulnerabilities that can be exploited affecting the blockchain but I'm just wondering how is it possible that nobody has seen it yet until recently.

Someone out there must want BTC to go down...  Maybe trying to pull off the ultimate FUD?


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: abyrnes81 on April 11, 2015, 04:56:20 PM
The article isn't clear. Is it saying that people can put arbitrary data into the block chain, or is it saying that somebody can corrupt my copy of the block chain? I don't see how either of those makes Bitcoin vulnerable, since the first is a feature and the second affects only me.

That is what I'm trying to find out as well. If it does, it means there are vulnerabilities that can be exploited affecting the blockchain but I'm just wondering how is it possible that nobody has seen it yet until recently.

Because there aren't bug in the bitcoin code ( and the ledger aka blockchain) here a good report (for good usage) of the bitcoin blockchain :

http://www.righto.com/2014/02/ascii-bernanke-wikileaks-photographs.html


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: CIYAM on April 11, 2015, 05:12:03 PM
I am calling FUD as sure you can embed arbitrary data in the blockchain but "so what"?

You can embed arbitrary data in .jpg's (steganography) - does that make it dangerous to view a .jpg (or more relevant to the OP to even store it on your computer)?

Unless they are talking about a bug in Bitcoin Script (which clearly they are not) then it really is just FUD (and Kaspersky have lost all credibility in my view with this).


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: tokeweed on April 11, 2015, 05:14:32 PM
I am calling FUD as sure you can embed arbitrary data in the blockchain but "so what"?

You can embed arbitrary data in .jpg's (steganography) - does that make it dangerous to view a .jpg (or more relevant to this topic even to store it on your computer)?


Exactly.  But this info is comng from Kaspersky and the Interpol...  Someone out there is trying to pull off the ultimate Bitcoin FUD.  And this is a good time to attack Bitcoin...  While the climate is bearish.


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: AGD on April 11, 2015, 06:49:26 PM
Quote
simply by using an exploit code that opens a notepad enabling corrupted data to be inserted into the Blockchain

Wow! My notepad can do things like that?


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: CIYAM on April 11, 2015, 06:55:23 PM
Quote
It is based on the idea of establishing a connection to the P2P networks of cryptocurrency enthusiasts, fetching information from transaction records and running it as a code.

So it is complete FUD - no normal Bitcoin client works like this at all.

You'd need some specially created Bitcoin client that uses something like OP_RETURN data as an executable (and I don't believe there even is such software in existence unless Kaspersky created it just to published this FUD article).


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: shorena on April 11, 2015, 07:00:38 PM
If there is anything it has not yet been disclosed to the core devs their youtube video demo shows nothing that suggests the blockchain itself is vulnerable. From what I can see they merely used it to store data.

see here -> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1021143.0


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: Beliathon on April 11, 2015, 07:19:32 PM
they are trying to hard to kill bitcoin price with all those troll news, despite all the 230 mark is still holding strong

they should at least back up their claim, why they don't try to abuse the blockchain then?

This.  Either that, or insiders know something that's why they are selling.
No one is more of an insider than Satoshi Nakamoto, and Satoshi has not sold a single dollar's worth of bitcoin! Everyone here needs to grow a pair and

http://www.monetaryhistorian.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/hold-bitcoin.png

Or get out of the way and remain irrelevant.


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: tokeweed on April 11, 2015, 11:29:21 PM
they are trying to hard to kill bitcoin price with all those troll news, despite all the 230 mark is still holding strong

they should at least back up their claim, why they don't try to abuse the blockchain then?

This.  Either that, or insiders know something that's why they are selling.
No one is more of an insider than Satoshi Nakamoto, and Satoshi has not sold a single dollar's worth of bitcoin! Everyone here needs to grow a pair and

http://www.monetaryhistorian.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/hold-bitcoin.png

Or get out of the way and remain irrelevant.

Who are you? ;D

Bit yeah.  This is clearly a start of a FUD campaign.  Looks like 2015 will be another bad year for BTC.  


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: R2D221 on April 11, 2015, 11:37:35 PM
You'd need some specially created Bitcoin client that uses something like OP_RETURN data as an executable (and I don't believe there even is such software in existence unless Kaspersky created it just to published this FUD article).

Exploiting a vulnerability before a malicious entity does actually is helpful because you can be prepared and patch it before shit happens. Whether or not what Kaspersky found is a vulnerability to begin with is another question (which I believe is not, like all of you).


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: ajareselde on April 11, 2015, 11:51:44 PM
You'd need some specially created Bitcoin client that uses something like OP_RETURN data as an executable (and I don't believe there even is such software in existence unless Kaspersky created it just to published this FUD article).

Exploiting a vulnerability before a malicious entity does actually is helpful because you can be prepared and patch it before shit happens. Whether or not what Kaspersky found is a vulnerability to begin with is another question (which I believe is not, like all of you).

I am not entirely cartain about the story, but i have read that there were even cases of shild porn pictures stored in blockchain, there is a copy here ;
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=191039.0 , and that is only a start of blockchain abuse.
I dont see why everyone is attacking kaspersky, they are making a warning before shings get out of hand, atleast what we can do is listen to what they  have to say.

cheers


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: tokeweed on April 11, 2015, 11:58:02 PM
It's not FUD?


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: tokeweed on April 12, 2015, 12:28:48 AM
You'd need some specially created Bitcoin client that uses something like OP_RETURN data as an executable (and I don't believe there even is such software in existence unless Kaspersky created it just to published this FUD article).

Exploiting a vulnerability before a malicious entity does actually is helpful because you can be prepared and patch it before shit happens. Whether or not what Kaspersky found is a vulnerability to begin with is another question (which I believe is not, like all of you).

I am not entirely cartain about the story, but i have read that there were even cases of shild porn pictures stored in blockchain, there is a copy here ;
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=191039.0 , and that is only a start of blockchain abuse.
I dont see why everyone is attacking kaspersky, they are making a warning before shings get out of hand, atleast what we can do is listen to what they  have to say.

cheers

LOL did you read that thread? Its already known long time ago how is it a vulnerability?

You cant be serious. (about listening to Kaspersky)



Until Kaspersky can make a tool to prove there is a vulnerability, I am not believing anything.

Prove it.


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: stevenh512 on April 12, 2015, 02:26:06 AM
Quote
Kaspersky Labs and INTERPOL have presented research in which they show how blockchain-based cryptocurrencies can potentially be abused with arbitrary data that can be disseminated through its public decentralized databases.

To me, this makes Kaspersky and INTERPOL sound like a joke. A well-known antivirus/security software company and a large international police force took this long to figure out that you can put arbitrary data in the blockhain? The rest of us have known this all along, a few even use it as their business model. While I could see it being a problem in the future (especially if we don't fork to increase the block size, these spam transactions could eventually make it harder to get a legitimate transaction confirmed), so far it hasn't really hurt anything, it's just made the blockchain take up a little bit more hard drive space than it would have otherwise.

I am not entirely cartain about the story, but i have read that there were even cases of shild porn pictures stored in blockchain, there is a copy here ;
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=191039.0 , and that is only a start of blockchain abuse.

How long ago was that, and Kaspersky (along with INTERPOL) is just figuring it out? No wonder people are laughing at this and/or attacking them. BTW, if you had read the entire thread you linked and looked into it, there were not (and as far as I know still are not) child porn pictures in the blockchain. What is there is some data from a TOR service called The Hidden Wiki which includes, among other things, links to TOR hidden services which served as blackmarkets, child porn sites and the like. Odds are, with all the "dark web" busts in recent news, a lot of those services have probably been shut down by now anyway and I'm sure new ones are springing up every day.


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: Ron~Popeil on April 12, 2015, 02:33:22 AM
Elmer Fud again. It is common knowledge that you can put arbitrary data in the blockchain. There is no known way to use it for anything other than marking an occasion or including a read only message with a transaction. Pretty weak attack.


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: drawingthesun on April 12, 2015, 03:04:50 AM
Quote
It is based on the idea of establishing a connection to the P2P networks of cryptocurrency enthusiasts, fetching information from transaction records and running it as a code.

So it is complete FUD - no normal Bitcoin client works like this at all.

You'd need some specially created Bitcoin client that uses something like OP_RETURN data as an executable (and I don't believe there even is such software in existence unless Kaspersky created it just to published this FUD article).


CIYAM, I agree that the way we're reading that line makes no sense, as no Bitcoin client will execute the code like this. However there is the chance that a malware or virus could use the Blockchain to store its data and code, it would be more resistant than storing it on some hacked server in Russia.

So the virus attack vector would be the same as always, a dodgy email, a USB drive found on the side of the road.
The difference being, that when the virus turns on, it'll always be able to find it's P2P network, latest instructions, latest patch for the virus, as it'll all be stored on the eternal, distributed, invincible database known as the Bitcoin blockchain.

Of course a couple of issues with this:

1) The cost to store this data would be stupidly high. Much better to used some hacked servers.
2) As I understand it, most Bitcoin clients do not store the 40 (or is it 80) bytes of arbitrary storage available per transaction.
(Meaning that if not enough nodes have the stored data that the virus needs, it'll be useless)

I think this issue might be worse with Ethereum, as the virus can be sure that all nodes are saving all the code on the blockchain.

Remember, we're not talking about getting infected from the blockchain, but once infected, the virus will use it's updates and data from the blockchain to update itself and be commanded.

I think that is the only real threat here, and I am not sure if it's even a practical one.


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: majeis on April 12, 2015, 06:06:55 AM
...and Kaspersky just lost my general recommendation as antivirus software. Time to tell everyone to use virustotal with avira or avast again, I guess.


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: drawingthesun on April 12, 2015, 06:22:21 AM
...and Kaspersky just lost my general recommendation as antivirus software. Time to tell everyone to use virustotal with avira or avast again, I guess.

Why aren't you using Microsoft security essentials? I'm assuming you're on a Windows box.


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: R2D221 on April 12, 2015, 06:37:25 AM
...and Kaspersky just lost my general recommendation as antivirus software. Time to tell everyone to use virustotal with avira or avast again, I guess.

Why aren't you using Microsoft security essentials? I'm assuming you're on a Windows box.

If you're in the latest Windows (8.1), there's no Security Essentials anymore. You're looking for Windows Defender.


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: drawingthesun on April 12, 2015, 06:59:15 AM
...and Kaspersky just lost my general recommendation as antivirus software. Time to tell everyone to use virustotal with avira or avast again, I guess.

Why aren't you using Microsoft security essentials? I'm assuming you're on a Windows box.

If you're in the latest Windows (8.1), there's no Security Essentials anymore. You're looking for Windows Defender.

Good point, I'm stuck on Windows 7 for now.


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: Lauda on April 12, 2015, 08:33:58 AM
This,

where is the research? They cannot say "blockchain is vulnerable" without give a full report and various example of that attack.

I trust my cat more than FBI + Interpol http://nodownloadzoneforum.net/public/style_emoticons/default/Asd.gif.
Well this doesn't surprise me. I'm just disappointed that Kaspersky has joined them. I've had some faith in them.

Until Kaspersky can make a tool to prove there is a vulnerability, I am not believing anything.

Prove it.
Exactly. Let's say that Kaspersky wanted to be the good guy here. They should have gives us information so that it can be fixed.



Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: LiteCoinGuy on April 12, 2015, 08:44:07 AM
http://info.thinkahead.com/hs-fs/hub/462038/file-2510722270-jpg/blog-files/fud-cat.jpg


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: poncom on April 12, 2015, 11:10:39 AM
This,

where is the research? They cannot say "blockchain is vulnerable" without give a full report and various example of that attack.

I trust my cat more than FBI + Interpol http://nodownloadzoneforum.net/public/style_emoticons/default/Asd.gif.
Well this doesn't surprise me. I'm just disappointed that Kaspersky has joined them. I've had some faith in them.

Until Kaspersky can make a tool to prove there is a vulnerability, I am not believing anything.

Prove it.
Exactly. Let's say that Kaspersky wanted to be the good guy here. They should have gives us information so that it can be fixed.



For viruses I thought it's standard practice to keep quiet about a new vulnerability until the experts develop a fix for it. They tell each other about it but keep quiet about it publicly. Why has Kaspersky publicly blurted out a story about a vulnerability before the experts have had a chance to work on it?


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: lucullus on April 12, 2015, 11:28:18 AM
This,

where is the research? They cannot say "blockchain is vulnerable" without give a full report and various example of that attack.

I trust my cat more than FBI + Interpol http://nodownloadzoneforum.net/public/style_emoticons/default/Asd.gif.
Well this doesn't surprise me. I'm just disappointed that Kaspersky has joined them. I've had some faith in them.

Until Kaspersky can make a tool to prove there is a vulnerability, I am not believing anything.

Prove it.
Exactly. Let's say that Kaspersky wanted to be the good guy here. They should have gives us information so that it can be fixed.



For viruses I thought it's standard practice to keep quiet about a new vulnerability until the experts develop a fix for it. They tell each other about it but keep quiet about it publicly. Why has Kaspersky publicly blurted out a story about a vulnerability before the experts have had a chance to work on it?

Good question  ???


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: Blazr on April 12, 2015, 12:51:24 PM
What they are basically saying is that viruses can use the Bitcoin blockchain to communicate with their authors. So for example the virus author could put code into the blockchain and the infected computers would all get that code from the blockchain and run it.

This is a concern to kaspersky because normally the viruses would connect to a server, called a command and control server, to receive new instructions from the virus' author and send back stolen data etc. So all law enforcement would have to do is shut down the command and control server and they can cut the virus authors access to the infected computers. However, if the virus was using a blockchain, there would be no central point of failure and cutting the authors access would be non-trivial.

Other security researchers also had concerns about the website pastebin.com for similar reasons, that it could be used for botnet communication: http://blog.spywareguide.com/2009/06/pastebin-botnets.html

Most people are going to read this article and take it to mean that computers can be infected via the blockchain. This is not true. What they are talking about is using the blockchain as a way for hackers to send instructions to infected computers.


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: sana54210 on April 12, 2015, 01:39:51 PM
Quote

Kaspersky Labs and INTERPOL have presented research in which they show how blockchain-based cryptocurrencies can potentially be abused with arbitrary data that can be disseminated through its public decentralized databases.

These two entities addressed the issue at the BlackHat Asia conference in Singapore. They successfully demonstrated how arbitrary data can be injected into a digital currency decentralized database simply by using an exploit code that opens a notepad enabling corrupted data to be inserted into the Blockchain.

Not long ago, Kaspersky Lab’s signed an agreement and a memorandum of understanding with INTERPOL and Europol in order to expand cooperation in a joint fight against cyber crime. In addition, the company has also organized a series of training sessions for INTERPOL staff to give them some knowledge about malware analysis, digital forensics, and financial threat research.

A Kaspersky researcher named Vitaly Kamluk explains:


“Blockchainware, short for blockchain-based software, stores some of its executable code in the decentralized databases of cryptocurrency transactions. It is based on the idea of establishing a connection to the P2P networks of cryptocurrency enthusiasts, fetching information from transaction records and running it as a code. Depending on the payload fetched from the network, it can be either benign or malicious.”


Vitaly also stresses that before digital currency can be widely accepted, we need to understand the full potential of the threats it faces. The Bitcoin community seems to agree with Vitaly, as security is a healthy industry seeing remarkable growth in the cryptocurrency ecosystem.

A report from Juniper projects that the number of active Bitcoin users worldwide will reach 4.7 million by the end of 2019, up from just over 1.3 million last year. The company expects usage to continue to be dominated by exchange trading, with retail adoption largely restricted to relatively niche demographics. This is surely good news for the virtual currency industry, and it means that the potential of the technology has already been recognized.

The importance of cryptocurrencies on e-commerce and other online financial activities has been growing at an astonishing rate, and concerns over security are growing. Security issues will likely always be present in the Bitcoin world, and users will have to rely on cybersecurity firms to constantly innovate and provide solutions.


http://insidebitcoins.com/news/kaspersky-and-interpol-say-blockchain-is-vulnerable/31578

Lol without proper proof how can they claim that they can do it. It looks none other than a publicity stunt. Finding a loophole in Blockchain can't be done by these folks in the near future with current technology IMO.


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: NyeFe on April 12, 2015, 01:43:18 PM
What they are basically saying is that viruses can use the Bitcoin blockchain to communicate with their authors. So for example the virus author could put code into the blockchain and the infected computers would all get that code from the blockchain and run it.

This is a concern to kaspersky because normally the viruses would connect to a server, called a command and control server, to receive new instructions from the virus' author and send back stolen data etc. So all law enforcement would have to do is shut down the command and control server and they can cut the virus authors access to the infected computers. However, if the virus was using a blockchain, there would be no central point of failure and cutting the authors access would be non-trivial.

Other security researchers also had concerns about the website pastebin.com for similar reasons, that it could be used for botnet communication: http://blog.spywareguide.com/2009/06/pastebin-botnets.html

Most people are going to read this article and take it to mean that computers can be infected via the blockchain. This is not true. What they are talking about is using the blockchain as a way for hackers to send instructions to infected computers.

"Other security researchers also had concerns about the website pastebin.com" I've used pastebin to communicate between personal computers, but I don't think it would be a good example because in most case the program would be depending on one link for instructions, if it's removed then the program is vitally dead.

My main question, was why didn't they exploit the bug (using the blockchain) when they found it, until you explained it.
From my understanding the only solution, since you cannot restrict the type or format of data included in the blockchain, would be to update their antivirus to monitor the behaviours of local programs which listen for data included on the blockchain, then proceed to quarantining these programs.

So the problem is not that there's a code which can harm the Bitcoin ecosystem, but virus owners could utilise the blockchain to communicate with their Trojan horses...


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: CIYAM on April 12, 2015, 02:29:42 PM
So it is no more vulnerable that any other P2P network (as you can just spread your virus information via torrents if you want to hidden in images or other files using steganography).

IMO it would actually make much more sense (and cost nothing) to use torrents over Bitcoin so the fact that the article focuses on Bitcoin and not other (free to use) data storage P2P networks is rather odd.


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: dasource on April 12, 2015, 02:58:55 PM
So it is no more vulnerable that any other P2P network (as you can just spread your virus information via torrents if you want to hidden in images or other files using steganography).

IMO it would actually make much more sense (and cost nothing) to use torrents over Bitcoin so the fact that the article focuses on Bitcoin and not other (free to use) data storage P2P networks is rather odd.


Exactly, considering one would also need a bitcoin client or a third party website to push/read the transaction on the network. If they are doing that then why not use a free secure/encrypted method.


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: Blazr on April 12, 2015, 08:48:49 PM
So it is no more vulnerable that any other P2P network (as you can just spread your virus information via torrents if you want to hidden in images or other files using steganography).

IMO it would actually make much more sense (and cost nothing) to use torrents over Bitcoin so the fact that the article focuses on Bitcoin and not other (free to use) data storage P2P networks is rather odd.

Yeah there isn't a huge difference between any other P2P communication system, there are already lots of botnets that have their own P2P network. I don't see how this even deserves it's own report, it's not a very practical method of communication since it requires 20+GB of diskspace on the infected computer to store the blockchain, or a way of searching the blockchain on a remote server, which would then be a central point of failure and the whole point of using a blockchain would be pointless. They could use their own blockchain, but then that is just a run-of-the-mill P2P botnet with some minimal improvements.


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: NyeFe on April 12, 2015, 09:04:07 PM
So it is no more vulnerable that any other P2P network (as you can just spread your virus information via torrents if you want to hidden in images or other files using steganography).

IMO it would actually make much more sense (and cost nothing) to use torrents over Bitcoin so the fact that the article focuses on Bitcoin and not other (free to use) data storage P2P networks is rather odd.

Yeah there isn't a huge difference between any other P2P communication system, there are already lots of botnets that have their own P2P network. I don't see how this even deserves it's own report, it's not a very practical method of communication since it requires 20+GB of diskspace on the infected computer to store the blockchain, or a way of searching the blockchain on a remote server, which would then be a central point of failure and the whole point of using a blockchain would be pointless. They could use their own blockchain, but then that is just a run-of-the-mill P2P botnet with some minimal improvements.

Well then, I guess we've done their research for them. It wouldn't be feasible or logical for a botnet controller to utilise the blockchain to exploit each individual user. Not only would it be an outer retardation for such a talented mind, but it would ultimately end-up as a failed-attempt, after failed attempts.

I still can't grasp the reasons, why these antivirus companies didn't mention the increasing size of the blockchain to their audience?


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: goldkey0070 on April 12, 2015, 10:57:47 PM
why are there so many bitcoin haters in the world  .... i can't stand bad media trying to  hate on bitcoin


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: QuestionAuthority on April 13, 2015, 04:04:23 AM
So it is no more vulnerable that any other P2P network (as you can just spread your virus information via torrents if you want to hidden in images or other files using steganography).

IMO it would actually make much more sense (and cost nothing) to use torrents over Bitcoin so the fact that the article focuses on Bitcoin and not other (free to use) data storage P2P networks is rather odd.


CIYAM, how possible would it be for a spy network (government or otherwise) to communicate using messages hidden in the blockchain? You could essentially be anywhere in the world and update the last 24 hours to see today's messages and no one would know it. All they would think is you use Bitcoin as money.


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: CIYAM on April 13, 2015, 05:01:53 AM
CIYAM, how possible would it be for a spy network (government or otherwise) to communicate using messages hidden in the blockchain? You could essentially be anywhere in the world and update the last 24 hours to see today's messages and no one would know it. All they would think is you use Bitcoin as money.

Sure you could expensively embed messages in Bitcoin txs (I even developed a method of encoding the data into sigs) but it would be a ridiculously expensive way to send messages when you could just use stego and put them in images for no cost at all (with pretty much the same level of obscurity).


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: BADecker on April 13, 2015, 03:28:32 PM
How is anyone going to interject code into the blockchain universally? The blockchain will reject code that isn't in the majority of its databases around the world.

:)


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: BADecker on April 13, 2015, 03:35:31 PM
Besides, INTERPOL is the worldwide "company" that claims to be fighting child trafficking for sexual purposes. Yet the thing that it is doing behind the scenes is promoting child trafficking. Its supposedly legitimate operation has allowed it to set up all the connections worldwide that it needs to do the exact thing that it is claiming to be fighting against.

If INTERPOL claims something is wrong with the Bitcoin blockchain, it's because they tried to use Bitcoin for their wicked activities, and some of their own agents were found to be untrustworthy, and skimmed bitcoins out of company pockets.

:)


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: thejaytiesto on April 13, 2015, 03:38:19 PM
What they are basically saying is that viruses can use the Bitcoin blockchain to communicate with their authors. So for example the virus author could put code into the blockchain and the infected computers would all get that code from the blockchain and run it.

This is a concern to kaspersky because normally the viruses would connect to a server, called a command and control server, to receive new instructions from the virus' author and send back stolen data etc. So all law enforcement would have to do is shut down the command and control server and they can cut the virus authors access to the infected computers. However, if the virus was using a blockchain, there would be no central point of failure and cutting the authors access would be non-trivial.

Other security researchers also had concerns about the website pastebin.com for similar reasons, that it could be used for botnet communication: http://blog.spywareguide.com/2009/06/pastebin-botnets.html

Most people are going to read this article and take it to mean that computers can be infected via the blockchain. This is not true. What they are talking about is using the blockchain as a way for hackers to send instructions to infected computers.

Anyone that is into Bitcoin should have decent, solid knowledge of how to keep a computer clean. If you are infected you are already screwed up.
I still don't get how the blockchain is going to be able to execute "code". All the blockchain does is verify hashes, given you aren't using some weird non common wallet.


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: noobtrader on April 13, 2015, 03:46:29 PM
maybe they were talking about ethereum where it can be used to run program, however this is fud and i wonder how bitcoin community should deal with these ?


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: stevenh512 on April 13, 2015, 04:16:24 PM
What they are basically saying is that viruses can use the Bitcoin blockchain to communicate with their authors. So for example the virus author could put code into the blockchain and the infected computers would all get that code from the blockchain and run it.

And that's a legitimate concern with any method of communicating over the internet.. whether you're using the blockchain, a centralized server, some other P2P mechanism like BitTorrent or (as you mentioned) even something like PasteBin. Theoretically a virus, trojan or other malware could just as easily use a GMail account for the same purpose. Any of those methods would probably be a lot easier and less expensive for the malware author than repeatedly paying to put messages in the Bitcoin blockchain (either as fake outputs or OP_RETURNs), but I can see how putting the messages in the blockchain would be much more resilient than most of the other methods I can think of.

Quote
Most people are going to read this article and take it to mean that computers can be infected via the blockchain. This is not true. What they are talking about is using the blockchain as a way for hackers to send instructions to infected computers.

Perhaps it's the way the article is written, then? I took to mean the same thing, especially since it specifically mentions "fetching information from transaction records and running it as code" and in that light it's nothing but FUD, no Bitcoin client does that and there's no need for any Bitcoin client to ever do that. Of course some hacker using it to send messages to control infected computers is a much more legitimate concern. Even worse, I'd think, would be a hacker using it to send messages from infected computers back to himself. But we already have viruses and keyloggers that do a pretty good job of phoning home without ever having to touch the blockchain. :)


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: QuestionAuthority on April 13, 2015, 07:05:46 PM
CIYAM, how possible would it be for a spy network (government or otherwise) to communicate using messages hidden in the blockchain? You could essentially be anywhere in the world and update the last 24 hours to see today's messages and no one would know it. All they would think is you use Bitcoin as money.

Sure you could expensively embed messages in Bitcoin txs (I even developed a method of encoding the data into sigs) but it would be a ridiculously expensive way to send messages when you could just use stego and put them in images for no cost at all (with pretty much the same level of obscurity).


Thanks, I was more thinking about the aspect of a permanent record of the conversation.


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: Blazr on April 13, 2015, 11:28:05 PM
especially since it specifically mentions "fetching information from transaction records and running it as code" and in that light it's nothing but FUD, no Bitcoin client does that and there's no need for any Bitcoin client to ever do that.

They mean that the virus on the infected computer fetches the code from the blockchain and runs it, not an actual Bitcoin client. This isn't a security issue in bitcoin or anything per say, it's just Kaspersky pointing out that the Bitcoin blockchain or another blockchain could be used for communicating with infected machines (ones that are already infected) which would be harder to shut down than a regular c&c server.


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: cellard on April 14, 2015, 12:01:21 AM
What they are basically saying is that viruses can use the Bitcoin blockchain to communicate with their authors. So for example the virus author could put code into the blockchain and the infected computers would all get that code from the blockchain and run it.

And that's a legitimate concern with any method of communicating over the internet.. whether you're using the blockchain, a centralized server, some other P2P mechanism like BitTorrent or (as you mentioned) even something like PasteBin. Theoretically a virus, trojan or other malware could just as easily use a GMail account for the same purpose. Any of those methods would probably be a lot easier and less expensive for the malware author than repeatedly paying to put messages in the Bitcoin blockchain (either as fake outputs or OP_RETURNs), but I can see how putting the messages in the blockchain would be much more resilient than most of the other methods I can think of.

Quote
Most people are going to read this article and take it to mean that computers can be infected via the blockchain. This is not true. What they are talking about is using the blockchain as a way for hackers to send instructions to infected computers.

Perhaps it's the way the article is written, then? I took to mean the same thing, especially since it specifically mentions "fetching information from transaction records and running it as code" and in that light it's nothing but FUD, no Bitcoin client does that and there's no need for any Bitcoin client to ever do that. Of course some hacker using it to send messages to control infected computers is a much more legitimate concern. Even worse, I'd think, would be a hacker using it to send messages from infected computers back to himself. But we already have viruses and keyloggers that do a pretty good job of phoning home without ever having to touch the blockchain. :)

They are just hyping their antivirus bloatware any way they can. Whats the next big thing in everyone's computer? Bitcoin. Then lets start selling how Bitcoin "can infect your computer thought the blockchain" and make some shekels.


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: Todamont on April 14, 2015, 01:51:36 AM
CIYAM:
> You'd need some specially created Bitcoin client that uses something like OP_RETURN data as an executable...

That's actually an interesting idea. If you embedded some injection-like escape sequence, followed by assembly code tailored to a specific microprocessor set, then could it possibly be executed by any standard client when it is "naively" attempting to access the OP_RETURN data? Clients / nodes written in loosely-typed languages seem like they might be more vulnerable...




Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: R2D221 on April 14, 2015, 04:07:07 AM
CIYAM:
> You'd need some specially created Bitcoin client that uses something like OP_RETURN data as an executable...

That's actually an interesting idea. If you embedded some injection-like escape sequence, followed by assembly code tailored to a specific microprocessor set, then could it possibly be executed by any standard client when it is "naively" attempting to access the OP_RETURN data? Clients / nodes written in loosely-typed languages seem like they might be more vulnerable...

How would you “accidentally execute” a sequence of bytes? Unless you're using something similar to eval, which then it's not accidental anymore.


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: Kprawn on April 14, 2015, 07:40:58 AM
Well for this to happen, the virus or code has to execute arbitrary block chain data. It has to install a method of accessing that data, decoding it and executing it.

There are many other easier ways of doing this... A simple trojan virus in the executable of these games and apps, people are downloading "for free" from torrent sites, will do the trick. 

Yes, we do not deny, that it's not possible to inject malicious code into the blockchain, but it's not a VERY affective way to spread virusses. {It requires a lot of other things to be in place, before it can be executed}

In my opinion it's just another way for AV companies to spread FUD, to increase fear, and to get people to buy more of their products to counter it. {Very low risk}


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: tzortz on April 14, 2015, 08:22:54 AM
Exactly this. They want to promote their products that way.
Where was Kaspersky the last 5-6 years since the blockchain release?

They just want to get involved in the Bitcoin game. They make money.


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: Todamont on April 21, 2015, 08:48:59 AM
> How would you “accidentally execute” a sequence of bytes? Unless you're using something similar to eval, which then it's not accidental anymore.

Well, that's how injection attacks work. A client would naively try to read the data, and the data would contain an escape sequence followed by the equivalent of "eval" on the target operation system or hardware architecture. It doesn't seem impossible as a conceptual attack.


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: muhrohmat on April 21, 2015, 08:54:03 AM
well besides the fact we have to save our passes and addresses and amounts in personal computer i mean does the hackers try to steal all in blockchain directly or go to personlal comuters and a change in blockchain need to ocurr in like 4000 net work computers its a very diff thing


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: majeis on April 21, 2015, 10:30:27 AM
> How would you “accidentally execute” a sequence of bytes? Unless you're using something similar to eval, which then it's not accidental anymore.

Well, that's how injection attacks work. A client would naively try to read the data, and the data would contain an escape sequence followed by the equivalent of "eval" on the target operation system or hardware architecture. It doesn't seem impossible as a conceptual attack.

Keyword "naively." Publicly available data on the internet isn't really the problem since that's what the internet basically is. The problem is client-side whatever it is and that's on the end-user, not the fault of the network itself.

https://i.imgur.com/AfpOvzx.png


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: S4VV4S on April 22, 2015, 06:58:09 AM
I think you guys are very sentimental about the subject.

Interpol is right : http://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2015/03/27/bitcoin-blockchain-pollution-a-criminal-opportunity/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2015/03/27/bitcoin-blockchain-pollution-a-criminal-opportunity/)

Quote
it could be abused to store malware control mechanisms or provide access to illicit content such as child abuse images that would be extremely difficult to take down.

And when that happens (coz it will) kiss your Bitcoins goodbye.

Oh, and don't say how are they going to do it.
If they make any kind of purchase/exchange with BTC illegal and fine it with lifetime in jail,
no business or exchange will take your Bitcoins.
Then you will have to turn to a black market but we have all seen how they all fell like flies haven't we?

Once again, stop being so sentimental and pay attention to the details.
Interpol is trying to protect (your) children from abuse, and that is just one example of what the blockchain is capable of.



Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: shorena on April 22, 2015, 12:25:38 PM
I think you guys are very sentimental about the subject.

Interpol is right : http://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2015/03/27/bitcoin-blockchain-pollution-a-criminal-opportunity/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2015/03/27/bitcoin-blockchain-pollution-a-criminal-opportunity/)

Quote
it could be abused to store malware control mechanisms or provide access to illicit content such as child abuse images that would be extremely difficult to take down.

And when that happens (coz it will) kiss your Bitcoins goodbye.

Again, any decentralized storage system is vulnerable in that regard.

Oh, and don't say how are they going to do it.
If they make any kind of purchase/exchange with BTC illegal and fine it with lifetime in jail,

Interpol does not make laws. They can not make anything illegal or legal. They are an organ to promote cooperation between police organisations in different countries. Who is this mysterious "they" you are referring to that can change all laws on a global scale?

no business or exchange will take your Bitcoins.

Under the assumption that bitcoin have just been declare illegal, which business and/or exchange would be left? None, because all exchanges and business would now be bankrupt, unless they do not actually hold bitcoins.

Then you will have to turn to a black market but we have all seen how they all fell like flies haven't we?

Once again, stop being so sentimental and pay attention to the details.
Interpol is trying to protect (your) children from abuse, and that is just one example of what the blockchain is capable of.

Blatantly declaring Bitcoin's blockchain vulnerable is not protecting any (my) children. In order to store the picture of an abused child, the picture must have been taken previously, thus the abuse must have already happened. Attacking the symptoms is not a solution. I doubt there is much of the content they are warning about in the blockchain. The main reason for this believe is that there are other, cheaper and more discrete ways. The only advantage in using the blockchain I could see is that it would be very hard to erase the data. On the other hand criminals tend to have a reason to avoid this very property as it would also make it very hard to hide their tracks.


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: Snail2 on April 22, 2015, 01:00:32 PM
I consider their research as "marketing activity" :).


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: ensurance982 on April 22, 2015, 02:10:59 PM
CIYAM:
> You'd need some specially created Bitcoin client that uses something like OP_RETURN data as an executable...

That's actually an interesting idea. If you embedded some injection-like escape sequence, followed by assembly code tailored to a specific microprocessor set, then could it possibly be executed by any standard client when it is "naively" attempting to access the OP_RETURN data? Clients / nodes written in loosely-typed languages seem like they might be more vulnerable...

How would you “accidentally execute” a sequence of bytes? Unless you're using something similar to eval, which then it's not accidental anymore.

You could always go and try to cause some buffer overflows. Back in the good old days it was quite common to try and write some executable code into the memory, build a large enough landing pad, and whooops: your code gets executed :)


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: AtheistAKASaneBrain on April 22, 2015, 02:11:39 PM
Typical corporate FUD. And I don't think this is relevant for wallets that do not store your blockchain, and then again people running those that do (nodes) are knowledgeable enough to not get their computers infected.
Most average joes will be using blockchain.info or so, to deal with their BTC anyway.


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: S4VV4S on April 23, 2015, 04:49:18 PM
Again, any decentralized storage system is vulnerable in that regard.

True. One can not argue with that.

Interpol does not make laws. They can not make anything illegal or legal. They are an organ to promote cooperation between police organisations in different countries. Who is this mysterious "they" you are referring to that can change all laws on a global scale?

Interpol does not make laws, it follows them, and if they have orders to do something, they do it Internationally (or at least where Interpol has juristiction).
Also, even though the word "organ" might be correct, the word organization is the preffered choice. "Organ" may refer to a body part such as a penis.

Under the assumption that bitcoin have just been declare illegal, which business and/or exchange would be left? None, because all exchanges and business would now be bankrupt, unless they do not actually hold bitcoins.

True and False at the same time.
They will - yes they will - attempt to get some of their money back, and that means the black markets.

Blatantly declaring Bitcoin's blockchain vulnerable is not protecting any (my) children. In order to store the picture of an abused child, the picture must have been taken previously, thus the abuse must have already happened. Attacking the symptoms is not a solution. I doubt there is much of the content they are warning about in the blockchain. The main reason for this believe is that there are other, cheaper and more discrete ways. The only advantage in using the blockchain I could see is that it would be very hard to erase the data. On the other hand criminals tend to have a reason to avoid this very property as it would also make it very hard to hide their tracks.

I don't think you understood what I said, nor what Interpol said.
The blockchain is NOT vulnerable, on the contrary it's so solid that an abuser can host child abuse images on it indefinetely (and other malicious code).
Apart from that, Bitcoin gives ways for abusers to use it over money (fiat) due to it's (supposed) anonymity.
Also, criminals should not have ANY worries exploiting the blockchain because..... you know: coin mixers -> one time use address -> crime done and there forever.....
If that address is never to be used again then there is no chance they can track them.


Now, can you please stop being so "smart" and defensive about Bitcoin and pay attention to the details?
Or are you too busy playing bullshit ARG games (or covering up for the con artist) that you do not read between the lines?


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: S4VV4S on April 23, 2015, 05:16:54 PM
I could have sworn a similar article was posted last year and quickly debunked, I may have to do some digging.

This is more recent - March '15: http://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2015/03/27/bitcoin-blockchain-pollution-a-criminal-opportunity/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2015/03/27/bitcoin-blockchain-pollution-a-criminal-opportunity/)


Title: Re: Kaspersky and INTERPOL Say Blockchain is Vulnerable
Post by: manselr on April 23, 2015, 05:29:32 PM
Bitcoin is a booming market and Kaspersky  makes their money off fear of electronic attacks. Probably Interpol with get a commission by supporting each other's claims to pump future Kaspersky products.