Bitcoin Forum

I would think this could go without saying but Tangible Cryptography will not reveal information about our clients unless compelled by a warrant or court order.  We have been receiving emails lately inquiring if a certain "person of interest" has used our service in the past, and if so how much, and if we have any information useful in tracking him down.

Just to be absolutely clear and hopefully put an end to these requests:
We will not reveal any information about our clients, not even confirmation if someone has or has not used our services in the past.  Any such requests will be ignored. Repeated requests will be reported to the originating ISP as harassing.

The only exception would be if we are legally obligated to do so by a warrant or court order and even then only after speaking to legal counsel.

Thank You,

Management
Tangible Cryptography

Thanks for the statement. I'd also like to say that any "business" that does otherwise, (i.e. any business that will give out such information without a court order) should be considered scamming scum and should not be allowed to continue operating.

This is could become an expensive legal battle but you can likely pass on the costs to your customers because they will be willing to pay for the increased privacy you provide.

You should keep in mind that, according to this law professor and former criminal defense attorney (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc), there is absolutely no reason to either communicate or cooperate with any law enforcement as anything you say can and will be used against you and even talking to them gives them an opportunity to commit perjury, which law enforcement officers do on a regular basis, that could have a detrimental effect on you.

So maintaining your right to silence, in the absence of a court order or warrant, is the only pragmatic path. The other pragmatic path would be to agree to talk if they offer you full and complete immunity (but make sure you have legal counsel to help craft the agreement).

Of course, you already know or should know the importance of making sure all your data is powerfully encrypted and secure with plausible deniability given the case In re Boucher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_re_Boucher).

Currently, be sure you already have your legal defense(s) in place.

One thing that is so interesting about Bitcoin, and the legal battle that will come out of this, is the question: What is Bitcoin?

This is an important question because you are buying and selling whatever the heck this thing is. Consequently, it does not look so much like foreign currency exchange but perhaps more like paying for a PDF, ebook, piece of furniture or for personal services like a haircut?

For example, if you go buy a new couch or eBook from Amazon or hire an independent contractor for $2,000 then the merchant is not required to perform any KYC/AML, etc.

Then there is the issue about whether the person who buys or sells this nebulous and undefined thing is the same person that you transfer FRN$. This has to do with the GPU license on the Bitcoin source code, the lack of formal ownership over addresses and the plausible deniability that comes from anyone who has the private keys being able to 'control' a particular wallet.

Of course, none of this should be considered legal advice and I highly recommend you have competent legal counsel.

Speaking to legal counsel != fighting the court order.

+1

+1 from me too.

This is how respectable businesses ought to operate. However, there might be complications for Tangible Cryptography specifically because of all the legislation in place everywhere regarding money laundering and reporting. Surely legal advise on the matter is a must.

We at Bittalk Media Ltd, the publisher of Bitcoin Magazine, operate under very similar principles as stipulated in OP. Luckily for us money laundering related legislation is clearly not applicably to any sales of magazines, so we have no liabilities on that side.

Moreover, as an UK based company we have statutory obligations under Data Protection Act 1998 to take reasonable measures to safeguard personal information of our customers. We are already very careful with this and there is a series of measures planned to be implemented soon to further improve our information security policies.

You mean no one tries to launder magazines ?  :o

Tried it with mine to enhance the print quality  :o

I doubt Tangible Cryptography would be in a position to fight the court order anyway.  If someone wanted Tangible Cryptography's customer list, it'd be easier to subpoena PayPal or Bank of America.

That would only show where FRN$ funds went; but not where bitcoins came from.

TangibleCryptography, thanks for making this statement! It's a good sign. I'm curious now though. Do you keep customer lists? transaction details? If yes, for how long?
What's your data retention policy like? Do you print out hard copy records if you keep records (which I'm going to assume you keep)?

And if printed out do you have them copied via hard to read handwriting in crayon to a placemat and then the original physical copy destroyed and electronic copies deleted?  :D

TC, can you offer an opt-in system for customer information deletion after, say, 10 days?

Edit: VVV Cool, good to know

No.  We will be adding a "auto archive" option which will remove the records from the the website after 30 days and will allow the user to archive their sales order at any point.  We will retain offline electronic records for three years.  We are a registered LLC and file pay taxes on our profits.  We need to retain records to show our basis for transactions.  In answering the question above we don't keep paper records.  For cash based tx we keep receipts but they only refer to the order #.   Our sales records are in an offline encrypted MS SQL database.  We keep off site backups which are also encrypted.

I'm a little confused. I thought bitcoin is %100 completely legal?

Who said it wasn't legal?

The legalities surrounding Bitcoin are grey when it comes to exchanges and companies operating with Bitcoin. Those companies have to make sure there business model allows them to operate in the country/jurisdiction in which they do.

Customers purchasing Bitcoin are 100% safe and all good, nothing to do with you.

AFAIK, it's legal, just not really defined by the law.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Correct.  That is a good way of explaining it.  I don't think that lack of definition will remain forever though.  As Bitcoin gets larger it will be increasingly difficult for governments to simply pretend it away.  Governments around the world will define Bitcoin because that is the first step in regulating it. 

The OP was specifically about "outsiders" asking for information.  As an example at the time the OP was written we had received about fifty requests on if a certain ponzi scammer had used our service.  We don't provide information about our clients.  We won't confirm if a persons has or hasn't used our service.    If someone feels they need information on our clients they should obtain a court order.

We will comply with the law, and obviously as the law evolves our position will have to evolve.  If your reporting requirements change in the future due to new laws or regulation we will be sure to keep our clients informed. 

This will be incredibly difficult to do because it will be like regulating air guitars (http://themonetaryfuture.blogspot.com/2011/11/air-guitars-and-bitcoin-regulation.html). Any statute trying to define a 'bitcoin' would easily void for vagueness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Void_for_vagueness) and rule of lenity. I would hate to be a prosecuting attorney because any statute crafted would look like swiss cheese with holes large enough for the other advocate to drive an 18 wheeler through.

Well that is certainly your opinion and if true then no Bitcoin related business will ever be regulated.  I however don't share that optimism.  It may be a while but governments will attempt to at least control the edges of the Bitcoin economy (brokers, exchanges, major merchants accepting Bitcoins, etc). The air guitar concept could apply to a lot of intangible things (insurance, gambling, investments, money transfer, etc) and the lack of tangibility hasn't stopped governments from regulating and controlling. That is what governments do.  They control.  That is all they do.  They always seek to control.  You can't do that without definition.  Still I hope I am wrong and will be pleasantly surprised if I am but I seriously doubt I am.

I would point out even your link seems to express the same idea

Entities like Tangible Cryptography which interface between the Bitcoin world and traditional fiat currency world will probably be subject to more regulation in the future.  It is what governments do. 

Yes, this is true.

This is why we all need to work together. Tangible, BitInstant, AurumXChange, ect.

We are all in the same boat.

Like Gerald said, I'd rather a bigger pie then fight over slices in the current one.