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Title: ~ Post by: Gyrsur on August 23, 2012, 03:25:55 PM ~
Title: Re: Goal of Bitcoin (in general)? Post by: mobile4ever on August 23, 2012, 03:37:39 PM I'm familiar with the open source community late in the nineties as Linux becomes popular and loved the spirit of the people back then. With Bitcoin it is a bit comparable but the difference Bitcoin is money and money has a attraction for a special kind of people which I don't like so much. Greedy humans which has no mind for public weal and which are seeking always their personal advantage. I won't talk about socialism but a healthy community needs ethics and people which live out these ethics. In the last months Bitcoin went more and more in the direction of these people. This is my own feeling if I read the topics in the forum. There are a few people and companies which live the spirit of open source and combine it with the nature of money which is well because we all need money for living. But the massive amount of people in this forum which are seeking permanently opportunities to make a quick (dirty) Bitcoin sucks really! So what should the goal of the Bitcoin open source community be? What are their aims for the next year? I'm still missing a kind of masterplan because a community need this to grow up even if this community is distributed like Bitcoin. Thoughts are welcome. Cheers! The goal: Freedom from the control of greedy people. Bitcoin is a tool to make a direct payment without the need of a "middleman". When a small group of middlemen have taken fees while they take control over a large group of people the outcome is repeating economic depressions. Men can not handle too much power. Bitcoin is not going to solve greed, but it can bring more freedom. As a spoon is not to be blamed for making people fat, Bitcoin is not to be blamed for making people greedy. Title: Re: Goal of Bitcoin (in general)? Post by: Graet on August 23, 2012, 03:43:09 PM I'm familiar with the open source community late in the nineties as Linux becomes popular and loved the spirit of the people back then. With Bitcoin it is a bit comparable but the difference Bitcoin is money and money has a attraction for a special kind of people which I don't like so much. Greedy humans which has no mind for public weal and which are seeking always their personal advantage. I won't talk about socialism but a healthy community needs ethics and people which live out these ethics. In the last months Bitcoin went more and more in the direction of these people. This is my own feeling if I read the topics in the forum. There are a few people and companies which live the spirit of open source and combine it with the nature of money which is well because we all need money for living. But the massive amount of people in this forum which are seeking permanently opportunities to make a quick (dirty) Bitcoin sucks really! So what should the goal of the Bitcoin open source community be? What are their aims for the next year? I'm still missing a kind of masterplan because a community need this to grow up even if this community is distributed like Bitcoin. Thoughts are welcome. Cheers! The goal: Freedom from the control of greedy people. Bitcoin is a tool to make a direct payment without the need of a "middleman". When a small group of middlemen have taken fees while they take control over a large group of people the outcome is repeating economic depressions. Men can not handle too much power. Bitcoin is not going to solve greed, but it can bring more freedom. As a spoon is not to be blamed for making people fat, Bitcoin is not to be blamed for making people greedy. Title: Re: Goal of Bitcoin (in general)? Post by: Graet on August 23, 2012, 04:02:31 PM yep, every community/race/occupation has its good and bad people.
when something has value it draws bad people - they try and find easy methods to take things of value from good people. unfortunately in our internet world people with a complaint shout (post lots more) much louder than happy people I guess Bitcoin is like a micrcosm of the real world :) Title: Re: Goal of Bitcoin (in general)? Post by: impulse on August 23, 2012, 04:03:39 PM The goal: Freedom from the control of greedy people. Bitcoin is a tool to make a direct payment without the need of a "middleman". When a small group of middlemen have taken fees while they take control over a large group of people the outcome is repeating economic depressions. Men can not handle too much power. Bitcoin is not going to solve greed, but it can bring more freedom. As a spoon is not to be blamed for making people fat, Bitcoin is not to be blamed for making people greedy. +1 99% of what all internet technologies do is remove middlemen. Most of the time these middlemen add cost, corruption and inefficiency to the ecosystem that they live in. Record companies, the postal service, news and media organizations, retailers, and now banks are all middlemen that can be removed with the creation of new technologies. This new system operates with increased efficiency and creates new opportunities, but also introduces new problems. It will take time to solve these new problems, but in the end we will all be better off for it. Title: Re: Goal of Bitcoin (in general)? Post by: nevafuse on August 23, 2012, 04:20:18 PM Greedy humans which has no mind for public weal and which are seeking always their personal advantage. There's nothing wrong with greedy humans. Is Bill Gates greedy for developing & selling Windows? These people fill a need that people pay for voluntarily. The real issue is people that try to take away that power - politicians. Politicians don't want you to choose between OSX & Windows. They want you to "choose" what company gives them the most money by creating rules that limit competition. The founding fathers are to blame when they created a republic instead of a democracy. The politicians vote - we don't. It is a lot harder to bribe 150 million people versus 500 people in Washington. Bitcoin is the answer to that problem. If you don't like the government, stop paying. Bitcoin is the equivalent to having all your money in your front pocket that no one can see or steal. Once we starve the beast, we can start over by putting ourselves in control. Title: Re: Goal of Bitcoin (in general)? Post by: mobile4ever on August 23, 2012, 04:25:58 PM imagine you are new in this forum and take a look around and read some of the topics. what will your impression be at the moment or if you will also in the last months with all the bitcoinica and pirate and anything else issues. you won't tell me that this is a healthy, non greedy community with a good spirit? EDIT: and second where is the masterplan for the next months and years. what are the goals of the engineers and developers? or is it still more experimental like Gavin said in an interview and if ASIC comes into the game it is a sign that Bitcoin slowly grows. I would say it would be easy for any newcomer to be disappointed with any hard project. The internet is just a part of the "real world" even though people call the offline part the "real world". (?) Those who fail generally at hard projects will fail in the Bitcoin realm as well. But if they focus on the negative without keeping their eyes on the positive, the end goal, → freedom, will fade in importance. Balance is key. Your masterplan question is better answered by Gavin Andresen. I am a budding developer and my goal for Bitcoin is to secure it from being tampered with. The power of ASIC will be a temporary change in the Bitcoin economy in my opinion and perhaps bring that last BTC to the world a bit faster. ☺ To any developer who knows the gravity of what they are doing: http://www.themillionairesecrets.net/images/2008/07/never-give-up.jpg Title: Re: Goal of Bitcoin (in general)? Post by: mobile4ever on August 23, 2012, 04:35:24 PM 99% of what all internet technologies do is remove middlemen. Most of the time these middlemen add cost, corruption and inefficiency to the ecosystem that they live in. Exactly. Another example is Job Services, they get millions for what LinkedIn is now doing. We live in an age of transition. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GooNhOIMY0 Machines exist to make our lives easier, but some make machines just for destruction. That is, they are created with an evil purpose. When I die, I want to know that I helped man to advance, not regress. Title: Re: Goal of Bitcoin (in general)? Post by: evoorhees on August 23, 2012, 04:43:43 PM The "goal" of Bitcoin is to privatize money.
With privitization, comes freedom. Those who wish to work without profit, for some "community good", can do so unmolested. Those who wish to work for profit, for some selfish ambition, can do so unmolested. Bitcoin enables whatever goals each individual has, to be pursued only to the limits of that individual's capabilities. With Bitcoin, no individual may dictate to any other what he may do with his wealth, and men must resort to the nobler pursuits of negotiation, persuasion, production, and reason, if they wish to get their way. In a Bitcoin world, you needn't be frightened by people seeking profits, for the only manner by which they can take something from you, is for you to give it voluntarily to them. Bitcoin is a brilliant, civilized, voluntary aparatus of exchange. Title: Re: Goal of Bitcoin (in general)? Post by: JoelKatz on August 23, 2012, 04:43:43 PM Look at what the Internet has done for information distribution. Today, even the world's most repressive governments are finding it almost impossible to keep their people from reading media from around the globe and sharing their experiences with the rest of humanity. This is having a profound pro-freedom effect around the world today. Humanity has taken a giant step forward.
Distributed, decentralized currencies like Bitcoin will do the same thing for finances. Today, many people around the world are essentially held hostage by government-controlled currencies. The government can control who can produce new currency and how much and can impose tight regulations on how money is stored and transferred. However, systems that evolve from Bitcoin will almost certainly change this in the next 40 years or so. The rich and powerful will not be able to use governments to control who can create money, how much they can create, how it can be transferred, and so on. People will soon be as free to store and exchange money as they wish as they now are to exchange information. Title: Re: Goal of Bitcoin (in general)? Post by: evoorhees on August 23, 2012, 04:46:20 PM Look at what the Internet has done for information distribution. Today, even the world's most repressive governments are finding it almost impossible to keep their people from reading media from around the globe and sharing their experiences with the rest of humanity. This is having a profound pro-freedom effect around the world today. Humanity has taken a giant step forward. Distributed, decentralized currencies like Bitcoin will do the same thing for finances. Today, many people around the world are essentially held hostage by government-controlled currencies. The government can control who can produce new currency and how much and can impose tight regulations on how money is stored and transferred. However, systems that evolve from Bitcoin will almost certainly change this in the next 40 years or so. The rich and powerful will not be able to use governments to control who can create money, how much they can create, how it can be transferred, and so on. People will soon be as free to store and exchange money as they wish as they now are to exchange information. I've never seen a JoelKatz post I didn't like. Title: Re: Goal of Bitcoin (in general)? Post by: Elwar on August 23, 2012, 04:46:25 PM Bitcoin is like giving guns to every human in the world.
On the upside, it empowers people. On the downside, it empowers people. Title: Re: Goal of Bitcoin (in general)? Post by: waspoza on August 23, 2012, 04:55:50 PM I've never seen a JoelKatz post I didn't like. I've never seen a JoelKatz or evoorhees post I didn't like. :D Title: Re: Goal of Bitcoin (in general)? Post by: benjamindees on August 23, 2012, 06:58:20 PM The most you can expect is an equal opportunity and the absence of aggression. Bitcoin mostly provides that. At the least, it's a vast improvement over the status quo, so the question should be "what's the better option?"
Title: Re: Goal of Bitcoin (in general)? Post by: knight22 on August 23, 2012, 07:38:58 PM Bitcoin can free us from the banking system witch is the best thing on earth. As said before, bitcoin is the symbol of financial freedom for all people who trust the protocol. Now, what will you do with that freedom? It's only up to us to not fuck it up.
Title: Re: Goal of Bitcoin (in general)? Post by: DeathAndTaxes on August 23, 2012, 07:59:52 PM Bitcoin is to money as the internet is to communication.
Title: Re: Goal of Bitcoin (in general)? Post by: Timbert33 on August 23, 2012, 08:32:34 PM The goal: Freedom from the control of greedy people. Bitcoin is a tool to make a direct payment without the need of a "middleman". When a small group of middlemen have taken fees while they take control over a large group of people the outcome is repeating economic depressions. Men can not handle too much power. Bitcoin is not going to solve greed, but it can bring more freedom. As a spoon is not to be blamed for making people fat, Bitcoin is not to be blamed for making people greedy. +1 99% of what all internet technologies do is remove middlemen. Most of the time these middlemen add cost, corruption and inefficiency to the ecosystem that they live in. Record companies, the postal service, news and media organizations, retailers, and now banks are all middlemen that can be removed with the creation of new technologies. This new system operates with increased efficiency and creates new opportunities, but also introduces new problems. It will take time to solve these new problems, but in the end we will all be better off for it. Pretty accurate. Only thing I disagree with is the postal service being an "unnecessary middleman"? I mean... delivering packages is a legitimate service. Unless you're talking about sending letters and documents, which is unnecessary due to pdf and e-mail. Title: Re: Goal of Bitcoin (in general)? Post by: kiba on August 23, 2012, 09:22:42 PM ...Bitcoin world domination!
Title: Re: Goal of Bitcoin (in general)? Post by: Phinnaeus Gage on August 23, 2012, 09:42:17 PM Look at what the Internet has done for information distribution. Today, even the world's most repressive governments are finding it almost impossible to keep their people from reading media from around the globe and sharing their experiences with the rest of humanity. This is having a profound pro-freedom effect around the world today. Humanity has taken a giant step forward. Distributed, decentralized currencies like Bitcoin will do the same thing for finances. Today, many people around the world are essentially held hostage by government-controlled currencies. The government can control who can produce new currency and how much and can impose tight regulations on how money is stored and transferred. However, systems that evolve from Bitcoin will almost certainly change this in the next 40 years or so. The rich and powerful will not be able to use governments to control who can create money, how much they can create, how it can be transferred, and so on. People will soon be as free to store and exchange money as they wish as they now are to exchange information. +1 From the very first day I started reading this forum, I've enjoyed reading your post, Joel, albeit your avatar has always reminded me of Cro-Magnon. ~Bruno~ Title: Re: Goal of Bitcoin (in general)? Post by: JoelKatz on August 23, 2012, 10:32:17 PM From the very first day I started reading this forum, I've enjoyed reading your post, Joel, albeit your avatar has always reminded me of Cro-Magnon. Thanks. I do have a large, flat forehead and people have frequently made those kinds of jokes about it. That picture does accentuate it though. It's not quite as dramatic as it seems in that picture.I think I'll switch to the picture from Bitcoin Magazine. That was taken by son, and is a typically awful picture of me. But some kind of magic was done to it before publication that makes me look awesome. (Though you can't tell that I'm wearing a Bitcoin Miner T-shirt.) Update: Done. ;D Title: Re: Goal of Bitcoin (in general)? Post by: Domrada on August 23, 2012, 10:36:25 PM Bitcoin is to money as the internet is to communication. Bitcoin is Galt's Gulch in Cyberspace. Title: Re: Goal of Bitcoin (in general)? Post by: owdbetts on August 23, 2012, 10:43:10 PM imagine you are new in this forum and take a look around and read some of the topics. what will your impression be at the moment or if you will also in the last months with all the bitcoinica and pirate and anything else issues. you won't tell me that this is a healthy, non greedy community with a good spirit? So far I think: 1. Bitcoin is an awesome piece of technology, and Gavin and co are doing an excellent job at maintaining and advancing it. 2. This place is an absoltely aweful advertisement for Bitcoin. Full of people ripping people to pieces for daring to point out that if an offer seems to good to be true then it almost certainly is too good to be true, for a start. This place is a hotbed to people soliciting for schemes that are criminally illegal. Not to mention that civil conversation is non-existent in pretty much every part of this forum. If I ran this forum I would be thinking about shutting it down, for the good of Bitcoin. ETA: To be fair, I have learnt a lot from reading this forum. It probably does server a useful purpose at the moment - but it is certainly not a friendly place. Title: Re: Goal of Bitcoin (in general)? Post by: julz on August 23, 2012, 11:01:09 PM To put people in control of their own money.
Title: Re: Goal of Bitcoin (in general)? Post by: acoindr on August 23, 2012, 11:01:37 PM imagine you are new in this forum and take a look around and read some of the topics. what will your impression be at the moment or if you will also in the last months with all the bitcoinica and pirate and anything else issues. you won't tell me that this is a healthy, non greedy community with a good spirit? So far I think: 1. Bitcoin is an awesome piece of technology, and Gavin and co are doing an excellent job at maintaining and advancing it. 2. This place is an absoltely aweful advertisement for Bitcoin. Full of people ripping people to pieces for daring to point out that if an offer seems to good to be true then it almost certainly is too good to be true, for a start. This place is a hotbed to people soliciting for schemes that are criminally illegal. Not to mention that civil conversation is non-existent in pretty much every part of this forum. If I ran this forum I would be thinking about shutting it down, for the good of Bitcoin. ETA: To be fair, I have learnt a lot from reading this forum. It probably does server a useful purpose at the moment - but it is certainly not a friendly place. Well, this forum hasn't changed much in many months. I think it's a testament to bitcoins that their price can still rise LOL Thanks for sharing your perspective. :D Title: Re: Goal of Bitcoin (in general)? Post by: jothan on August 23, 2012, 11:35:57 PM Bitcoin in itself has no goal. This is like the age-old "What is the meaning of life ?" question.
Bringing down the federal reserve and empowering people are just nice side-effects. Title: Re: Goal of Bitcoin (in general)? Post by: Transisto on August 25, 2012, 07:22:03 AM Having an extensive ignore list help a lot my readings here.
Taking a plunge at /Speculation/ from time to time is the best for finding new users to ignore. Title: Re: Goal of Bitcoin (in general)? Post by: kokjo on August 25, 2012, 07:53:43 AM the goal of bitcoin is not and has never been to bring freedom to money, be anarchistic, or in anyway be a revolutionary force against the establishment. it is on the other hand these ideas the fostered bitcoin in the first place.
the goal of bitcoin is to explore how currencies can function in a system of equal peers, and how to solve problems no one have solved before. in bitcoin's case this goal is accomplished by a blockchain which timestamp transactions in batches, and is based on that on computationally hard to make a fake block. it could be accomplished by some other means like proof of stake(which again is a blockchain layout), or by some awesome-math-stuff that have yet to be discovered. the goal of bitcoin is therefor not a political one, but a technological one. (btw. if the governement asked me to pay taxes on bitcoins i have earned i would happily pay them. but as it stands now, i have no idea how to do so, so i don't...) Title: Re: Goal of Bitcoin (in general)? Post by: n8rwJeTt8TrrLKPa55eU on August 25, 2012, 04:32:43 PM I'll go to the source and paraphrase Mr. Nakamoto: the goal for Bitcoin is to provide a functional and widespread peer-to-peer electronic cash system, which would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution.
His original emphasis was on disintermediation and removal of third parties from monetary transactions. No explicit politics. No kicking of hornet's nests. Having said that, the beauty of the system is that, while it can be used to make a political statement for those so inclined, it can also be evangelized as a non-threatening, supplemental, more efficient, technology/currency...peacefully extending and abiding by the rules of existing regulated financial and political frameworks. The fact that with each additional user, Bitcoin erodes and undermines those existing financial and political frameworks...well, that's just a bonus ;). Title: Re: Goal of Bitcoin (in general)? Post by: cbeast on August 25, 2012, 04:50:50 PM Unity.
Title: Re: Goal of Bitcoin (in general)? Post by: goodlord666 on August 26, 2012, 04:25:36 PM Fun.
Title: Re: Goal of Bitcoin (in general)? Post by: zveda2000 on August 27, 2012, 04:34:02 AM Well re the OP's concern about the type of community this forum fosters, I think many people realise we live in a deeply troubled society, and bitcoin is not going to cure that in a few months. Everybody that has grown up in the extreme capitalism of the 2000s would have to be pretty resilient to keep their civility.
Anyway I don't think we should be too discouraged about a lack of a general plan or the type of stuff that goes on in the bitcoin community. It would be like asking what is the plan for the internet during the 90s. BTW, as pointed out by Rick Falkvinge of the Swedish pirate party, one of the main catalysts for the internet's growth in the early days was the porn industry. Only later did many 'wholesome' businesses find they can make use of the internet. Similarly, when Bram Cohen created bittorrent, he gave away free porn in order to get people to join in. Eventually though bittorrent and the internet became about a lot more than just porn. The same way bitcoin will become about a lot more than drugs and gambling, I hope. Title: Re: Goal of Bitcoin (in general)? Post by: tvbcof on September 28, 2012, 04:40:25 PM I share the OP's disappointment at the makeup of the community. But when I sit back and think about things I find that it is completely anticipated given the nature of the solution and space in which the solution exists. They say that what does not kill you will make you stronger and that will hopefully be the case for Bitcoin.
I am unimpressed by the various intellectual luminaries here who assert as fact the nature and goals of the Bitcoin solution. Unless they have had deep philosophical conversations with the creator(s) of the solution, their assertions are no more valid than my own. The evolution of the solution may take some twists and turns which is utterly surprising to them and not at all in line with the orthodoxy of their philosophical schools of thought. If it does, that may be as much by design as by accident. edit: 2-char fix |
