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Title: A Public Plea for Civility ~by BinaryMage & posted here via P. Gage (Bruno) Post by: Phinnaeus Gage on August 25, 2012, 12:49:15 AM The following is the first post of thread baring the same name as this thread, sans the author's name. The original can be found here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=103044.0
A poster on that thread suggested that this should be made available in Newbie, hence me posting it here, and thus allowing any new Bitcoiners an opportunity to reply to such a great post. Full Disclosure: I probably am guilty of at least a couple of the talking points. I. Introduction Over the past few months, I've observed a general trend on this forum that I think is rather disturbing. We have always disagreed and debated on a vast variety of subjects, but more and more often of late those debates seem to turn into or in some cases start as nothing but 'flame wars', to use the colloquial term. This forum, once a reasonable facsimile of a haven for intellectual and civil discussion, has mutated into a wasteland of mud-slinging, baseless accusations, fear-mongering, utterly nonsensical FUD, mob mentalities, and worst of all, xenophobia. This is most pronounced in the Marketplace and associated sub-forums, but seems to be permeating throughout the extent of these boards. II. Why The Marketplace Matters Some of you probably avoid the Marketplace altogether, and wonder if it really matters. Regardless of where you prefer to spend your time, the fact remains that Bitcoin is a currency. Trade is necessary for both a healthy economy and, perhaps more importantly, recruitment of new users. III. Mud-slinging We all disagree with each other. If we didn't, we'd have nothing to talk about. But disagreement does not have to translate into insults. Ad hominem reasoning not only fails to provide any result of worth for either involved party; it poisons the general topic of discussion and makes the thread useless for any future or current readers. One simple insult can create multiple threads of incoherent flaming. IV. Baseless Accusations These threads tend to sound like tabloid articles. Inciting headlines, extravagant claims, and no logical evidence whatsoever to back them up. If you have a serious accusation and want results, please make a factual claim and back it up (Example (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102798.0)). Factual and civil trade disagreement threads have a much higher rate of resolution. Remember, whether the counterparty is a scammer or not, they are a human being, and a successful dispute resolution is much more likely if you treat them like one. V. Fear-mongering This sometimes goes hand-in-hand with the above, but sometimes not insomuch an accusation as chaos-inciting content, often simply links to other threads with an eye-catching title attached. First of all, we do not need multiple different threads to discuss the same thing. Second, if you're going to make extravagant claims, at least take the time to make them yourself. VI. Utterly Nonsensical FUD Also known as spam. I receive quite enough of this in my email inbox. If you don't have anything useful or intelligent to post, don't post. It's as simple as that. VII. Mob Mentalities Also known as the 'exponential thread growth problem'. Don't take what other people say at face value, and don't simply repeat other's sentiments. All of you have something unique to contribute to discussions. Contribute it! VIII. Xenophobia This one concerns me the most, as I think it could have far-reaching implications. Most people who read about Bitcoin and come here have read almost ubiquitously negative press discussing drugs, Ponzi schemes, and ever-imminent collapse. They decided to take a chance and investigate for themselves. What do they find? A community which refuses to do business with anyone relatively new. A community filled with animosity. Half the forums polluted with allegations of Ponzi schemes. In other words, they find exactly what the media told them to expect. Their conclusion? The media is right. Do we really want to embody what the media portrays us as? IX. Addendum: BS&T First of all, I will admit that I am most certainly not an unbiased observer. I did my research and invested into BS&T. I have no factual conclusion as to whether it is a Ponzi or not, nor do I think I have enough expertise to surmise a claim. But, regardless of whether BS&T is a ponzi, an innocent company investing in third-world medical care, or an elaborate hoax conceived by Bernie Madoff's hitherto unknown twin, endlessly fretting and arguing about it will accomplish nothing whatsoever. Those of you with convinced BS&T is a Ponzi scheme, I'm glad you're being cautious with investment. Please refrain from starting hundreds of separate threads stating nothing new whatsoever. Perhaps it is a scam, perhaps not. I know some of you have far superior wisdom which you are ever eager to share, but us mere mortals are still capable of intelligent analysis and decision-making. If BS&T truly is a Ponzi, somehow I suspect we will notice. X. Conclusion I'm just some nameless forum member writing another rant, albeit perhaps not on one of the usual subjects. All I ask is that you read and think upon it. Perhaps this won't make any difference. But it certainly wouldn't have if I didn't write it. Best regards, BinaryMage Title: Re: A Public Plea for Civility ~by BinaryMage & posted here via P. Gage (Bruno) Post by: CharlesPonzi on September 19, 2012, 11:45:37 AM Pirate was a noob.
Title: Re: A Public Plea for Civility ~by BinaryMage & posted here via P. Gage (Bruno) Post by: Chong Ciao on September 19, 2012, 12:29:36 PM Thats the truth and he not only was, he still is !
Even we newbies, coming with press transported hopes and illusions can see, that this forum is an undemocratic, inbreeding chain - letter, where moderators, heromembers are colluding to skin us off. If this is a false impression, I appologize , but then tell me , how the highest authority is allowed to leave this post uncommented: Re: Going after Trendon Shavers, Pirateat40, BTCST September 11, 2012, 12:59:43 PM #101 I don't trust any PPT operators. Theymos (who admits knowledge of and engagement in fraud) and other forum admins (shills) also helped Pirate and PPT operators by facilitating their promotion and encouraging/stickying Patrick's bogus ratings. best posts: Quote from: P4man on September 11, 2012, 12:09:03 PM How about you do a big public apology first to all the people that warned you, but that you have been shouting down and insulting for over 6 months and more importantly, to the people who trusted your judgement, but that you misled by pretending you knew more than you really did? The same goes for the rest of the pirate promo team who are now all pretending to be only victims fighting for the righteous cause. Quote from: repentance on September 11, 2012, 11:07:33 AM I'd strongly advise filing complaints with whatever information you already have and adding any extra information you have as it comes in. The longer it takes before those who can access all sorts of information about Trendon Shavers which this community cannot start investigating, the more opportunity he has to muddy the trail. I also believe that it if it was legitimate to ask Bitcoin Magazine to distance itself from Matthew, it is equally legitimate to ask the other members of GPUMax to distance themselves from Trendon and to make a public statement regarding his current role in relation to that entity and whether or not GPUMax itself had any exposure to BS&T (we know that they shared a wallet, but we have no idea to what extent the businesses may have crossed over in other ways). I doubt very much that no-one closely associated with Trendon knew what he was doing. It's likely some were complicit in his fraud. Quote from: LoupGaroux on September 10, 2012, 06:19:14 AM Will this auspicious collection of righteous souls also be going after the Pass Through operators who made a tidy little profit shilling for pirate, handling the recruitment of his victims, performing the actual transfer of his victim's funds into his scheme and now all want to so handily hide behind his skirt and claim no culpability? Seems somehow disingenuous for anyone involved as a co-conspirator to get involved in an effort to track down the bad guy. Of course, OJ claimed he was hunting for his ex-wife's killer while still wiping the warm blood off his gloves, so I guess nothing should surprise us any more. And if this particular clown car actually starts rolling... you may want to check your own records PPT folks... you had a secret clubhouse with the guy, you had ongoing secret dialog with him, it would only be reasonable to think that a gaggle of top flight biznessmen like yourselves would at least have a real name and phone number for the guy you gave $5,000,000 to, wouldn't it? And in the sense of fair warning... if anybody asks for a penny of "contribution" for this effort, you will be the straw that broke the dam, and will become target number 1 for all abuse, serious questioning, threats of uncertain but very scary harm and concentrated legal action against you. Even stepping onto the path of "creating a structure" for that kind of heaping salt into the wound smacks of wanting to dig in and grab a few coins for yourself after the major crime has been committed. And drop the potentially. If this effort isn't already exploring every possible legal avenue with full disclosure and cooperation from every PPT operator to help out the investigation on behalf of the victims that you helped create, then this is clearly a scheme for a little extra taste for the poor junior boys who didn't make out like true bandits at the big people's table. Quote from: Frankie on September 10, 2012, 08:26:26 PM Goat is doing his damnest to whitewash his history as a complicit I-know-Pirate's-business-model shill by appointing himself public prosecutor. Good luck with that, Goat, but it's a collosal mistake for anyone else to subsidize one of the leading co-conspirators to this scam. Quote from: LoupGaroux on September 11, 2012, 03:45:28 AM Quote from: Chaang Noi (Goat) ช้างน้อย on September 11, 2012, 02:46:40 AM ... I would like to say a few quick things, my stuff I have had to sell was to cover things like my insured PPT bonds. The ones I guaranteed. I did not and will not go into default like many of the other PPT operators. Some of then I think will get the scammers tag because they lied about where their money was going. That is part of the reason why they are not here IMO. Goat- it sucks to have to sell stuff to honor your obligations, but those are the realities of owning a business and offering investment opportunities. Some days you win, and some days you have to make your word be worth something, suck it up and pay out. That's the other side of the coin from when you are raking in the profits. The Scammer tag is not for participating, the Scammer tag will be for those who willfully promoted the scheme (which was the scam) were intimately involved in the scam, and do nothing to make good with the victims of the scam. Quote from: Chaang Noi (Goat) ช้างน้อย on September 11, 2012, 02:46:40 AM About opening the books, they have been opened. We have seen what was going on with many PPT operators because most of the work was done in the block chain. We still are missing some stuff and this is the sort of thing we will be looking for very soon. Good. The more transparency you can offer the better. How about a full data dump on all of the secret IRC discussions, a breakdown on what was discussed and when, and access to the private contact info you have for pirate? The datamining experts here will find things like that valuable in their search for the guilty parties. Quote from: Chaang Noi (Goat) ช้างน้อย on September 11, 2012, 02:46:40 AM There will be a thread in a few hours for collection, and that will not be managed by me. I will not even have access to what is collected. Why? What possible use does anybody investigating this have for donations? If there is an action plan developed and a fund to hire professional to investigate- that would be one thing, but just to say- "we need donations" is offensive. And the root cause of why I and others are doubting your sincerity is solving this problem. Quote from: Chaang Noi (Goat) ช้างน้อย on September 11, 2012, 02:46:40 AM I do not think I did anything wrong with my PPT because I was clear I would be giving my money to Pirate. I also explained that there were real risks investing with pirate and one should not invest more than they could lose. Then may I suggest you think again. You were a vocal cheerleader, and enthusiastic early adopter, an insider in every respect, and you made a very public case for what a wonderful place it was to invest. You then proceeded to make significant profits for yourself on channeling the funds to pirate. An explanation in fine print does not make this okay, you have a fiduciary responsibility to those who entrusted you with their money. I realize that this is a pretend world, with a pretend currency, but the real world rules of responsibility for financial transactions apply. To put a none too subtle note on it, you are a very public accessory to a crime. You have channeled a significant amount of wealth through your mechanism of investment to an crime that is well into the felony range in pretty much any jurisdiction world-wide. You don't make that go away with a lame caveat emptor. You bust your ass trying to do the right thing, you dig deep until you bleed to make good to those who trusted you, long before the Court orders you to, and you don't ever ask for a donation to assist in this matter in any way. And you might consider staying out of the limelight. The investigation and subsequent prosecution (on whatever level) of this matter is not something that you should be the face of. Quote from: Chaang Noi (Goat) ช้างน้อย on September 11, 2012, 02:46:40 AM I also have explained how and my my bonds P were sold in the TygrrBondP thread found on the forum. Not reason to explain again. If you have a question please post it in the correct thread. Thank you. And I have been a very interested observer as you have learned how to put together your ventures. Your learning process has been very public. You just need to think about tightening up on the details now that investment mogul has turned to as-yet uncharged con-conspirator. You are standing at that crossroads where you have to decide who you are- a scummy little sycophant who is trying to bluff his way out of responsibility with empty words, or a man of honor who will do the right thing, and own his mistake, be honest about it, and work to make it better. And perhaps, a small note of humility and contrition? The fish stinks from the head and some slates need to be wiped clean, if bitcoin wants to get not only the smoke and mirrors image intended by this forum but rather the factual trustworthyness, inherently given by its technical properties! Lets see how far there is still a liberty of oppinion ingrained at this place ;) Title: Re: A Public Plea for Civility ~by BinaryMage & posted here via P. Gage (Bruno) Post by: Chong Ciao on September 19, 2012, 12:42:55 PM Warning: Moderators do not remove likely scams. You must use your own brain: caveat emptor. Watch out for Ponzi schemes. Do not invest more than you can afford to lose.
Thats part of the freedom of speech of course, but moderators and administrotors with their special powers are not accountable when profiting from proven scams??? not even needing to fear that those brotherhoodly gained powers are being taken away or even questioned? Title: Re: A Public Plea for Civility ~by BinaryMage & posted here via P. Gage (Bruno) Post by: Raoul Duke on September 19, 2012, 01:16:18 PM Warning: Moderators do not remove likely scams. You must use your own brain: caveat emptor. Watch out for Ponzi schemes. Do not invest more than you can afford to lose. Keyword being likely... ::) Title: Re: A Public Plea for Civility ~by BinaryMage & posted here via P. Gage (Bruno) Post by: Chong Ciao on September 19, 2012, 05:02:23 PM Keywords : not accountable when profiting from proven scams
you moderator I see.... ::) your signature hurts my chinese eyes even more than an embedded picture... reporting to moderator even if now done by newbie is in vain I guess ;) civility in a forum canīt be promoted, when guys with limited reading ability are handed over the power to silence the newcomers |