Bitcoin Forum

Economy => Games and rounds => Topic started by: TheRealSteve on April 30, 2015, 10:36:09 PM



Title: Block Erupter USB - StickMiners Horizons - 0.1BTC prize - closed
Post by: TheRealSteve on April 30, 2015, 10:36:09 PM
Wrong forum section? Feel free to move!
Block Erupter USB - StickMiners Horizons
BTC0.1 prize money

Ah, the venerable Block Erupter USB - many a miner's first foray into ASIC Bitcoin mining.

But what are they doing now?  Collecting dust?  Fetching $5 each in flash sales only to be found on ebay for $15 each - and selling, too?  Still hashing away, forgotten behind a computer tower at a job you were fired from for completely unrelated reasons a long time ago?

Well it's time to blow the dust off and study it and other StickMiners carefully.

To celebrate the Block Erupter USB's upcoming 2-year anniversary, I'm 'giving' away BTC0.1 (a small prize for a small device) in a contest of perception and strategy.

At noon PST on 2015-05-03 (that's May 3rd, not March 5th) I will be posting a list of side views of miners, much akin to that at the bottom of this page.  Your goal will be to either deduce, or guess, which miner it is.  Each item is valued at a certain number of points based on how good your guess is.

To partake, you will only have to list your guess for each item in the list.  No tinkering, no need to mine, just your skill in perception honed through experience, wisdom or sheer dumb luck.

Prize: BTC0.1
It's not much, but it's more than you're going to get mining with one now, short of being a solo (http://solo.ckpool.org/) Bitcoin (http://bitsolo.net/) mining (http://solomining.com/) lottery (https://solo.nicehash.com/) winner :)

Rules:
1. You may enter this contest simply by posting a comment in this thread pointing out your guesses.  See the Guesses section for details.
1.1 You may enter your guesses at any time.  If somebody before you already guessed one you were going to guess, too, you should still list it in your guesses to gain those points.
1.2 Conversely, if you have a guess but are still working on others, you should consider carefully if you want to post your guess immediately as those following and seeing your guess will surely claim it as well and may have additional guesses, potentially beating you to it.
2. Only your first guess for a given item is counted.
3. You must post or PM an address to which potential winnings should be sent (at time of submission or if selected as the winner), and - lest I send BTC into a void - you must sign the following message using that address to prove receivership:
Code:
Block Erupter USB StickMiners Horizon 2015

Duration:
The list of items will be posted on 2015-05-03 at noon (12:00pm) PST, and the contest will start effectively at that time and continue until midnight PST.  Not sure when that is?  Google is ever-so-helpful: current time pst (https://www.google.com/webhp?#q=current%20time%20pst)
  • You may begin posting your guesses starting at 12:00pm PST on 2015-05-03.
  • The contest closes at 12:00am PST on 2015-05-04 (night of 3rd on 4th)

Winner selection:
The winner of the contest will be determined by the total number of points.  In the case of a tie, the participant who had that amount of points first will be declared the winner.

The list
The list will be posted in the second post of this thread at or around 12:00pm PST on 2015-05-03.  It will include various StickMiners.  Each item on the list will be labeled by a single letter: A, B, C, etc. for reference.

Guesses:
When making a guess, consult the StickMiners - overview of low-power 'usb stick' type mining hardware (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=464496.0;all) thread for naming conventions to prevent ambiguity.  Be as precise as you can, it might just land you extra points.
Guesses should be posted as:
A = Your guess for item A on the list
B = Your guess for item B
C = Your guess for item C
etc.

Points:
Each item in the list carries with it a certain number of points based on the guess.  Some will only be a single point, others - deemed by me to be more difficult to guess - will be multiple points.
The solution and number of points assigned to each item is posted in encrypted form at the end of the list.  Upon the end of this contest, the solutions + points will be posted, along with the decryption key for verification.

Transparency and fraud:
The aforementioned points post will not be edited, as evidence that points were not changed to favor certain answers.
However, it is impossible for me to guarantee that I have not given people the answers in advance.  You'll just have to trust me when I say FUN > CORRUPTION.

Contest address:
  • Winnings will be paid out from the following address: 1BEUSBkeLBLuhtdUqaZQA2S5aTou1MdvB (http://btc.blockr.io/address/info/1BEUSBkeLBLuhtdUqaZQA2S5aTou1MdvB)
  • Signature (message as in rule 3): IM69dqCFD8oTXbkIMp9B9nGF0ZGjuJSi3f6PzXVvqEWQLYTP7d19VYMutKA9myeb0xXj4+tdWQjeq74CddfXi3E= (https://brainwallet.github.io/#verify)

Disclaimer / the fine print:
I will not give feedback on this thread other than clarification of rules and technical support for posting. This contest is open to any member of the BitcoinTalk Forum.  If you're not a member, now's a good time to become one.  By participating, you agree to the rules and disclaimer.  I'm not allowed to participate.  Bummer.  friedcat is totes allowed to participate, tho'.  Guesses past the closing time will be disqualified.  I won't be responsible for guesses not qualified due to technical errors.  A single winner will emerge.  Only one entrant?  Winnar!  A participant is allowed to post multiple guess posts, however only the first guess by that person for a given item is counted.  You with the shill accounts, you know who you are, play nice.  Results and winners will be announced on 2015-05-04.  That's May 4th, not April 5th.  My decision is final and no further correspondence will be entertained unless it is entertaining.  Prizes are not exchangeable for cash or other products - I mean, by me, you can do whatever you want with it when it's yours.  I do not accept responsibility for any tax implications that may arise from the prizes or the use thereof, for you poor sods whose Bitcoin is taxed strictly. This post may receive updates in the below section at any time during the contest period.  I told you this was the fine print bit, right?




Contests:
1. Block Erupter USB mod contest 2015 - 0.3/0.15/0.05 BTC prizes (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1011866)
2. Block Erupter USB Three Days of Mining lottery 2015 - 0.1 BTC prize (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1028498)
3. Block Erupter USB - StickMiners Horizons - 0.1 BTC prize (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1043833)




Title: Block Erupter USB - StickMiners Horizons - Items list
Post by: TheRealSteve on April 30, 2015, 10:36:26 PM
The list:
Below are the side views - skylines / horizons, if you will - of the miners.

The reference column contains the letter you should use when posting your guess for that item.

Higher resolution versions of each view are available - simply click on the small view in the list.

Reference
Image
Reference
A
https://i.imgur.com/UnbHFR9.png (https://i.imgur.com/UnbHFR9.png)A



B
https://i.imgur.com/pixZUoh.png (https://i.imgur.com/pixZUoh.png)B



C
https://i.imgur.com/I07UKGo.png (https://i.imgur.com/I07UKGo.png)C



D
https://i.imgur.com/NEFsMA8.png (https://i.imgur.com/NEFsMA8.png)D



E
https://i.imgur.com/Remxiet.png (https://i.imgur.com/Remxiet.png)E



F
https://i.imgur.com/QEKXKDw.png (https://i.imgur.com/QEKXKDw.png)F



G
https://i.imgur.com/8dnhhZf.png (https://i.imgur.com/8dnhhZf.png)G



H
https://i.imgur.com/B2sDtMj.png (https://i.imgur.com/B2sDtMj.png)H



I
https://i.imgur.com/fdRL0GI.png (https://i.imgur.com/fdRL0GI.png)I



J
https://i.imgur.com/WDWRJYZ.png (https://i.imgur.com/WDWRJYZ.png)J



K
https://i.imgur.com/ycsbI5L.png (https://i.imgur.com/ycsbI5L.png)K



L
https://i.imgur.com/oC2SIZm.png (https://i.imgur.com/oC2SIZm.png)L



M
https://i.imgur.com/QHAi4Mk.png (https://i.imgur.com/QHAi4Mk.png)M



N
https://i.imgur.com/h2LXYKC.png (https://i.imgur.com/h2LXYKC.png)N



O
https://i.imgur.com/WEzu2f4.png (https://i.imgur.com/WEzu2f4.png)O



P
https://i.imgur.com/oSdeu03.png (https://i.imgur.com/oSdeu03.png)P



Q
https://i.imgur.com/OTY82Lm.png (https://i.imgur.com/OTY82Lm.png)Q



R
https://i.imgur.com/YfKzKO7.png (https://i.imgur.com/YfKzKO7.png)R



S
https://i.imgur.com/27PCnVG.png (https://i.imgur.com/27PCnVG.png)S


Remember, the best way to post your guesses is as:
A = Your guess
B = Your guess
etc.


Solutions+points signature
The below is the signature - as signed with the payment address - of the Solutions+points post to be made in the future.
Code:
IDBfGQvgz/WDmsWrrGeb6m6cuPAQyDhWnTmnu+lbYNXNChxhKN0jc/0wiP+ImghoGBu2nQkDmWlC2g73m+VMZpU=


Title: Solutions post
Post by: TheRealSteve on April 30, 2015, 10:36:38 PM
A = hex•fury [2pts]
B = Avalon Thumb [2pts] Fury Thumb or mention of DrillBit [1pt]
C = Block Erupter USB [1pt]
D = HitchHiker [3pts] (non-HitchHiker) NanoFury 1 [1pt]
E = NanoFury 2 [1pt]
F = NanoFury 6 [2pts]
G = AntMiner U1 [2pts]
H = Twin Fury [1pt]
I = bi•fury [1pt]
J = red fury [1pt]
K = twin chip fury [1pt]
L = DualMiner [1pt]
M = Avalon Nano [1pt]
N = AntMiner U2 [2pts]
O = No guess given [1pt] 'Not a StickMiner' [3pts] X-A4U [5pts]
P = iMiner [1pt]
Q = LKETC/Dragon mining Litecoin miner / pocket dragon [2pts]
R = Fury Thumb [2pts] Avalon Thumb or mention of DrillBit [1pt]
S = YellowJacket [3pts] (non-YellowJacket) NanoFury 1 [1pt]


Title: Re: Block Erupter USB - StickMiners Horizons - 0.1BTC prize
Post by: MAsterV on May 03, 2015, 12:37:27 PM
Seems like a contest.. Waiting for the post ... 

Hope to win.. :D


Title: Re: Block Erupter USB - StickMiners Horizons - 0.1BTC prize
Post by: TheRealSteve on May 03, 2015, 02:13:48 PM
Seems like a contest.. [...] Hope to win.. :D
Yes, sir - Good luck in advance :)


Title: Re: Block Erupter USB - StickMiners Horizons - 0.1BTC prize
Post by: TheRealSteve on May 03, 2015, 07:00:17 PM
List has been posted: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1043833.msg11248348#msg11248348
Good luck!


Title: Re: Block Erupter USB - StickMiners Horizons - 0.1BTC prize
Post by: helipotte on May 03, 2015, 07:17:14 PM
A = C-scape Hexfury
B = Drillbit Avthumb Avalon based
C = Block erupter 336Mh
D = Edison USB Thumb
E = Nanofury II
F = Nanofury 6
G = Antminer U1
H = Twinfury
I = C-scape BiFury
J = Blue Fury
K = Twin chip fury
L = Dualminer USB
M = Avalon Nano
N = Antminer U2
O = Nanofury prototype V1 or V2
P = iMiner
Q = U disk Wright
R = Drillbit Thumb Bitfury based
S = Cryptorig Hitchhiker


Title: Re: Block Erupter USB - StickMiners Horizons - 0.1BTC prize
Post by: Glutius on May 03, 2015, 08:19:14 PM
Here is my list

A = Bi•Fury (4GH/s) thread
https://i.imgur.com/MFsVsXD.png

H = Blue Fury
https://i.imgur.com/lVGiOd7.png

J = Twinfury thread
https://i.imgur.com/ykNgvtu.png



My wallet address: 1483Yx3AJmbLwiBSegnJS6xvtWdhWVLT1a


Good luck to other people.


Title: Re: Block Erupter USB - StickMiners Horizons - 0.1BTC prize
Post by: TheRealSteve on May 04, 2015, 01:14:47 AM
A little under 6 hours to go - remember, you can make more than one guess post if you've got further guesses :)


Title: Re: Block Erupter USB - StickMiners Horizons - 0.1BTC prize
Post by: Dunkelheit667 on May 04, 2015, 02:13:16 AM
Well, this was actually fun! ;D

Let's see...

A = hex•fury
B = Drillbit AvThumb
C = Block Erupter USB
D = it's a NanoFury 0.7 (guess the Hitch Hiker)
E = it's a NanoFury II/NF2 (guess from MoonLight Miner)
F = NanoFury 6 (NF6)
G = AntMiner U1
H = Twinfury
I = Is this a miner? Guess the ASIC is missing?
J = it's a BF1 design (guess a Red Fury)
K = Twin Chip Fury
L = DualMiner USB
M = Avalon Nano
N = AntMiner U2
O = Is this a miner? Guess a soldering accident. ;)
P = iMiner
Q = "U disk Wright" or "U-Wright" or "USB Wright" ;D
R = Fury Thumb
S = it's a NanoFury 0.7 (guess the Yellowjacket)

Have to go to bed now.

The best of luck for all participants! :)


Title: Re: Block Erupter USB - StickMiners Horizons - 0.1BTC prize
Post by: Injust on May 04, 2015, 03:31:24 AM
A = hex•fury
B = Drillbit AvThumb
C = Block Erupter USB (Satoshi Stick)
D = Hitch Hiker
E = NanoFury II (NF2)
F = NanoFury 6 (NF6)
G = AntMiner U1
H = Twinfury
I = Bi•Fury
J = Red Fury
K = Twin Chip Fury
L = DualMiner USB
M = Avalon Nano
N = AntMiner U2
O = ???
P = iMiner
Q = 'U disk Wright' or 'U-Wright' or 'USB Wright'
R = Fury Thumb
S = Yellowjacket


Title: Re: Block Erupter USB - StickMiners Horizons - 0.1BTC prize
Post by: BitBlitz on May 04, 2015, 04:43:39 AM
Heh!   And Injust turns this into a game a refinement..  ;D

A = hex•fury
B = Drillbit AvThumb
C = Block Erupter USB
D = Ice Fury
E = NanoFury II (NF2)
F = NanoFury 6 (NF6)
G = AntMiner U1
H = Twinfury
I = Bi•Fury
J = Red Fury
K = Twin Chip Fury
L = DualMiner USB
M = Avalon Nano
N = AntMiner U2
O = 101BTC USB Stick
P = iMiner
Q = 'U disk Wright' or 'U-Wright' or 'USB Wright'
R = Fury Thumb
S = Yellowjacket

....further refinements?  :P


Title: Re: Block Erupter USB - StickMiners Horizons - 0.1BTC prize
Post by: vs3 on May 04, 2015, 05:15:55 AM
I suspect it would be somewhat unfair for me to participate ...  however here is a little hint: there are different versions of the same device from different manufacturers ;)
Have fun and best of luck to all participants!


Title: contest closed
Post by: TheRealSteve on May 04, 2015, 07:27:00 AM
It's been 2015-05-04 12am PST - the contest is now officially closed, the solutions and winner will be announced later today :)


Title: Re: Block Erupter USB - StickMiners Horizons - 0.1BTC prize
Post by: TheRealSteve on May 04, 2015, 09:26:21 AM
I suspect it would be somewhat unfair for me to participate ...  however here is a little hint: there are different versions of the same device from different manufacturers ;)
That is correct - and although the contest is closed, I wouldn't mind seeing your guesses :D

Today is proving busier than expected - I'll tally up the scores later today, though from the look of things, there should be a clear winner.

As an aside - I'm thoroughly impressed by the early guesses.  I had contemplated using only the outlines rather than full color shots, but thought that would have been too difficult.. perhaps next year ;)


Title: Re: Block Erupter USB - StickMiners Horizons - 0.1BTC prize
Post by: sidehack on May 04, 2015, 03:15:34 PM
Dangit, I keep missing these. That's what I get for not working on a Sunday I guess.


Title: Re: Block Erupter USB - StickMiners Horizons - 0.1BTC prize
Post by: TheRealSteve on May 04, 2015, 03:51:20 PM
Dangit, I keep missing these. That's what I get for not working on a Sunday I guess.
That's okay - I'm thinking I'll do another one of these at some point; presumably before next year, and shift the hours about a bit to ones more amiable the east coast :)

The solutions post is now up: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1043833.msg11248349#msg11248349

Score table:
item [points]helipotte*GlutiusDunkelheit667InjustBitblitz
A: hex•fury [2]
2
0
2
2
2
B: AvThumb [2] / Drillbit [1]
2
2
2
2
C: Block EruptervUSB [1]
1
1
1
1
D: HitchHiker [3] / NanoFury [1]
1
3
3
1
E: NanoFury 2 [1]
1
1
1
1
F: NanoFury 6 [2]
2
2
2
2
G: AntMiner U1 [2]
2
2
2
2
H: Twin Fury [1]
1
0
1
1
1
I: bi•fury [1]
1
0
1
1
J: red fury [1]
0
0
1
1
1
K: twin chip fury [1]
1
1
1
1
L: DualMiner [1]
1
1
1
1
M: Avalon Nano [1]
1
1
1
1
N: AntMiner U2 [2]
2
2
2
2
O: blank [1] not-a-stickminer [2] X-A4U [5]
0
1
1
1
0
P: iMiner [1]
1
1
1
1
Q: LKETC/Dragon 'U Disk' etc. [2]
2
2
2
2
R: Fury Thumb [2] Drillbit [1]
1
1
1
1
S: YellowJacket [3] NanoFury [1]
1
3
3
3
Sum score: 
23
1
28
29
26
* helipotte opted to edit his post several times – in case of a tie, I did have edit logs to check who guessed what first.

In the end, Dunkelheit667's one miss - the bi•fury - did him in :)  Though he could also have won if he had positively stated that 'O' was not a stick miner at all.  Props to helipotte for guessing 12/19 correctly first, though that did open him up to having his guesses improved upon - something that BitBlitz may have attempted by switching things up from Injust's post.

Winner: Injust
Congratulations to Injust for winning BTC0.1 - their winnings will be paid out to the address of their choice.


Title: Re: Block Erupter USB - StickMiners Horizons - 0.1BTC prize
Post by: BitBlitz on May 04, 2015, 05:44:05 PM
Congrats Injust.

From my own list(before Dunkelheit667's post), I only picked out C, G, J, and N, since I had those laying around. 
D had me thinking for a while.  I have an IceFury, and it was a perfect match, except for the UART.  Since the board also has contacts for the larger UART, I figured the chip on the IceFury just depended on the supply available at the time of manufacture.  Long story short, I mad a good list-- worse :)



Title: Re: Block Erupter USB - StickMiners Horizons - 0.1BTC prize
Post by: Injust on May 04, 2015, 06:35:03 PM
Dangit, I keep missing these. That's what I get for not working on a Sunday I guess.
That's okay - I'm thinking I'll do another one of these at some point; presumably before next year, and shift the hours about a bit to ones more amiable the east coast :)

The solutions post is now up: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1043833.msg11248349#msg11248349

Score table:
item [points]helipotte*GlutiusDunkelheit667InjustBitblitz
A: hex•fury [2]
2
0
2
2
2
B: AvThumb [2] / Drillbit [1]
2
2
2
2
C: Block EruptervUSB [1]
1
1
1
1
D: HitchHiker [3] / NanoFury [1]
1
3
3
1
E: NanoFury 2 [1]
1
1
1
1
F: NanoFury 6 [2]
2
2
2
2
G: AntMiner U1 [2]
2
2
2
2
H: Twin Fury [1]
1
0
1
1
1
I: bi•fury [1]
1
0
1
1
J: red fury [1]
0
0
1
1
1
K: twin chip fury [1]
1
1
1
1
L: DualMiner [1]
1
1
1
1
M: Avalon Nano [1]
1
1
1
1
N: AntMiner U2 [2]
2
2
2
2
O: blank [1] not-a-stickminer [2] X-A4U [5]
0
1
1
1
0
P: iMiner [1]
1
1
1
1
Q: LKETC/Dragon 'U Disk' etc. [2]
2
2
2
2
R: Fury Thumb [2] Drillbit [1]
1
1
1
1
S: YellowJacket [3] NanoFury [1]
1
3
3
3
Sum score:
23
1
28
29
26
* helipotte opted to edit his post several times – in case of a tie, I did have edit logs to check who guessed what first.

In the end, Dunkelheit667's one miss - the bi•fury - did him in :)  Though he could also have won if he had positively stated that 'O' was not a stick miner at all.  Props to helipotte for guessing 12/19 correctly first, though that did open him up to having his guesses improved upon - something that BitBlitz may have attempted by switching things up from Injust's post.

Winner: Injust
Congratulations to Injust for winning BTC0.1 - their winnings will be paid out to the address of their choice.

Thank you, this was tons of fun :)
The BTC0.1 can be paid to the address in my forum profile, 1NJUSTv7ikwJ33J6D8HLfAv1jz325BfnF9. Thanks again!


Title: Re: Block Erupter USB - StickMiners Horizons - 0.1BTC prize
Post by: Dunkelheit667 on May 04, 2015, 08:41:10 PM
In the end, Dunkelheit667's one miss - the bi•fury - did him in :)
I see, screwed this one up. Thought the five passives on the left were legs on an IC and missed it was actually the ASIC. :-[

Congrats Injust, master of the bi•fury! :)


Title: Re: Block Erupter USB - StickMiners Horizons - 0.1BTC prize
Post by: Injust on May 05, 2015, 03:59:05 AM
Dangit, I keep missing these. That's what I get for not working on a Sunday I guess.
That's okay - I'm thinking I'll do another one of these at some point; presumably before next year, and shift the hours about a bit to ones more amiable the east coast :)

The solutions post is now up: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1043833.msg11248349#msg11248349

Score table:
item [points]helipotte*GlutiusDunkelheit667InjustBitblitz
A: hex•fury [2]
2
0
2
2
2
B: AvThumb [2] / Drillbit [1]
2
2
2
2
C: Block EruptervUSB [1]
1
1
1
1
D: HitchHiker [3] / NanoFury [1]
1
3
3
1
E: NanoFury 2 [1]
1
1
1
1
F: NanoFury 6 [2]
2
2
2
2
G: AntMiner U1 [2]
2
2
2
2
H: Twin Fury [1]
1
0
1
1
1
I: bi•fury [1]
1
0
1
1
J: red fury [1]
0
0
1
1
1
K: twin chip fury [1]
1
1
1
1
L: DualMiner [1]
1
1
1
1
M: Avalon Nano [1]
1
1
1
1
N: AntMiner U2 [2]
2
2
2
2
O: blank [1] not-a-stickminer [2] X-A4U [5]
0
1
1
1
0
P: iMiner [1]
1
1
1
1
Q: LKETC/Dragon 'U Disk' etc. [2]
2
2
2
2
R: Fury Thumb [2] Drillbit [1]
1
1
1
1
S: YellowJacket [3] NanoFury [1]
1
3
3
3
Sum score:
23
1
28
29
26
* helipotte opted to edit his post several times – in case of a tie, I did have edit logs to check who guessed what first.

In the end, Dunkelheit667's one miss - the bi•fury - did him in :)  Though he could also have won if he had positively stated that 'O' was not a stick miner at all.  Props to helipotte for guessing 12/19 correctly first, though that did open him up to having his guesses improved upon - something that BitBlitz may have attempted by switching things up from Injust's post.

Winner: Injust
Congratulations to Injust for winning BTC0.1 - their winnings will be paid out to the address of their choice.

Thank you, this was tons of fun :)
The BTC0.1 can be paid to the address in my forum profile, 1NJUSTv7ikwJ33J6D8HLfAv1jz325BfnF9. Thanks again!

-----BEGIN BITCOIN SIGNED MESSAGE-----
I confirm that I, Injust of Bitcoin Forum, have received 0.1 BTC from TheRealSteve of Bitcoin Forum, in TXID 9b8d270b3f939fc3730640cebce6c9b20bf335726a75352a3d09555f1e4e6d1b, as payment for the StickMiners Horizons contest.
-----BEGIN SIGNATURE-----
1NJUSTv7ikwJ33J6D8HLfAv1jz325BfnF9
G0IzcmG9ff7YqSl+WlnHzEqZxgUsqnRwQMZO9F4VQIYYiUtBlaTKgnTeMiMDXJ0eHtpHKDPngztDoFphFnFz9oI=
-----END BITCOIN SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Title: Re: Block Erupter USB - StickMiners Horizons - 0.1BTC prize
Post by: TheRealSteve on May 08, 2015, 05:34:30 PM
Just a minor heads-up: in about an hour and a half (noon PST), the last in this series of contests will go live: Block Erupter USB - StickMiners Googly Eyes - 0.1BTC prize (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1053725)