Bitcoin Forum

I saw this on Drudge, so it's probably not news to most of you. I had no idea the government there was so bad.

Argentine tax agents to track all credit card buys

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/L/LT_ARGENTINA_CREDIT_CARDS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-08-31-11-32-04

BUENOS AIRES, Argentina (AP) -- Argentina just made it more expensive for its people to use credit cards outside the country, and more dangerous for cardholders who aren't paying all the taxes they should.

One measure published in Friday's official bulletin adds a 15 percent tax every time people make a purchase outside the country using a card issued by an Argentine bank. Another requires the banks to report every credit card purchase, home or abroad, to the tax agency.

The moves target Argentines who have discovered that by using credit cards outside the country, they can get around increasingly tight currency controls and shelter their money from soaring inflation. Purchases outside Argentina using peso-denominated cards soared 48 percent in June compared to the year before, obligating the central bank to send $289 million out of the country in just one month. Overall capital flight soared to $23 billion in 2011.

AFIP chief Ricardo Etchegaray, the government's top tax collector, presented the moves as populist measures that would only affect the wealthiest Argentines, and mainly when they travel outside the country - a reduced group of 168,000 taxpayers who charged $1.5 billion in the last 18 months.

But a closer look shows the measures go much farther, giving the government powerful new tools to combat widespread tax evasion.

Tax and customs agents now will be able to compare better what Argentines declare to the customs and tax agencies with what their credit card bills say. Before, the reporting requirements applied only to expensive charges of more than 3,000 pesos (about $645). Now, every single purchase by every co-signer must be reported. And if the totals show people are living large while claiming to be paupers, they could get into big trouble.

"From October onward, (card-issuers) must report in detail all purchases made by cardholders and their co-signers, starting in September, both within and outside the country," said Etchegaray. "With this move, AFIP seeks to assure that taxes are paid by those contributors who are able to pay more."

Argentines don't have to declare their income unless they are salaried and make more than $20,000 a year or are self-employed and make more than $30,000, so many register with the tax authorities as if they make less than the limit, dealing in cash and trying to keep their income and purchases off the books.

But Argentina also taxes accumulated wealth, giving the government license to scrutinize people's private property to an extent that foreigners are ill-accustomed to. People whose incomes don't match their lifestyles can find themselves closed out of the financial system until they come clean.

Since November 2011, Argentina's government has sought to stem capital flight by closing down nearly every avenue people have to legally trade their inflationary pesos for U.S. dollars. The black-market peso price has spiked as a result, trading now at 6.37 pesos to the dollar, compared to the official rate of 4.65. That 37 percent gap represents what people with undeclared pesos have to lose in order to convert their cash to dollars inside Argentina.

Credit cards, meanwhile, are paid at the official rate, and many cardholders have figured out ways to use them to avoid this loss. The 15 percent tax raises the effective cost of purchases to 5.35, reducing the gap by nearly half.

In neighboring Uruguay, long a refuge for Argentines seeking to shelter their money as well as a popular tourist destination, leftist President Jose Mujica called the measures "crudely protectionist" in an interview Friday with M24 Radio in Montevideo.

He said his country should avoid anti-Argentine sentiment, but should take steps to mitigate the impact "because we all know the importance of tourism, we also know the importance of real estate investment."

Cardholders will pay the new tax as part of each month's credit card bills, with the government promising to reimburse the totals each May to taxpayers whose sworn declarations show they paid more than they owed in taxes the previous year.

But inflation will have robbed much of the reimbursement's real value by then, and for people who don't make enough income to need monthly withholdings through the year, it directly hits their pocketbooks.

Some enterprising soul(s?) have set up a way for Argentinians to buy and sell BTC via GLBSE:

https://glbse.com/asset/view/ARS
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99710.0

Lol, no the fund provided is a joke. It enables anyone (Argentinians included) to BUY Pesos and to bet on a Peso DEFLATION against the GLBSE fund's price. In no way can you buy bitcoin with it. In order to buy shares of named fund you have to PAY in BTC.

Argentinians have gone through a lot, economically speaking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_economic_crisis_(1999%E2%80%932002)

The IMF was a part of their economic past. The current leader is also on the skids
with Britain over those Falkland islands again. If you remember the last fight,
Britain came in and kicked their butts.

Spekulatius, the English description on GLBSE is, I think, out of date or not explained fully.  If you read the thread (in Spanish, unfortunately), the first post explains how to redeem BTC and vice versa through the security.  Basically you deposit pesos in a bank account maintained by the issuer, who will then give you the equivalent ARS shares on GLBSE.  You can then sell those shares for BTC (and withdraw the BTC, if you wish).

The problem, if one exists, will be with liquidity.  The BTC on offer will have to come either from miners in Argentina, foreign remittances, or tourists and visitors wanting to exchange BTC for pesos.  Not sure how much of that will exist, especially after ASICs enter the picture and render any GPUs in Argentina obsolete.  The current bid/ask spread is not too bad at around 6%, but the depth is lacking, only about 20BTC on offer currently.  So basically the infrastructure to buy/sell BTC is there, but they need more BTC flowing into the country to create a liquid market.  Anyone vacationing there and needing to exchange their currency for pesos, should consider encouraging this effort by injecting BTC instead of Euros or Dollars.

The whole reason they invaded the Falklands the first time was to distract the population from the economy.  They need that distraction again.

I know argies that are buying ASICs. It makes sense for them, at least in many big cities where the electricity is heavily subsidised.

That's backwards. ASICs are an advantage when electricity is costly not when subsidized. Presuming the subsidy makes the electricity cheap that would be an ideal place to still use GPUs. In fact they could do well buying up the cheap discards of the Europeans (and Californians) who would need to upgrade to ASICs just to be profitable.

The problem in most subsidized locations is that there is often a kWh limit which aims to make the heavy users pay a more regular rate. Don't know specifics of Argentina.

They've recently nationalized the oil companies, it's sad to see them go down this route.

Not in a scenario in which the vast majority of miners are using ASICs. As I understand, this will be the case in the not too distant future.

If you are from Argentina and want to fight back, setting up a cash exchange might be a good way. Doesn't seem like there is too much activity, at least at localbitcoins: https://localbitcoins.com/country/AR

These are brutal, important lessons in why a cashless society should not strip everyone of their transactional and financial privacy. For those people in Argentina that want to bypass currency controls and also shelter their money from government-induced inflation, this Buenos Aires exchange community (http://Buenos Aires exchange community) claims to buy and sell bitcoin for Argentine pesos. http://wiki.eudemocracia.org/en/bitcoin

And, the mercaBit.eu exchange sells bitcoin for Ukash vouchers which are available in Argentina.

From:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2012/09/04/argentina-begins-tracking-all-credit-cards/

Also see:
Ukash now available throughout whole of Argentina!
http://www.ukash.com/media/44801581/argentina_press_release.pdf

Very interesting and quite shocking article, dated today:

Crisis Replay... Soon Argentina Will Be on Sale Again
http://www.dailywealth.com/2202/Crisis-Replay-Soon-Argentina-Will-Be-on-Sale-Again (http://www.dailywealth.com/2202/Crisis-Replay-Soon-Argentina-Will-Be-on-Sale-Again)

Another shocker. I expect that much of this is an image of the next future of many formerly western "advanced economies":

 A Street Level View Of Argentina's Economy, The Peso And ARGT
http://seekingalpha.com/article/873431-a-street-level-view-of-argentina-s-economy-the-peso-and-argt (http://seekingalpha.com/article/873431-a-street-level-view-of-argentina-s-economy-the-peso-and-argt)

http://www.latercera.com/noticia/negocios/2012/09/655-485015-9-amazon-ebay-y-payoneer-suspenden-operaciones-en-argentina-por-trabas-cambiarias.shtml
 ;D

This is the right time to move!

Someone should make a service like this:
http://www.osalt.com
But instead open source alternatives, it will have Bitcoin alternatives, example:
eBay
- bitmit
paypal
- Bitpay
- mtgox

Users should be able to add common used services, and then possible alternatives.
It must be possible also to vote alternatives.

I see a problem here. ( is it a real problem? )

Argentina users wont be able to mine because every time they'll get in contact with the rest of the world they will find the high mtgox price.
Do they need another crypto-currency just for them?

I'm not sure if this can be a real problem.
Example: bitmit.net
Can they simple sell items with argentina prices (lowest) only to other argentina users?
Is it simple as it seems?

Even on https://localbitcoins.com/ they can set a lowest prices available only to them self.

If they follow these rules, then they will be able to mine even bitcoin without any problem, they don't need another cryptocurrency only for them.

If they want to sell something worldwide then they will actually get more of the value of the item (if it is desirable) from a worldwide audience then from a local one if represented in BTC.  Mining will be in their advantage as well.  The only thing that would not be in their advantage is converting their nearly worthless local currency into BTC, they will need a ton of it to do that. 

I don't think so.
They are out of the rest of economic world now.
They can't move money out/in of their country, they can't use world commond used services.
So they can chose their bitcoin value :)

It will works well while they'll trade internaly.

It doesn't work that way. Gold, for example, is more expensive (not cheaper) in Argentina due to restrictions.

I see huge opportunities for BTC biz in Argentina: they should just sell their goods/services for BTC as they are already doing for USD. And they have lots of marketable things, starting with prime land and real estate. I seem to remember that they are even a major producer of silver.

Argentina's New Currency Rules Have Backfired Horribly
http://www.businessinsider.com/argentinas-currency-rules-backfire-2012-9 (http://www.businessinsider.com/argentinas-currency-rules-backfire-2012-9)

The fun may start when Argentinians will notice that BTC are better than USD since they cannot be seized at the border nor wherever else, and they tend to increase in purchasing power.

edit: BTW, in the nearby Chile there is Simon Black of Sovereignman.com who is hiring and looking for more business ideas. See: http://www.sovereignman.com/expat/about-those-jobs-8912/ (http://www.sovereignman.com/expat/about-those-jobs-8912/)

Things are getting interesting in Argentina...

Bitcoin, Dollars, and a 25% Premium
http://thebluemarket.wordpress.com/2012/10/18/bitcoin-dollars-and-pot-banging-protests-in-argentina/

Great articles.
Thank you both.

Great articles and go for the BTC Argentina!! be the first country to adopt it and watch all the others follow!!

Hope the Argentinians like not having medicines and certain foods. There are times in Caracas where you can't buy what you want cause it isn't there.

Is 289 M$ in a month supposed to be a big sum?
Sounds pretty casual for a central bank.

But who wants to buy pesos?
If everyone is only wanting to sell, then it can't work.
On the other hand, they can sell physical good for Bitcoins.

That's just what is was wondering about.
It would make more sense to buy commodities and whatnot.

Tourists can exchange their foreign currency, including BTC, for pesos on the blue market (black market/real market).

Thats right. In fact, a tourist visiting Argentina would have 25% more spending money, if they bring their spending money in the form of bitcoins, and not electronic cards.

I will try to post this information on travel forums, which should promote bitcoin adoption.

Black market currency exchanger. If you can turn around your holdings fast enough, even Rials become an option. The ARS' inflation rate is not too bad if you operate on a daily basis though.

They've recently re-socialised their wealth, it's great to see them going up this route :).

Joe

Oh please feckin' do, will ya!?

 Let us know the results or let us know where you started a discussion so we can join in!

Joe

That is why you don't know Brazil... There is nothing worse than this %$#%$#%#$...