Bitcoin Forum

ShapeShift, a popular cryptocurrency exchange based in Switzerland, terminated its services in New York today (http://tinyurl.com/pdglg8r),
due to the state’s BitLicense regulations for digital currencies - Erik Voorhees, Shapeshift Founder and CEO says.

This makes no sense - the law is not supporting business which would pay taxes, but to the contrary makes it leave the country - isn't it stupid?

I thought shapeshift requires no account.  so is it going to do an ip geo lookup and tell New Yorkers to scram?  and then, couldn't they just access it anyway via tor?

Yes, it checks the IP range and redirects to this site - http://pleaseprotectconsumers.org

It is great they are taking a principled stand and warning consumers and refusing to follow the guidelines. New Yorkers can use a VPN to use shapeshift, while having the privacy protected.

New York deserves the hate and distain that is soon to be directed towards it.  This idea that the police can look around in your underwear drawer - before you do something wrong is absurd.  Ben Lawski thinks he is protecting customers.  In fact, he is merely annoying entrepreneurs who understand there is no way a start up should be spending large portions of the budget preparing stupid paper for government regulators to put their stamp on.  Fortunately, those entrepreneurs don't want to sit around and talk about it with them either - they rather just pack it up and leave.  

California is next.  $5000 to 'register' as a crypto company doing business.  What kind of a 'register' (database) needs $5000 for an entry?  This is just another stupid tax.  So many really great start ups can move their project ahead pretty far on those $5000.  To a government official, $5000 is nothing.  To a bootstrap entrepreneur it is a load of money.  

I am in discussions with my partners now.  We decided we will not organize in California.  Its not precisely the $5000 - it is whatever comes next that we don't know about.  

The FinCen lady Calvary said it best: the laws against fraud and money laundering are pretty effective already.  We don't need new laws.  We can just use the old laws to stop bad actors.  But some fools see a new 'denomination' and they jump at the chance to levy a new tax scheme.  

Leave it to the government to smother a tiny spark of innovation with more tax.  Lawski = idiot.  I am glad he got fired.  Now NY ought to throw his stupid crypto plan in the shitcan too - before ten more companies like ShapeShift cut NY out of the picture entirely.  

Cheers to Shapeshift!  This is what we need from our companies to fight stupid regulations.

And Mike, the 5000$ in California is much worse than just a tax, it is specifically designed to have a chilling effect on bitcoins.  But it makes no sense because businesses will just set up shop elsewhere.  I think the biggest impact is on small startups that want to use bitcoins.  Not all businesses consider 5k a small fee.  Also if I read the law correctly this would even stop people from running a small website to sell things, or sell on ebay or amazon for coins.  This rule is not just a tax, it is yet another law bought by special interests.  And you are right, the future of crypto regulation is very murky.  Best of luck with your business Mike!

It would be a coup of epic proportions if Switzerland would say: 'to any formerly California company: if you move to Switzerland we will provide you 12 months free post box office, business shell entity, and $5000'.  They would be able to 'buy' so many great cryptocompanies with this trick.  They would benefit tremendously over the coming 20 years with the goodwill from having all these new clean white collar businesses.  AND it totally fits with their mentality as the Swiss have long been in favor of 'hands off' banking laws.  Switzerland is poised to totally blow California out of the water.  

Exactly.  NY is a filthpit.  Voorhees didn't leave because of bitlicense, he left because Mario and his friends have been running that extortion racket known as Wall Street and the stock exchange for years.  Napster replaced the entire music industry, now bitcoin is going to replace NewYork.  ...and New York thinks they are going to 'regulate' that?  Hahahahah!

New York wants to 'regulate' Bitcoin : Bitcoin wants to eliminate NY.  Who do you think will win?

You have to weigh up your options... If they are hostile against your business and implement shitty regulations to stop innovation... then just pull the roots and move to a Bitcoin friendly environment.

While you are there, you are just feeding them your taxes and in return they are killing your innovation.

Support a Bitcoin friendly country or state.... You will be much better off, in the long term. Those people will go down with their regulations in future.  ;D

it does not matter if newyork will win, it's not like newyork is the center of the world, bitcoin can find its place in many other countries, this is the beauty of having many countries and each of it with its own regulation

I like, how when you scroll down on the website http://pleaseprotectconsumers.org/ you see the 2 jurisdictions, where they blocked them self: North Korea and New York.

I agree with this totally. Do not feed the people hostile to you.

In many ways, New York IS the financial center of the world. Because of the globalization of the economy, it is less so than in the past, but it is still the center. Perhaps as time passes, that center will shift. But for now, it is still New York.

Really?  Go ask the music industry.  Go ask any ex newspaper journalist.  Go ask a postal employee.  Go ask Kodak film company.  These guys all thought they were 'still on top' - long after they had been fully replaced.

New York was the clear boss 50 years ago.  That shit is so over.

i applaud them .. the bitlicense is a friggin joke!

With P2P, with bitcoin, finance can be done any where, not necessary centralized in New York. I would be interested in seeing what NY will be in 30 year's time.

you won't have to wait that long.  It'll all be pretty much done in about 3 years.
Those NY Guidos are totally gone.  Banks are next.  You can thank Patrick Byrne in part for taking a nice early lead - despite the fact that he is a total weirdo.

Meh, the article says shapeshift doesnt want to collect private information because the want to protect their customers but then they store addresses, IPs etc. and say they are going to provide this information to authorities is asked for them....
Come on shapeshift, either commit to protecting user information by not even logging IPs and addresses if not needed or don't, but don't say you wan to protect user information and then do this kind of thing...

why is new york the first state to create this type license?, it feels more like a roadblock then a gain to the bitcoin business.

because the mining activity started in the USA first, and they probably see newyork as a central hub for bitcoin regulation

They want to control bitcoin, they want to control business, they don't believe people can be on their own capable of choosing what is good for them - hence the regulations.
New York laws are stupid they want to regulate EVERYTHING ,to the point you can't buy Coca-Cola in larger bottles because it is not healthy - you can't do that to people. Let them decide!

This is how Democrats operate.  The government will do it for you.  The government shall decide how much Coke you are permitted.  Republicans hate more government.  I cannot for the life of me understand people who vote for Democrats.  Do you like Obama telling you how much Coke to drink and how many times per week you should give your wife anal? 

Because apparently some Republicans think the government shall decide how much coke and weed you are permitted.  And who you're allowed to marry.  And whether your wife can get an abortion.  I guess not all Republicans hate more government.

I heard California had strict rules too, like you get prosecuted for not mowing the grass in front of your house because it makes it look untidy. I bet they will make their own version of the bit license soon. There will soon be state after state creating their own version of the bit license. This time next year there might be less states without one than with one.

At least people are starting to realize now that these ill imposed regulations are going to far. People will decide with their money, they move to where they want to pay their taxes.
Scenario where we are seeing exodus of business to less tax heavy states is reality and when authorities realize that their laws inhibited progress it will be already too late.

You mean this?  http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201520160AB1326

This is fucking brilliant. Love it.

Erik Voorhees. Respect.

-CLAM Development Team.

NY lost on this one, they could have earned nice sum of money with taxes, but now they have nothing.
Once they start to figure out what they are doing, it's going to be too late, and the businesses will already be somewhere else.
Really smart ..  ::)

cheers

Under California's proposed rules, you can buy and sell goods and services for bitcoin, you just cannot sell or purchase bitcoin for any amount unless you pay the non-refundable $5K license fee, $75 per hour no cap for review of your license eligibility, and hope you get approved.  In california it's literally going  to be TGFO (translation: take your shirt off please) if you want bitcoins.  There is no criteria mentioned that either qualifies you or disqualifies you except that if you don't pay you don't qualify. In comparison, Islam Karimov of Uzbekistan has a lower limit of $50,000 before commercial deals must be approved. Islam Karimov boils dissidents alive. All deals in California must be preapproved if the legislation gets voted in.

With that sweet talking conman Erik Voorhees involved its hard to believe he would want to be in a state where they would actually keep tabs on what he's doing. That makes me believe his "pulling out" is a ruse to drum up business for a long con. It's nice to know that his last con paid him enough to start a new business.

What con? 

Here's one: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=82866.msg10221993#msg10221993

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=829287.msg9267649#msg9267649

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=584983.msg6410034#msg6410034

Erik Voorhees breaks the law without worrying about the consequences. Even if you assume he always meant well he makes bad business decisions that can and have cost his customers lots of money. I would never trust anything that has his name associated with it.

Erik V. doesn't operate from the USA, so the SEC doesn't have jurisdiction over his companies.  

He moved to Panama to avoid the over regulation of the USA.  I would think someone who "questions authority" would support those kinds of actions.

How has he cost his customers lots of money?

Read the threads again and pay attention to FeedZeBirds. He was running an illegal business soliciting customers from the U.S. and lived in the U.S. at the time. Business men that break the law are not only risking their own freedom but the money that their customers trusted them to keep safe. He can be Johnny Rebel Mr. Trendy/Edgy/Cool all he wants to be and skirt the law. Just don't involve the money of innocent unknowing people. He also worked for BitInstant and I do feel sorry that Charlie went to jail, but again, businessmen that break the law are a risk to hop into bed with. Bitcoin is a risky enough investment anyway, why add to the risk by investing in risky people.

They made the right decision. Bitcoin should be free from government oversight because that's why it was made in the first place. To take our freedom back.

Don't invest in him, that's your choice.  I personally respect E.V. for his entrepreneurship, his courage, and his principles.  I also find it's odd to "question authority" but you want someone else to follow the authorities' regulations when you have a bias against them.

I do a lot of things that cross the line but I don't ask unknowing innocents to pay for it. Entrepreneurship is wonderful if you are truly an entrepreneur and not taking money from people (like FeedZeBirds) and making them lose. It takes no courage to scam, commit crimes and bitch about how you hate the establishment. He's not Malcolm X or Martin Luther King, he profits from everything he does running all over the world looking for his next targets. Everyone has made that mistake about my nick. The authorities I question are the respected leaders of this community who I have seen steal (including mods and Bitcoin Foundation Founding Fathers), lie, cheat, scam and go to jail for their actions. If one person sees what I've said about Voorhees (whether they respond here or not), looks at the history and keeps themselves out of trouble then I've saved one person from being used by a guy that knowingly broke the law and ran to Panama to escape. 

my understanding is that the platform failed and the business went bankrupt.  happens all the time in the good ol US of A. 

wall street cannot leave newyork. so when they get in on bitcoin, then the licence fee's will make many NY state representatives very rich.. and they wont care about the little guy that has to move out of state..

remember, the rich only think about the rich

more bitcoin business will leave if the BitLicense no change

This might sound stupid, but I am going to ask it anyway.

Can you still run a company in NY and not pay the BitLicence fee, if you exclude USA from your service? The regulations are there to protect the citizens of that state, and if you exclude them from your service, it should not be applicable to you.... right?

Some of the gambling sites are doing it now, but they are operating from other countries.

The main goal of this license and regulations was not to protect local consumers... just a way for them to profit from it, so I guess they will not agree with me on this.  ???

I also want to know.

just my (non professional) opinion, but I seriously doubt it.  You'd be operating
in the state of NY and under their thumb jurisdiction.