Bitcoin Forum

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Yes, I know that everyone has been screaming about Greece since 2010 without anything happening.  But, *maybe* we may be nearing a denouement:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-15/eurozone-impose-capital-controls-greece-if-no-deal-weekend-german-press

Then again, maybe not!

But, the ATMs there in Greece have been busy lately.  Were I Greek, I would be taking money out of the bank as quickly as possible.  And getting some of it out of Greece, and into things like BTC and gold.  Bitcoin is very mobile, and done right, hard to track.

The Greek Government's gamble with the future of its country / Europe doesn't seem to be working.
The IMF and Germany have hardened their stand. A Grexit doesn't seem so unlikely now.

what future you are talking about, rising debt service until eternity?

The only real solution is that Greece will leave Eurozone and go back to their own currency. It probably won't happen though because politicians are pussies and would rather keep appearances.
If we accept that Greece is bankrupt and is beyond repair this whole mess would end, instead we have this show of never ending dialog about another batch of credits, social funds and help.

It all depends on how much leverage hedge funds and others may have wrapped up in those 'wrong side of the trade' deals. I haven't heard anyone talk about or give a number about how levered anyone is to any trades around Greece.

another one is to take a loan from the central bank of europe, why they can't just ask for that, isn't this the way they operate when they have a debt? just print more money right?

there should not be any problem, past debts were resolved in this way, they know that there is no other solution

Indeed ridiculous, ECB is printing 60 billion Euro per month right now, and comparing to that, those 1.6 billion debt of Greece is nothing

Although Euro can be created out of thin air, ECB is afraid of this: If Greece keeps borrowing money and never return them, other countries will follow suit, then after a while no one will be working and every one is borrowing Euro to spend, thus Euro's value will drop dramatically and their power of money printing will become as good as Zimbabwe government

In fact the trend of confidence collapse of fiat money's value is slowly growing when people's knowledge about money is growing. Kicking Greece out of EMU can delay the inevitable for a few years, so that banks have more time to purchase enough assets (maybe bitcoin) using Euro out of thin air

Unlike China, Greece have no large bitcoin exchanges, so the capital outflow of Greek people using bitcoin is relatively difficult

it's not all about money but punishment. greece has to suffer because left wing is getting stronger in south europe.
a second greece in spain (podemos) would be a nightmare for brussels and elections are end this year.

SYRIZA came in to power in Greece, because it was the mainstream parties who destroyed the Greek economy. Now they are left with $350 billion in net debt, and a ruined economy. And regarding Spain, Podemos is not leading the polls right now. Currently, they are at 3rd or 4th position. However, there is a small chance that they will be able to form a coalition government with one of the mainstream parties.

if you take a closer look to this graph you can see how fragil the situation in spain is.
podemos jumped from off in no-time to pp level. i wouldn't call this a small chance.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/ElectionMonthlyAverageGraphSpain2015.png (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/ElectionMonthlyAverageGraphSpain2015.png)

and greece is much higher in debt if you add target2, not talking about the 4T in derivates.

It could get very interesting in Spain, Portugal and Italy if Greece leaves.  Would you want to hold bonds in those countries?
Greece has been a lost cause for a long time, Germany can't control the situation, because if they try, Greece will leave!

Interesting times ahead, and I say that as a resident of Germany!

I dont see why they wont let greece fail completely.

It`ll help the euro saving their money lending and what not..

If we go back further in time, many people in Northern Europe were against Greece joining the Eurozone. They only got admitted with lies: the data Greece provided back then was wrong.

It is too late now.They have to help the ailing Greece no matter of the cost and defend the unity of European area and the value of Euro.

it should be better for the euro, to kick them then, right? why they are still helping those liar if they did not deserve to be part of the euro zone in the first place, Greece on the other hand joined because they were in a their own crisis even before the joining, like you said, and for them joining the euro would have been only a great benefit, but now that euro is falling too, they are essentially digging their grave

This is not the first time. Talks about imposing capital control has been in the pipeline for so long but it has yet to be fully implemented. I foresee when this is carried out, it doesn't really instill confidence in the euro as a currency, but it will just make things becoming even worse. Maybe you are right, people should look into alternatives and other channels to secure their wealth.

If the troika and the Europan Union really want to help Greece, then there are several ways to do that. For example, they could lower the interest rates, or extend the payment deadlines. I am not even asking them to write-off a part of the Greek debt. Just give them a little bit of breathing space, by extending the timeline.

The thing is there is not enough time in the universe for the payment deadline to be stretched enough for it to allow Greece (or any of the countries that will be in the same situation relatively soon) to pay for the debt. The debt is non-payable. We are watching a circus but instead of clowns we have pretentious bankers with nice suits. They are just killing time for the inevitable: a debt relief.

That is a foregone conclusion. In the end, at least some of the debt has to be written off. Without that, how do you expect the Greeks to pay back this huge amount? Their total population is just 11 million (and rapidly declining). The troika is only damaging its own chances of getting the money back, by saying that it will not allow any change in the clauses.

The Euro isn't exactly failing. What's failing are the leaders who are unable to make countries respect the Maastricht treaty with a country's debt limited at 60% of GNP and the current deficit at 3%. If only a few go by the rules, and nobody slaps on the wrists of those who don't, yes, we're headed towards failure, bit the Euro was a fantastic idea. I remember how unconvenient it was having to change banknotes each time I crossed a border. Thanks to the Euro, I'm doing much less often.

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I agree with above reply re Goldman Sachs also being at fault here.  But there are MANY at fault in this mess: Germany, Europe (for letting Greece in), and Greece itself (all of their governments have behaved shamelessly).

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There is talk within Greece itself as to who would impose capital controls.  So much talk re capital controls, that IMO (not an expert, not Greek) some kind of controls are coming.

Individuals there should consider taking money out of the banks now.  And buying some BTC and Au now.  There may not be much time.




EDIT:  We here in the USA (and W Europe) could look at Greece as a test-run for responses to future crises.  Just as Cyprus is a model now for authorities to place capital controls on the population...

If you would like to see a good analysis of how the austerity measures, as imposed by merkel and friends (a troika of unelected officials), has worsened the debt crisis in Greece and Portugal should watch this German documentary. What people keep forgetting is that Greece is in a DEPRESSION, despite having undergone the greatest fiscal adjustment in memory during the past 5 years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwuD0MqU3qk

(enable subtitles)

Not many people currently keep their money in Greek savings accounts anyway, especially after the Cyprus haircut ruined the account-holders there. I fear that the "haircut" will not be just limited to the savings accounts this time. There is a chance that the government will take away the bullion, treasury bonds, and other assets such as real estate.

a gold/silver backed neodrachma, would be a perfect timing now.

If Greece has a small budget surplus (as one of the conditions was), they can chip away at the principal.
But the government doesn't even want to agree to this.