Bitcoin Forum

I'm Don Quixote and KYC is my windmill.

I've been refusing to give Paypal my passport / DL / Electric Bill for about 4 years now... they ask ever few months.  I had to terminate my account with RippleTrade and BitInstant because of KYC requirements, now I fear even more bitcoin companies will jump on the KYC wagon.

I don't care if these companies know who I am, or know where I live, its a matter of data security.  If a JPG of a passport can serve as irrefutable proof that the holder is indeed me... why would I want to release that proof the a third party.  Allowing an exchange to hold my private keys is a controllable exposure.  My exposure is limited to the amount of BTC I choose to place on that key.  Identity theft is a different story.  Once someone (having stole my JPG from the exchange) can provide indisputable proof that they are me, my risk is unbounded.  If the US Government, with access to the most advanced cryptography and billions of dollars in computing power cannot keep it's own data secure (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Personnel_Management_data_breach), I don't trust an exchange with a few hundred employees and a few hundred thousand in compute to do it.

As a victim of identity theft I had to fight (am still fighting) over $13,000 that I was held liable for, but all this was over a very limit exposure.  One (guessable) account number was all that was needed to hang me out for $13,000.  I won my dispute purely on the basis that my account number could have shown up on that form by accident or by the luck of the attacker since no secondary ID was provided.  If they had my passport and drivers license, I would likely be up the creek right now.

I was recently inspired to revisit this topic after hearing Andreas A. publicly rail against KYC (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0mykANOMGQ#t=12m29s).

Please let me know your views... Will you let your exchange accounts go dark because of KYC?

Would you be willing to share you story of identify theft? Maybe we can learn from it, avoid having it happen to us? Was it conducted by a business or because a business lost your personal data or some other reason all together?

Sorry for your luck! Good luck with your settlement!

Not much to tell.  I run a lot of side tech jobs so as such, I have a small company.  To get a company you fill out some paperwork and get an EIN / TIN number.  These numbers aren't really "confidential" since it is on a lot of public facing documents.  Well eventually, someone in the US without a work permit wanted to work.  Turns out it's easier for someone without a SSN to just pluck an EIN out of the air and just claim they are business owner.

Well this is exactly what happened to me.  Someone used my companies EIN to pose as the business owner of that EIN and settle a contract with a farm thousands of miles away.  The fact that my EIN was filed in a different state didn't matter.  The fact that my company was filed as a Tech company not a transport company didn't matter.  The fact that corporate law in the US is supposed to shield business owners from being held responsible for corporate debt didn't matter.

The IRS address a letter to me, with my SSN (not my EIN) claiming that I owed all the back taxes for the Transport contract, thousands of miles away.  Many phone calls, faxes, emails, meetings, more meetings, more phone calls later, the IRS finally said "opps".  I'm still trying to prosecute the person who is using my EIN, but apparently they don't do that anymore.  So I'm probably going to have to do this year for year until I can finally get someone to arrest the guy.

So yeah... if you live in the US, vote for whoever is most likely to dismantle the IRS.  They are a nightmare and have no business in a free society.

I am with you on this one and I voted against the KYC. I don't give my real info to anyone and I am only using exchanges and sticking to limits on these exchanges in order not to send my IDs and utility bills.
Government wants to control and look at everyone but I don't want to be controlled and looked at by governments.
Thats probably why I am not using location services on my smart phones. :)

Why are you so hostile to the man that used your EIN? He is opposing taxes, just like you. He has the same enemy - IRS, just like you. You were waging the same battle. You saved him from taxes, you have shielded him by your body and received the bullet that was meant to kill him. Yes, you are wounded because of it, but he is alive because of it. Why should you hate him? Your EIN have saved him, next time his EIN may save you. He is not your enemy, he is your brother-in-arms. IRS is your and his enemy, so why do you want to give away your comrade to your mutual enemy? Won't you feel yourself like a traitor after it?

I avoid any site which asks for proof of address or identity. I understand they have policies to follow, I cannot trust any of them to protect my documents. For all I know, my documents could be printed out and placed in an file cabinet any employee can access, or dumped on a shared drive on their server unprotected.

I am however willing to drive to their office, show them the documents and identifications in person and let them verify without making a copy. That is going to be impossible for a bitcoin exchange half way across the world.  :-\


The EIN thief is avoiding taxes now. The EIN could also be used to file false tax refund, open false business bank accounts and take out loans. The guy could be doing that now and OP hasn't found out yet. Why wouldn't OP want the guy to be caught?


Care to explain how the thief's non-existent EIN can save OP?

Can anyone give me a list of exchanges which do not have AML/KYC.
I am using cryptsy but it also have limit without KYC.

BTC-e doesn't care about that type of thing, but if you want to get fiat on there you have to deal with third party processors who probably do. Kraken lets you trade small amounts without it. Almost all alt only exchanges don't require it apart from Poloniex as far as I know. People give Poloniex false info anyway.

I avoid giving any info related to me at all costs. I generally don't mind giving my name and/or an approximate address, but I'm not giving pictures of my documents. When I have to send scans of my ID in my country for government-controlled entities (or other entities that require my ID, such as cable providers, water and gas providers etc), I scan the documents and then I edit them with big red letters on top of my ID saying "for exclusive usage of *company name here*", otherwise I'm not sending my data anywhere.

That being said, I voted "I refuse to do business with a company requiring it.", obviously.

The KYC process of cryptsy is very strict.
And yes I want to trade in fiat(mostly USD) so is there any recommendations for that?

There is only a slight advantage of doing red color on top of your I'd.
But anyone with basic knowledge of Adobe photoshop can remove the red color and write other company's name on it.

The only thing I can be sure about when dealing with an exchange is that will not do KYC/AML is that I am sending my money to a bunch of criminals. How do you think that is going to end?
Maybe they are believers who want to do good business without the oppression of law. Or maybe they are laughing their ass off while spending the money I foolishly sent them. It's really up to them to decide what to do with the money. And when they steal it what are you going to do? Tell the cops some criminal in Ukraine stole your money instead of helping you evade the law.  

It's the USD thing that screws it up for everyone. Cryptsy had none of that before they implemented it.

Your best bet would probably be depositing crypto on BTC-e, selling it for USD and then you're rolling without having to give up ID to anyone. Withdrawing USD might probably require ID from the third party processor though. It's borderline impossible to avoid these days.

it's impossible because by the time you add a bank account, you are known, yes it isn't the same as providing national id, but your privacy is screwed anyway

you should deal with private or use a decentralized exchange, that i'm sure will coem in the future, for now there is local bitcoin...

So you are saying that I cannot do any Bitcoin arbitrage without completing the KYC?
Or is there any way around?

If USD is entering or leaving an exchange then it's KYC time wherever you go as far as I can tell. They're a lot more interested in not going to jail than your privacy.

This is the list of payment processors btc-e uses - US Bank Wire, EU Bank Wire (SEPA), Visa, Mastercard, Liqpay.com, unikarta.com, PerfectMoney.com, WebCreds.com, Ukash.com, Webmoney.ru

Maybe it's worth investigating them further but I'm pretty sure there's no way any of them would still be able to deal with USD or EUR without giving up everything to The Man.

That is correct. It won't stop someone truly dedicated in stealing my ID. But it's an extra and easy security precaution one can take. That and sending low quality scans, where only the basic info can be seen, making it difficult to steal the ID.

Also, sending ID like this was the advice of my trusted lawyer. Works for me, so better pass it on :D

I voted to avoid it. Since we are giving companies those documents online, they could easily be hacked. I prefer methods which don't require KYC such as localbitcoins. Also, those requirements can be quite irritating for someone who doesn't have the necessary documents to prove their identity and address. For younger people who don't have any proof of residency or anything in their name (such as minors) they can't get Bitcoin through normal means even if they have a bank account or a credit card.

I voted the first option.  The thing is, the cat is already out of the bag.  At least for me.  My data, all of it, has been out there for a long time.  For example when I went to CC, they used my SS number for everything, from registering for classes to paying fees in person (yeah, thats right you just gave the number to people standing around behind a counter, usually other students, with other students in line all around).

It is a sad truth that people never fix anything ahead of time, only after it is broken (see: global warming).  So, my data is already compromised for anyone who wants it, I am sure.  It wasn't until pretty recently that we collectively said "uh, oh shit maybe we better not just give all this information away".  

You might call me stupid for participating ni this stuff, but I had to choose my battles.  I was aware at the time that giving my ss number was stupid, but I didn't have the time or energy to fight the system.  

Anyway, for me it is too late, maybe for you guys it is not.

You are cutting your bread with a knife. The same knife could also be used to kill somebody. You could be doing it right now and we hasn't found out yet. Why wouldn't we want you to be arrested?

You can also ask how the non-existing bullet I've mentioned have managed to wound OP. :)

I only give it if I really need that service

if not,I try to avoid it, or taking an alternative

I refuse, but I guess it's easier for me, because KYC requirements vary a lot with the country you're doing your business in.
Life's beautiful when you live in a free country! The sad thing is that free countries are disappearing fast. I'll enjoy them till they last, with the hope that BTC will rule when the fascist countries will crash.

I started in this position as well.  My assumption was that if they require KYC, then they must be complying with some law that I could use against them if they fold.  This may hold for some companies, but it is purely case by case.  Mt.Gox implemented KYC before they folded, extreme example... I know.  It just seams the law is rather one sided (as the video clip in my OP mentions).

As I stated before... my view is heavily biased by my experience, so I was trying to get a sounding of other users.

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You could go BTC/ALT then ALT/BTC.  Move the ALT between exchanges.  Volume would likely be way to low to be useful though.  I know people that do this with LTC, but there seems to be as many losers as winners.

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Another common method (although highly questionable), is simply to redact personal data.  I know people doing this with paypal and they claim it works.  The idea is scan your license, then draw a Guy Gawks mustache on your face, and black out the DL number and the like.  Point is, sometimes the company just wants a check-box and doesn't really look at what they get.  Then again... they may have TOS that would allow this protest to trigger forfeiture of deposits.

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I always saw it as an odds game.  If 2% of companies get their KYC database hacked, then the fewer companies I share with, the lower my exposure.  Not zero, but lower.  My employer has my license, my mortgage company has my license... but hopefully, by limiting that number it's not quite as bad.

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More info on KYC in a useful AML/KYC thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=454795.0).  It also seems to list KYC heavy -vs- KYC light companies.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=454795.0

I personally don't mind KYC as long as the company offers good service and it's a reputable business. However, I wouldn't want to send my information to anyone who just whips up a default Bootstrap site with numerous spelling errors all over the pages.

That is a good point. Just because they are obeying one law does not mean they are trustworthy. I still would only deal with a compliant company. Even a well meaning exchange that is non-compliant comes with risk. When they get raided and the bitcoins are seized you can probably kiss your coins good bye.