Title: What stops people storing large objects on the blockchain?
Post by: rscholey on August 04, 2015, 04:49:02 PM
I watched a video and it mentioned "anything can be stored on the blockchain". My question is if anything can be stored there then what will stop the blockchain size getting so big that nobody could store a copy of it?
Title: Re: What stops people storing large objects on the blockchain?
Post by: hexafraction on August 04, 2015, 04:50:45 PM
Transaction fees. For each piece of data, a transaction needs to be constructed, propagated, and accepted by a miner. The larger a transaction is, the higher the fee needed for acceptance is.
Title: Re: What stops people storing large objects on the blockchain?
Post by: rscholey on August 04, 2015, 05:41:26 PM
Thanks for explaining about the transaction fees. If you don't mind can you give / estimate what a transaction fee would be for an object of any size that you think would be a good example. I would just like to get an idea of how much these fees would add up to. Thanks
Title: Re: What stops people storing large objects on the blockchain?
Post by: achow101 on August 04, 2015, 05:46:21 PM
Thanks for explaining about the transaction fees. If you don't mind can you give / estimate what a transaction fee would be for an object of any size that you think would be a good example. I would just like to get an idea of how much these fees would add up to. Thanks
The typical fee is 1000 satoshi per kilobyte. Sometimes it is 10000 satoshi per kb to guarantee a faster confirmation. Also, another thing that prevents data from being stored is the block size limit. The current limit of 1 Mb prevents too much spam from bloating the blockchain although there are concerns right now about not having enough space for large amounts of transactions.
Title: Re: What stops people storing large objects on the blockchain?
Post by: Snorek on August 04, 2015, 05:53:43 PM
I believe that formula for calculating TX fee goes (I am not 100% sure):
normal_fee := 0.0005
size := X * 148 + Y * 34 + 10 +- X
fee := normal_fee / (1 - size / 500kB)
Is this is correct or I messed something?
Title: Re: What stops people storing large objects on the blockchain?
Post by: shorena on August 05, 2015, 03:52:24 PM
I believe that formula for calculating TX fee goes (I am not 100% sure):
normal_fee := 0.0005
size := X * 148 + Y * 34 + 10 +- X
fee := normal_fee / (1 - size / 500kB)
Is this is correct or I messed something?
This is for X inputs (with compressed keys) and Y outputs on a regular transaction that is spending coins, but OP wants to know about storing arbitrary data on the blockchain. If we take cryptograffiti[1] as a reference 2,000 bytes cost 0.00144600 BTC according to their preview. A ASCII picture like this costs ~0.03[2,3]. The limit on the costs is for one the fees needed for a TX and the max blocksize, but also that you need to burn bitcoin to an output that you will not be able to spend at a later date as its representing your data. There might be someday someone with the matching private key but the chances for that are as good as impossible.
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if you like it, leave a tip: 1P675gRxNwhFXgfuDu5yXwGDgwLDbXNJqz BM-2cUDAqyqcnksx7YDtgu2y72xDxcRjPeYfo
[1] http://cryptograffiti.info/ [2] http://cryptograffiti.info/?txnr=3334 [3] https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/tx/0fc0c50e410b62ee3a316135711116db6b4e728841c976f29ab85e2a41e0dcc3
Title: Re: What stops people storing large objects on the blockchain?
Post by: Panzzer on August 05, 2015, 03:57:34 PM
I believe that formula for calculating TX fee goes (I am not 100% sure):
normal_fee := 0.0005
size := X * 148 + Y * 34 + 10 +- X
fee := normal_fee / (1 - size / 500kB)
Is this is correct or I messed something?
This is for X inputs (with compressed keys) and Y outputs on a regular transaction that is spending coins, but OP wants to know about storing arbitrary data on the blockchain. If we take cryptograffiti[1] as a reference 2,000 bytes cost 0.00144600 BTC according to their preview. A ASCII picture like this costs ~0.03[2,3]. The limit on the costs is for one the fees needed for a TX and the max blocksize, but also that you need to burn bitcoin to an output that you will not be able to spend at a later date as its representing your data. There might be someday someone with the matching private key but the chances for that are as good as impossible.
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if you like it, leave a tip: 1P675gRxNwhFXgfuDu5yXwGDgwLDbXNJqz BM-2cUDAqyqcnksx7YDtgu2y72xDxcRjPeYfo
[1] http://cryptograffiti.info/ [2] http://cryptograffiti.info/?txnr=3334 [3] https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/tx/0fc0c50e410b62ee3a316135711116db6b4e728841c976f29ab85e2a41e0dcc3 That is very expensive and lame way of storing data unless the data is very important.
Title: Re: What stops people storing large objects on the blockchain?
Post by: manselr on August 05, 2015, 04:14:57 PM
I believe that formula for calculating TX fee goes (I am not 100% sure):
normal_fee := 0.0005
size := X * 148 + Y * 34 + 10 +- X
fee := normal_fee / (1 - size / 500kB)
Is this is correct or I messed something?
This is for X inputs (with compressed keys) and Y outputs on a regular transaction that is spending coins, but OP wants to know about storing arbitrary data on the blockchain. If we take cryptograffiti[1] as a reference 2,000 bytes cost 0.00144600 BTC according to their preview. A ASCII picture like this costs ~0.03[2,3]. The limit on the costs is for one the fees needed for a TX and the max blocksize, but also that you need to burn bitcoin to an output that you will not be able to spend at a later date as its representing your data. There might be someday someone with the matching private key but the chances for that are as good as impossible.
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if you like it, leave a tip: 1P675gRxNwhFXgfuDu5yXwGDgwLDbXNJqz BM-2cUDAqyqcnksx7YDtgu2y72xDxcRjPeYfo
[1] http://cryptograffiti.info/ [2] http://cryptograffiti.info/?txnr=3334 [3] https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/tx/0fc0c50e410b62ee3a316135711116db6b4e728841c976f29ab85e2a41e0dcc3 That is very expensive and lame way of storing data unless the data is very important. Yeah seems pretty stupid to me. The best use would be to store hashes that convert to anything. A hash can convert into an entire book for example, and you can store the hash string for peanuts.
Title: Re: What stops people storing large objects on the blockchain?
Post by: spazzdla on August 05, 2015, 05:02:14 PM
I watched a video and it mentioned "anything can be stored on the blockchain". My question is if anything can be stored there then what will stop the blockchain size getting so big that nobody could store a copy of it?
Max block size cap is 1mb, thus it can only grow at 1mb / 10 min.
Title: Re: What stops people storing large objects on the blockchain?
Post by: RawDog on August 05, 2015, 05:28:37 PM
Yeah seems pretty stupid to me. The best use would be to store hashes that convert to anything. A hash can convert into an entire book for example, and you can store the hash string for peanuts. Pretty stupid is that you don't understand hashes. A hash - doesn't 'convert into an entire book' - or anything. How did the community get so many dumbasses?
Title: Re: What stops people storing large objects on the blockchain?
Post by: hexafraction on August 05, 2015, 05:44:37 PM
Yeah seems pretty stupid to me. The best use would be to store hashes that convert to anything. A hash can convert into an entire book for example, and you can store the hash string for peanuts. Pretty stupid is that you don't understand hashes. A hash - doesn't 'convert into an entire book' - or anything. How did the community get so many dumbasses? One thing to remember is that as Bitcoin is adopted more in the mainstream, there are going to be more people that don't understand basic crypto. Sad? Yes. Inevitable? Also yes.
Title: Re: What stops people storing large objects on the blockchain?
Post by: jonald_fyookball on August 05, 2015, 09:18:18 PM
Yeah seems pretty stupid to me. The best use would be to store hashes that convert to anything. A hash can convert into an entire book for example, and you can store the hash string for peanuts. Pretty stupid is that you don't understand hashes. A hash - doesn't 'convert into an entire book' - or anything. How did the community get so many dumbasses? lol. Well no need to be rude... but you're right. For the uninitiated: Hashes are one way functions. You can convert a book to a hash, but you cannot convert a hash to anything. You can only use to verify. P.S. Rawdog are you "part of the community" now? Weren't you on Youtube telling people to stay away?
Title: Re: What stops people storing large objects on the blockchain?
Post by: pereira4 on August 05, 2015, 09:45:01 PM
The future of decentralized storage is something like Maidsafe, it will be as easy as dropbox to use, just drag and drop and you are set, your files are spread across the globe and anonymously.
Title: Re: What stops people storing large objects on the blockchain?
Post by: RonPaulBTC on August 05, 2015, 09:55:17 PM
Yeah seems pretty stupid to me. The best use would be to store hashes that convert to anything. A hash can convert into an entire book for example, and you can store the hash string for peanuts. Pretty stupid is that you don't understand hashes. A hash - doesn't 'convert into an entire book' - or anything. How did the community get so many dumbasses? It should be noted - Sha256 does not encrypt the data/content of your string, it instead generates a fixed size hash, using your input string as a seed. This being the case - He got the idea wrong but he is right in the sense that I could feed in the content of an encyclopedia, which would be easily 100 mb in size of text, but the resulting string would still be 256 bits in size, but its impossible for you to reverse the hash, to get that 100mb of data back out of the fixed size hash, the best you can do, is try to guess / compute the seed data, hash, and then see if the hash matches the hash your trying to break. If you could reverse the hash, you would have the greatest form of compression to date. In any case, no need to be rude for no reason, we are here to learn, probably not even a native speaker. Now get your frustrated ugly bald head out of this forum and go back to being wrong on Youtube.
Title: Re: What stops people storing large objects on the blockchain?
Post by: hexafraction on August 05, 2015, 10:19:19 PM
If you could reverse the hash, you would have the greatest form of compression to date.
It wouldn't be compression. There would be plenty of other inputs of equal and shorter length than your encyclopedia, that theoretically would be a match. It would mean crypto is broken, but it would be by no means a reversible compression algorithm. Additionally, it should be noted that a hash is also key to proving that a piece of data existed. If I need to prove that I came up with a certain invention today, I'd write up an unambiguous description (including a possible random nonce at the end, and/or my name), hash it, and record the exact description that I hashed. I then push the hash to the blockchain (which implicitly timestamps it by way of including it in a block). This can be done using an OP_RETURN (truncating if hash is longer than 320 bits), or by creating a brainwallet from the hash and sending a small amount of coin to that wallet. In the case of the brainwallet, it's actually a COMPOUND hash (sha256 for private exponent, point multiplication to public key, and RIPEMD HASH160 to address). If I then need to prove that I had this invention at this exact time (for example in court), I simply publish the description (including random nonce and my name, exactly as they were in the input to the hash). Anyone can then hash that description, find the txn that included its hash, and be assured that I had access to that data on that day.
Title: Re: What stops people storing large objects on the blockchain?
Post by: lyf208617 on August 06, 2015, 02:59:00 AM
it is too expensive if you store large file on the blockchain
Title: Re: What stops people storing large objects on the blockchain?
Post by: S4VV4S on August 06, 2015, 09:24:55 AM
If you could reverse the hash, you would have the greatest form of compression to date.
It wouldn't be compression. There would be plenty of other inputs of equal and shorter length than your encyclopedia, that theoretically would be a match. It would mean crypto is broken, but it would be by no means a reversible compression algorithm. Additionally, it should be noted that a hash is also key to proving that a piece of data existed. If I need to prove that I came up with a certain invention today, I'd write up an unambiguous description (including a possible random nonce at the end, and/or my name), hash it, and record the exact description that I hashed. I then push the hash to the blockchain (which implicitly timestamps it by way of including it in a block). This can be done using an OP_RETURN (truncating if hash is longer than 320 bits), or by creating a brainwallet from the hash and sending a small amount of coin to that wallet. In the case of the brainwallet, it's actually a COMPOUND hash (sha256 for private exponent, point multiplication to public key, and RIPEMD HASH160 to address). If I then need to prove that I had this invention at this exact time (for example in court), I simply publish the description (including random nonce and my name, exactly as they were in the input to the hash). Anyone can then hash that description, find the txn that included its hash, and be assured that I had access to that data on that day. What you describe about using brainwallets to timestamp data is exactly what is being done at https://bitsig.io Well, it seems that someone has submitted the answers to the Rushwallet contest. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=793720.0) I do not understand why, but it's there. (https://bitsig.io/?page=2)
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