Bitcoin Forum

Inflation should NEVER EVER EVER EVER be a solution to anything unless you want to destroy bitcoin. The hard cap at 21 million is the main reason bitcoin is trusted. If you change the cap, all trust is lost FOREVER. It indicates that the number of bitcoin can be changed at will whenever, and if this is the case bitcoin is no better than any fiat like the us dollar or any other. It can be printed to infinity and thus hyper inflate and become worthless.

The cap must remain FOREVER if we want bitcoin to live. Change it just once and the trust is GONE. Even if inflation seems the only solution or else bitcoin will fail, we must just let it fail but fail as bitcoin truly is, 21 million ever only. This pressure of the 21 million cap adds stress to the system yes, but it is this stress that forces the value up and stores it. When the rewards half, it seems at first as it approaches like the miners will not be making enough money, but the market corrects itself and the price of bitcoin MORE THAN DOUBLES to compensate. It might take a year or so of pain, but the market correction ALWAYS HAPPENS, and the miners are getting paid what they need to be getting paid.

If this does not happen, the miners will move to a better currency and that is fine we can follow them there is we must. But bitcoin is not bitcoin if there are more than 21 million! As soon as you remove that cap and it is possible to inflate bitcoin, bitcoin is no more.

Of all the threats to bitcoin it is INFLATION that is the most dangerous because it is the only that could possibly happen. Miners could convince themselves that inflation is the only way to keep bitcoin going and all agree to fork to more than 21 million bitcoin, and if they did this they would violate the principles in bedded in bitcoin as a store of value that make it the greatest money on the planet and effectively destroy trust in bitcoin permanently. Even after just one act of inflation. This is the greatest threat to bitcoin.

If miners don't like bitcoin, they can mine for someone else, but they should not alter what makes bitcoin bitcoin. Change the block size, raise the fees, but NEVER INFLATE BITCOIN!! For the love of god and everything sacred in the world.

You are right, that's why I don't think the proposal of increasing the total number of coins would ever get any consensus, that's why im not worried about this. No one would win anything by doing this. If you are on BTC you simply don't benefit from such nonsense.

Am i missing somehing? Who is going to change the cap?

On the other hand, they are just numbers. (bitcoins) You can double the bitcoin count, their value will stay the same for 2x coins. So what is the problem?

Think about this, they are just numbers.

The problem is that those who have the most (but luckily not total) influence on this decision, are the ones who'd would receive the extra inflation into their pockets: The miners.

i should say, as the bitcoin reward halves, the price will be down, as the demand increases but the supply decreases.
this is no good as the division: minimum unit is 1 out of 100,000,000 , this would make the bitcoin price very high in order to control the demand, unless the unit could be even smaller, otherwise, i would wish to increase the supply in which depends on the demand.

the miners maybe, if the revenue of their whole mining farm will turn to dust with the next future halving, and with the possibility of bitcoin not growing as intended if this happen, maybe they could force to leave the already unprofitable block reward for a longer time by increasing the limit

basically a modify of the controlled supply, with the right consensus it can be made

If it is not profitable to mine bitcoins, they can always quit mining. I dont think anyone said them that mining will be %100 profitable.

Not profitable = gtfo. simple as that.

And i don't care if nobody would mine bitcoin because it is not profitable, let it die. Another Cryptocoin with much better specs will rise.

The only reason bitcoin is any better than regular fiat is that nobody can print bitcoin out of thin air the way regular fiat inflates. As soon as you allow bitcoins hard limit to be increased you effectively destroy the value storage property of bitcoin. I would completely selloff my bitcoins if the limit were ever increased. My trust in bit coin's value storage capacity rests entirely on the hard unchangeable limit.

lol you can't simply say let it die when bitcoin is the most used crypto and will be used more in the future, what about all those merchants which will use it for their business? fuck that too?

this is a legitimate concern, miners must make profit must be incentivated to mine, otherwise this whole thing will collapse

Mercs will take another crypto currency to sell their sh*t. Not a big deal. Problem solved.

If bitcoin dies, Miners will mine the new crypto coin. Another problem solved.

It is important to note that the Bitcoin network, from inception, has paid miners primarily through currency inflation. Fees are a tiny % of miner revenue.

For most of the Alt coins, that model has been catastrophic. For Bitcoin, due to a popularity surge (bubble?), the scheme has worked.

Unclear whether it can continue. Prices have been declining to flat for a long time now and mining is becoming very unprofitable.

If the prices are not going up, or staying same, maybe that means bitcoin isn't a huge invention at all... Maybe people are still preferring mastercard over bitcoin.

Just wait for someone to make another crypto with better specs and hope to succeed.

Bitcoin won't be mined in next 20 years for sure. Our progress is a lot faster now. I wouldn't be surprised if bitcoin was replaced by digital dollars or digital euro in the future.
Thinking we have more than 100 years with our current bitcoin tech is being extremely naive. Some better coin will arise. And BTW I doubt that anyone sane will want to change 21 million cap of bitcoin.
That will never happen.

The cap on amount of bitcoin keeps it to a minimum value as once it has all been mined there can be no more. Any suggestion of changing final total will have holders shouting scam.

Yes, you are right.
If the developers change this 21 million market cap then the people will not believe in Bitcoin anymore and start cashing out of it due to which the bitcoin prices will crash to the ground.

There's a relatively narrow window for it to take off properly when you take the block reward into account. It's possible but a long way from being in the bag yet.

If it did then it's quite possible that the thing named Bitcoin in 20-50 years will still be the top dog and the same in spirit but totally unrecognisable in technical terms. It takes decades to build trust in something so radical. That wouldn't be thrown away lightly.

Changing the 21 million cap would destroy bitcoin for good. That is the point of this thread. Yes miners must make a profit to be incentivised to mine but increasing the 21 million cap SHOULD NOT EVEN BE A CONSIDERATION to solve this problem. This is a simple matter of supply vs demand. The supply is constrained, bitcoin is scarce because of the 21 million cap, if the demand becomes higher than the supply, like after a halving of the reward, the PRICE MUST GO UP, that's economics 101. And if the price of bitcoin goes up to counter the demand vs supply, the miners are still making a profit.

The market will correct itself, but if the 21 million cap is changed all trust in bit coin's scarcity will be irretrievably lost and bitcoin will crash like a worthless fiat that can be printed to infinity.

half reward for double the price or double reward for half the price = the same $ to miner

The hard code of 21 million isnt inflation though.

Its only inflation if there was no hard code, and bitcoin was still pumping whenever we wanted like how a bank does with their fiat form.

I wonder if most of the people vote for uncapped bitcoin supply then is it possible to remove the 21M cap? Or only satoshi can make this kind of change ?

Fixed supply is bullshit. Bitcoin will change or will dye.

Care to explain why?

Fixed supply makes bitcoin valuable in the first place. Think simple: If everyone had as much bitcoin as he liked, would its price still be @ 230$?

no.

Disagree. Deflated medium of exchange. same exactly equal to gold. Surprisingly bitcoin can act as direct money also. When deflation is the main concern then bitcoin will serve us only as a medium of exchange. So 21M cap is not a problem.

I cannot see miners agreeing to raise that cap.  It would kill the trust of bitcoin.

While I think a min pay out of 10 bits (.000 01 bitcoin) would of been best, a fixed supply is just fine.  Bitcoin will not die because of a hard cap, it is to late now to add a min payout IMO.

If one is added then the idea that 21 coins will only exist is gone as people will think "if a min payout can be added what stops from chaing the cap from 21 mill to 21 bill"

it's based on consensus, if miners and merchant and the majority will vote against it(i highly doubt) then it will be removed with an hard fork

but usually those change go against the fundamental rule of bitcoin, and i doubt there will be any consensus against the supply cap

I am also completely against the inflation just like a majority of bitcoiners out there I suppose. Never would I change my mind. I am sure the consensus about this problematic would not be reached either.

Bitcoin is created to mimic gold by its supply. Satoshi created it like this. To change a supply would just be that you throwing away everything that Satoshi has envisioned. Bitcoin must remain scarce in order to be valuable.

It matters because of distribution.  This reminds me of stock issues and of course same deal that the total value of the company is not changed, the price just halves when you double the stock available.
However if the new stock is given out to different people, you enpower those new stock holders and destroy value for holders.   Its a terrible idea that only works in a company scenario with very strict rules, fund raising.  There is no viable BTC fund raising and no way to contact holders for a 'rights issue' it would only lead to one conclusion; a fall in value.

  An induced failure by misunderstanding and corruption of the bitcoin protocol

Therefore i believe 21 million cap is the core to everything that ensures bitcoin existence. People buy into bitcoin because they know there is that much bitcoin amount that will ever be in circulation. It is based in this concept that people see something within it.

But it isn't that what makes it valuable?

They are not just numbers but currency. And every currency if increase in amount incurs the decrease of value. It is the law of demand-request. More in market few the value. Are to many who sell that product and the price will go down. the same with bitcoin. It is a currency but a product to.

I am also against increasing the supply to more than 21m but cap should be removed to make up for the lost bitcoins.I read somewhere here on forum that a lot of bitcoins have been lost and can not be recovered back again.So I think more should be created to make up for this loss

If they do this everyone will dump their coins in panic, so what do they have to win by doing that?
As OP said, killing the hardcap wouldn't be Bitcoin anymore, it would be some derivative coin that isn't Bitcoin. Bitcoin = 21 million maxcap, is a core principle.