Bitcoin Forum

Well since everyone is talking about Ethereum, let's discuss possibilities with NXT. Vitalik expressed scepticism about implementing a scripting blockchain mechanism on any other than the very core level.

NXT can already store data of up to 40kb+. I think nxt is just strategically waiting to see how ethereum does before jumping in.

What I wonder about ethereum, if they were to make the same exact apps that nxt has and since its open sourced where anyone can just fork one another. Wouldn't that be a bit messy if there are like 5 different chat apps or 10 different asset exchanges on top of ethereum?

Reminds me of NXT MS, which was not a very big success. In fact, it is largely unused and forgotten now. Everyone could have their coin easily inside NXT, secured by it's blockchain, but nobody utilized it. Was it because of the fees? Because there are also fees on the Ethereum network.

Unless you fork it, then you can run your very same apps for free.

Ethereum could end up being the most cloned coin with some kind of a browser plugin for individual blockchains

I still believe NXT has a great potential, with the active dev team and a lot of ongoing projects! It has a lot of features that Ethereum doesn't has! Ethereum is just specialized in the area of Smart Contracts! I cannot see the reasons NXT will fail to  Ethereum! Guys, just keep your faith on NXT!

There was a turing complete "automated transactions (https://nxtforum.org/automated-transactions/)" system being developed for Nxt by Ciyam. I remember from a certain point there were hot debates if it was too risky or if the blockchain would bloat or some other issue, so at the end the project was scrapped.
Ciyam work (http://www.ciyam.org/at/) was later used by Qora Burst that, I believe, is the first coin with turing complete scripting but I never tried it. I think Qora Burst is based on Nxt code so, in theory, it shouldn't be hard to adapt it to Nxt

It's entirely possible that Nxt will get back to that project but not before having blockchain pruning and other functionalities that can avoid the bloating. A limited version of scripting called "smart contracts (https://nxtforum.org/smart-contracts/)" (that is not "turing complete") is definitely in the plans.

can someone explain what exactly is turing complete? and how is it different from java or php or javascript programming?

Turing completeness refers to the ability to implement a Turing machine emulation, which in turn implies the ability to implement any conventional logic.

So, something like Java, PHP or Javascript are all Turing complete, regular expressions are not. Bitcoin scripts are not Turing complete because they have no loop operations.

That help?

I was wrong yesterday, there is an ETH thread buried deep in the NXT forum in "off-beat".

There is a KEY POST there by k_day:

"In theory, ETH can do infinitely more than NXT/NEM because it includes turing complete scripting language...
It's the opposite approach to NXT: NXT adds features they think Devs want, ETH lets Devs code whatever they want." 

To use a metaphor, NXT is the Monetary System which has been ignored by elite Devs as too limited/simplistic...
ETH is a great language similar to JavaScript on a blockchain where Devs have virtually no limitations.

ETH has and will attract orders of magnitude more elite Devs than NXT/NEM type platforms...
That's why it's doubled on massive volume last 48 hours to $90,000,000... and may eventually challenge BTC.

As for bolting on turing complete scripting languages onto NXT/NEM/QORA...
It's all about network effect for elite Devs where ETH now has a 10:1 or 20:1 advantage.

Neither NXT nor NEM have actually implemented smart contracts in their platforms but you can bet developers at both platforms are thinking about it.  In some ways it pays to be second when implementing smart contracts as the first guy very well might mess up and lessons can be learnt from that.  

It can also be said that scope of vision for Ethereum is much broader in that they want you to be anything and everything from the core of the platform and they "wanted" it to be Turing complete but that has had some flip flopping back and forth on it.  

In the end, it is very possible either NXT or NEM might someday allow people to do most of the things most of the time when they are finished with their smart contract implementations.  Yes, that won't be the "anything everytime" that Ethereum is doing, but NEM and NXT might just find a way via easy to use APIs which don't involve intense coding that "elite devs" might be into, but might more target regular devs doing real regular projects.  

But the real truth is, all this is speculation.  All three platforms are at least a year away from have anything to do with smart contracts that isn't experimental.  In Ethereum's maybe a couple of years as their goal post is set quite a bit further down the line.  

As somebody else already mentioned too, Ciyam has already released his smart contracts for 6 or something different cases and almost any platform that has a decent dev could implement them.  Its just that there really probably only a handful of teams in crypto that actually could do smart contracts right.  

Also, a lot of Ethereum's devs are not necessarily better than the devs at NEM or NXT, but they are far less anonymous and have been involved with other projects before Ethereum.  They were then able to use their connections and name's to build up a giant hype machine and then attract more devs.  But had the NEM or NXT devs been given 12 million dollars, you would have seen a lot more than command line smart contracts by now; you can take that to the bank.  Instead the NXT and NEM devs are very talented but a bit over looked and underestimated due to their lack of not having been BTC's insiders in the early days.  (or if they are, having it covered up for privacy reasons. Hint: they are, and in the case of the NXT original thread for sure BC NXT says straight up that he is an old timer in BTT but has made a sock puppet account)

Qora was not the first integrating AT into the core and is not a NXT clone. BURST from the other hand which is a NXT clone ( using different proof, called proof of work ) is the first platform with AT. I am not sure about the latest commits of NXT but for sure it would be very easy to port it from BURST. ( https://github.com/BurstProject/burstcoin/tree/master/src/java/nxt/ ) 

The fact that Eth is turing complete doesn't mean that it's both scalable and cost effective building *everything* on top of it. Ethereum may be useful for certain applications and, at the same time, be a costly rube-goldberg machine for others.
My opinion is that Ethereum will find its field in decentralized applications run by corporations and individuals that really need this kind of services and can afford the hardware and transaction costs. It will not be something that you use as savings or for buying groceries, let alone something that takes over Bitcoin.

Btw it still needs a lot of work, it's a bloat machine that will take another year or two of efforts before being ready for practical applications. By that time Nxt will have non-turing complete smart contracts and SuperNet will have a growing user base. If Ethereum proves it's useful it can join SuperNet or interface through some agent.

Thanks for the correction, it definitely can be done.

About point 2. Why is the discussion not the be disclosed ?