Bitcoin Forum

As long as government exists, there will be taxation. Since any major merchant/producer have a reviser, and they have a balance sheet and inventory list, they will not be able to pass the declaration inspection, even if they use BTC as the only method of transaction, BTC can not be formally accepted in any accounting systems known of today

If government want to put some limitation on BTC, they can also do some block on the major IP backbone, so that BTC protocol's port get blocked

I think the first big success for BTC will be happened on a tax heaven where there is no regulation on economy activities

You can always sell them as soon as you get them and record the value in your national currency. I see no big problem here. If there is enough volume in future, the laws and regulations will be created to make bitcoin accounting possible.

Biggest obstacle is gaining the trust of the people at large. Not easy if you consider what's happened and how easy it will be for big corp mass media to spin things against bitcoin.

maybe keep a completely separate encrypted inventory list and books for things that are being accounted for in bitcoin?

I think that in many "western" countries taxation itself has been moving from income tax to consumption tax (making it more relevant how you spend your money than how you earn it) and at the same time banks have been tending to report all account tx's to tax bureaus (and will generally withhold a large percentage of interest payments without customers providing their tax reporting information).

This tends to make it actually not difficult at all for governments to tax people who convert BTC to their local currency (via a bank transfer) and looking at the identification requirements that many of the BTC exchanges are requiring I can't see how people can in any way easily avoid government scrutiny with any serious amounts of money.

Basically if you are using an exchange to convert a large amount of BTC to any fiat currency then I think the chances of avoiding detection (and thus taxation) by the government is rather small.

P.S. In regards to SR perhaps the whole "war on drugs" could simply be turned into another profitable sales tax by legalization. :)

Completely invalid since accepting bitcoin is sort of like bartering in the eyes of governments, and barter is already taxed (in case you didn't know). If they can tax and enforce taxation on barter, I don't see why they couldn't do the same with bitcoins (not that I support this heinous thievery).

My personal 2 cents is the complexity of use is the biggest barrier for most. What seems second nature to most on this forum would be a daunting task for most. I think a large part of this complexity is due to the extra ordinary precautions that one must take in order to secure their wallet from theft. The conversion from Fiat Currency and back again is also an involved and sometimes nerve racking process.

The currency exchange and wallet process needs to be revamped in my opinion or BTC will remain with ranks of technophiles only. I have introduced BTC to others in my family and among my friends and the majority have difficulty grasping the nuances and complexities needed to manage this type of currency.

Even the mining process involves undo complexity in my opinion. The model for ease of use, which I believe needs to be pervasive throughout the system, can be seen in the likes of the Bitminter client. The average consumer has very little patience for complexity and will gladly sacrifice features and flexibility for solid performance and repeatable experiences. (E.G. McDonald's, Apple etc). Ultimately, I believe, that the BTC community must transform from a cloistered technology community to that of a customer service focused business model; which puts the average consumers needs as the first priority.

I think this is very true - and I don't think governments have anything to worry about Bitcoin when it comes to that (as average consumers are already happy to give out all of their personal information to use credit cards anyway).

I gave up on the whole notion of online privacy years ago - I believe the only effective online privacy is not to be online. I like being online so I accept that everything I do or say can potentially be seen and used by others, so I try to conduct myself accordingly. I safeguard those things that are vital with perhaps an overzealous degree of flair (my wallet is on a stand alone double encrypted drive with a password that exceeds 30 character in length), the rest I don't worry about. I have a hard time envisioning most people I know managing a bootable truecrypt drive just to protect their Bitcoin wallet. Some standardized, easy and safe way must be devised before the "masses" will even give it a try.

ya and it will only take one or two grannies and housewives to get their wallet nicked for the media to decry what a scam and how unsafe bitcoin is. Believe this people.

You are unfortunately very correct. Until the design can virtually guarantee, absent gross negligence, the safety of your wallet and ease of currency transformation, we will be stuck in our little world of our own making.

All very true - but to be a little more positive there has been quite a bit of work on improving this (multi-sig being perhaps the most significant achievement even though still not yet user friendly).

Give it some time and I think the solutions will be coming.

The biggest obstacle? Infinite stupidity, of course!

Vlad, get your reporters on that GLBSE thing happening right now. This has potential to be a huge scoop.

Do you really expect your grandmother to understand ECDSA (and I admit I have only a basic understanding of this myself) in order to hold on to her money?

(not trying to be offensive but I think it is important that we don't expect the "end users" of Bitcoin to all be so computer/algorithmically literate)

but perhaps you are instead referring to ponzi schemes ;)

OK, we need just the black market and an offshore bitcoin currency exchange.

I agree completely. Being condescending to someone with less computer skills is probably not a "feel good" adoption marketing strategy. I have been working in the computer field (for many) years. There are still facets of Bitcoin that I find challenging. I see a lot of strides being made and that is good, but the most important piece is the "attitude" we take towards people like Grandma, or our friend who still has a flip phone etc.

If we treat people with contempt and disdain because they do not understand as much about computers as we do, then widespread adoption will be hard pressed. People are not stupid merely because they do not understand computers as well as some; they often have skills that are focused in other areas. My father is a mechanical engineering genius, but has never really used a computer for much in his life. I can only aspire to be as smart as he is. He laughs when I can not do complex math in my head and He is amazed at my skills with computers. We all have different talents. The key here is make a system that will enable the largest demographic, as reasonable, to take advantage of Bitcoin as a currency. I am excited to see some of the developments I have read about coming to fruition. I would not be investing money and mining Bitcoin if I did not fundamentally believe that it is capable of widespread adoption.

I'm downloading the blockchain right now, it seems to be "more infinite" than stupidity. And this is the biggest obstacle.

Yup - very important - my math skills suck yet I am able to build a complete web site in C+ (with no scripting apart from some UI stuff) in minutes.

I was amazed to find out recently that my nephew has a Rasberry Pi when I had never even heard of such a thing before - trying to say that Bitcoin belongs to some sort of "ultra geek club" will never help the general adoption of Bitcoin - but good software will.

In regards to the blockchain download - yes that is a problem (but you can download it as a set of files and there are other clients that don't need to use it).

hmm.... perhaps someone needs to set up "donwload 1 hour old blockchain in 5 minutes" service... steal this idea.

No. Imagine what will happen if everyone uses clients that don't need full blockchain.

True - but I really don't think there is going to be much alternative for the average person (who is really going to wait potentially days for their software to start working?).

It doesn't seem to matter how many websites lose everyone's coins, people keep on insisting on using them.

So most people are probably just going to be using websites, any maybe the more like PayPal those websites seem to the users the more popular they will be and the more coins they will get to run away with when they run away.

But hey, there are a few that have not run away yet and people keep on using those. So whats the problem, really?

-MarkM-

There is a potential: Even a normal user can not fully understand these complexity around BTC, a pension fund can. Since BTC has gained popularity, it will become one of the candidate in their investment portfolio. And actually this is very positive to economy, since now people can be sure that their retirement is secured and they will stop saving and start to spend

Imagine if we all went to the Dunkin' Doughnuts on the corner of 38th and Walnut at 9am on Wednesday!

Nothing? Miners would do it exclusively?

+1 on everything you wrote in this thread
However, may I suggest you try our Paytunia wallet (with a Yubikey as our optional second factor of authentication) : that's a lot easier and very secure for any amount that it is reasonable to hold in a wallet (ie the amount of cash people carry around in general). Any amount above and beyond that qualifies as savings and should be held in a paperwallet imho.

we REALLY need to be able to buy and sell bitcoin with one button.  none of this anal raping we gotta go through.  I'm in australia, and we don't have too many options.  CryptoXchange charges $20 to cash out!  what a rip

Blockchain is the core of Bitcoin. Everything that doesn't rely on the blockchain is perversion of Satoshi's idea.

I say we design the "end user experience" around a hardware wallet (that does nothing but sign transactions) and make the vendors house the blockchain. Then the average end user only needs to know/keep the private key, and can use bitcoin at Point of Sale.

First step is to design a low cost bitcoin pos machine - that we can provide for cheap or no cost to the the vendor. If it's marketed correctly, we could see stores hanging bitcoin signs and offering discounts for using it.

except that he mentions the simplified payment verification idea in the whitepaper

Brilliant. If this isn't already being done, let's get to it.

Easy as pie, if we use a combination of smart-phone technology. So the vendor has a unique, generated QR code containing an address and the amount of the sale on a screen that you use an app to scan and hit 'pay'. Bingo.

The other method would be to have a 'debit card' type solution, where you have a registered card with the necessary key to sign a transaction, and you can just swipe and go. Firmware updates could make current gen credit card swipes able to use this tech through a verification and allocation company like the bank that handles the credit card machines. It would accept the transaction from your account, signed by way of the card, deduct a processing fee, and send it to the account for the business. With a book-keeping system, the host company can easy process refunds and chargebacks.

depends on how you look at taxes.. if put back in a community.. lets say infrastructure, the firedepartment etc. etc. tax is not only about thievery if well used ...

But this is a problem if btc get really really adopted by the general public...in EU lots of tax money from hard working people at the moment is send to self created over paid jobs at Brussels 25k p/m that is thievery... ;)

QR generated by the merchant's existing POS or computer would be workable (smartphone wallets only).

But the swipe a card doesn't work for security. We don't want the merchant's machine signing our transaction using our private key - way too much potential for theft that way. Back to a hardware device that signs for us (wouldn't have to be plugged in, maybe using something like paypass?)

But you see, it's EXACTLY like a credit card in the respect of trust. When you swipe your card, I can take your info and charge however much I want to it, especially online. The verification groups would be trusted, and would in turn evaluate the trustworthiness of the vendor. Bitcoin fraud would be just as traceable as creditcard fraud. Even moreso for the fact that the blockchain has every transaction ever, making any stolen fraction of a bitcoin traceable.

Except we need to better than credit cards, or wheres the incentive to use bitcoin for the average joe.

bitcoin has too much of a bad rep, too much of the current community wanting it to stay anonymous, and too many not wanting to lose its silk road ties so they can carry on buying drugs. all reducing trust when it comes to legitimate real world adoption.

i think maybe litecoin should be adopted as the mass market currency, as the stepping stone to bitcoin. its already available via some exchanges,  does not have the illegal stigma of silkroad or other bad press stuff. so maybe thats the way forward. litecoin for merchants and bitcoin for the anonymous..

and its a close second to bitcoin in the crypto currencies.

every bitcoin technology is compatible with litecoin and litecoin is so new that it does not have the bad rep. so lets treat litecoin as the new real world merchant version of crypto.

to instantly gain trust, reduce fraud and raise traceability, all the client needs to do is have a registered username which all addresses in the wallet are linked to. so the block chain can see whoo is doing what.

this will reduce fraud considerably. and gain trust. (not perfect but its a start)

any other idea's to make litecoin trustworthy for merchants.. as i feel bitcoin has its niche market and wants to stick with it. and wont be dragged out of the dark easily

I may be biased as a computer repairer but probably 1 in 4 people have a significantly dangerous virus on their PC.  That means 1 in 4 would get their bitcoin wallet stolen.  In fact, who says the repair technician they bring it to doesn't steal their wallet file too?  And people in general aren't known for their strong passwords.  The only way bitcoins will "work" on a huge scale is if nobody ever catches any malware ever.

The Blockchain.info (https://blockchain.info/wallet/iphone-app) wallet already has this functionality. Both vendor and customer need no additional hardware. People just need to start experimenting with using bitcoins. The current tools for experimentation are already there for the average person.

With BitInstant (http://www.bitinstant.com) they can buy $40 worth of coins at 7-11 and start playing with it. As they start playing with it they will get more competent; just like they are more competent with online banking, email, etc.

There needs to be an idiot-proof hardware wallet (dongle-like contraption or QR code scanner+keygen/signer).

I have to agree here, the number of ways that a user can end up losing their bitcoins to a thief is large. The solution to this problem requires probably just as much genius as creating the bitcoin itself.

Actually I think commercial banks can provide same services to BTC deposits as they do for US Dollar today, a web based or card based payment service. They have less risk of running into problem for US dollar deposits due to the monetary policies of FED

Both buyers and sellers can use also the paytunia wallet (https://paytunia.com) to send/receive coins on their smartphone (app on Google play or html5 version of paytunia.com for iPhones).

Buyers can get bitcoins for euros fast using instawire (https://instawire.org).

Kanguru secure flash drives are pretty easy.  Just get an incomplete block chain downloading client, your wallet, and throw both on there an encrypt em with a password.

nice 'plug' advertising ur concepts for dongle devices which u probably are gonna be the designers of.. so good on you for ur free adverts. but that sidesteps the topic at hand.

go speak to some businesses and ask them what they would do/need/want to accept bitcoin. no point talking to the already bitcoin adopted crowd of 50k regular users and ignore the voices of the 7 billion un-initiated.

the issues i see are this
1) bad rep bitcoin has due to hacking
2) bad rep due to silk road
3) bitcoin current users dont want transparancy of trades as it goes against the anonymity they 'deem' to think is their right with bitcoin.


now i said it before but the best way to get crypto currency mainstreamed is to get bitcoin green.. and there too much head banging going on between anonymous users and reputable users..

so the solution.. get another crypto to be the mainstream real world merchant currency so that bitcoin can be cash to for instance litecoins credit card.

bitcoin technology coding is easily transferable to litecoin. so it is effortless to implement hotwallet and cold wallet stuff. lite coin has no bad rep. so lets use litecoin to be the creditcard digital currency real world merchants use which would get more traction for bitcoin without the anonymous users throwing their hands up in disapproval of change to bitcoin.

I would say it's good rep. Proves that bitcoins r untraceble. Everyone uses cash which has "worse" rep.

It's bad rep in a business situation.
Any currency that enables drug trade is going to be of interest to the government and is liable to be shut down, or at least restricted by them. You may not think that sort of sanction a big deal, but for a business, it's a major issue.

silk road is good?

if u just want bitcoin to stay anonymous for illegal purchases then the only solution is to forget about getting bitcoin to the mass market. but use a different crypto for legitimate transactions/businesses

i think litecoin would be the solution to a non government controlled digital currency for world wide legitimate businesses. as illegal activities is too ripe with bitcoin.

You speak a lot of sense, this is the thing I've noticed when talking about bitcoin.... not everyone is a computer nerd and undestands this stuff, until bitcoin has some standards, a degree of fool-proofness, and an easy to use interface, bitcoin will be stuck in a world of our making.

Also, to add my potential obstacle...

the very fact its called "bitcoin".... the way the word sounds, and the fact it makes you think of "coins", in my view, leads to an instant none understanding, a conflict of thoughts I thoughts, its called bitCOIN, but its not a coin.... call it internetmoney, and instantly you know what it is. Also "mining" - the general public do not really need to know about this, it again creates confusion "but how can a computer make bitcoins" - that blows the average persons head! Just call it "transaction processers" - they get rewarded in internetmoney for keeping the internetmoney network running....

Bitcoin needs a rebrand, one that customers (and that is what "the general public" are at the moment - I think the forum and bitcoin industry forget that sometimes) can instantly identify with, and hey, get it right and it before long it could be the next massive thing :).

You are right, it's not obvious how the system works.
A rebrand could work, but as I see it, it's more likely to cause confusion.

i already thought of rebranding bitcoin.. but it still wont stop hackers, frauds and illegal drugs/ fake Id transactions from tainting the views of the normal world of business and consumers when seeing bitcoin.

u can rename a spade a shovel.. but its still gonna look dirty if u use it..

thus a different crypto would be the only solution to a full rebrand for mass adoption.

rebranding and switching to a different crypto are non-starters. Even if you made it an exact clone (to tap into existing hardware) you'd never get adoption and the two would just fight each other. Not to mention losing all bitcoin's name recognition and momentum.

We need to make a bulletproof hardware device that's so easy anyone can use it (aka it won't confuse iphone users). I would be best if it were sleek, stylish and well designed. And it should require proof of life as a second factor, so nobody can steal it shoot you and still use it.

yeeeeah, I don't work for Kanguru or I'd probably be able to afford one.  Nice guess though, lol.

Is there a currency or store of value imune to drug trade, scams and theft?

No, but one that specifically has a reputation as being preferred and used by those groups is going to be watched harder.

Agreed, but IMO most criminals still much prefer ca$h to BTC. :)

internet and digital financial investigations has the lowest priority in most countries .i think maybe because;

a) it,s not sexy for criminal investigation department (they rather show of kg of seized drugs or goods which  creates false sense of security
b) it,s to diverse and already to big like an drop in the ocean to investigate.
c) capacity problems of the investigation offices, the manpower.
d) there are priorities to make and it isn,t btc  

hell yes :P remember those big ass like 1 ton rock wheels that some island people used for currency?  Good luck stealing one of those!  And they're all pretty darn uniquely identifiable.  If Jim bought some drugs then you'd be like hey, what's Bob doing with Jim's rock?

I thought the bigass ones were just the ridiculous value rocks, much like the US used to mint $100000 bills for internal treasury movements. I'm pretty sure they had small ones for actual transactions.

I can see why switching to a different crypto is a none starter - but not rebranding, maybe we need to loose the bitcoin name recognition!

The momentum wouldnt stop, people who know about it and use it now will know the new name and thus continue to use it, the general public who haven't heard of it yet (but more than likely heard something about some funny internet money that got hacked, this stuff sits in peoples consciousness, there, but not enough to recall) will learn it by the new brand, something that doesnt confuse the hell of them. How many times are you met with utter confusion when you try and explain bitcoin "but how do computers make money" "who gives it the value" - calling something a coin that is not actually a coin, it just the first mental trip wire that goes on in peoples heads (in my opinion, based on nothing but my own view point,observations and life experiences)

"What's in a name? that which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet"

Also, I think a rebranding project might actually run better than a lot of big companies do, I mean, its open source, shit gets done when everyone chips in.

I think any publicity is good at this point... the time table for mainstream adoption isn't quick. We're talking at the very least a couple of years (more likely 5 or 10). So while publicity from sr and ponzi schemes seems bad right now... if a few year or 5 or 10... then it becomes an asset to bitcoin, because the network and the community survived it. just my opinion tho.

If you do start a rebranding campaign - that's an epic undertaking, you've have to get pretty much everyone on-board with that or it wouldn't stick.