Bitcoin Forum

I am not often on reddit, I don't even have an account there, but yesterday I spend some hours looking into the drama that happened/is still happening there.
Do you want to know, what other people are thinking about that? I got a mail from the LTB network(I hardly ever get mails from them, so it seems to  be an important topic from them) to look at this thread:
https://letstalkbitcoin.com/forum/post/upcoming-bitcoin-hard-fork-r-bitcoin-censorship

So, I thought, maybe they have learned, but what do I see after I got here today: censorship again. Seems like the pro-XT-threads are moved to the altcoin-section and the anti-X-Threads are allowed to stay.
Seriously, nobody in his right mind, regardless of where he stands in this discussion, can think about these other than a big abuse of power.

So:
Theymos or any other mod: What is wrong with you? Who do you think you are? The new dictators of every Bitcoin discussion. Do you really think, that is what Satoshi wanted?

i hate XT, but his random post deletion is absolutely unacceptable to most of the posters.
he should stop himself from banning those threads otherwise i would see a disaster of the reddit (r/bitcoin).

Why moved to the alt-coin boards?
I thought Bitcoin XT worked with Bitcoins as an alternative client.
I haven't read or heard anywhere that it functions with any other coin.

Also, I agree that this should be open for discussion and not be censored, not because I support one side or the other but because that is how Bitcoin was built.
Censorship is against what Bitcoin supports IMO.

I do also think that we have way too many threads on the subject.
Perhaps someone should create just ONE thread with all the pros and cons of both clients and the discussion can take place there.
No need for all these threads, nor the drama.

tis Theymos' board


you're perfectly free to start your own and run it like you see fit ;)

I've been seeing tons of threads over at reddit, tbh there is an answer and that is to make your own social networks if you disgaree with current options.  Bitcoin could do with more forums etc to become more distributed.

I didnt see anything strange here. BitcoinXT is an altcoin and has nothing to do with bitcoin.

It is not just an alternative client, but is intended to be a fork in the future. This is nothing more and nothing less than an altcoin.
The altcoin section on Bitcointalk is more or less hidden for months now, because of the spamming, so why not doing the same on /r/Bitcoin?

Naming an altcoin BitcoinXT isn't enough to replace Bitcoin, even when a main Bitcoin developer says it does. I still wonder why Gavin is going through all that, knowing he is dividing the community.

I repsect Gavin too much before this. Now i only see a shady person that act for his secret own propose. this is very pathetic and i am very sad for him. He break his reputation in the real bitcoin community and not in the financial market community that it seeems that is the BitcoinXT target space.

Could you please not hijack my thread with your bullshit?
If you agree with what the mods are doing: Fine, that is your opinion.
But I don't want this thread do get full of this nutjob conspiracy theories.
This thread is not about BitcoinXT itself, there are plenty of other threads about that.

OK Ms. First World Problem Lady, what you need to understand is...




































https://i.imgur.com/fAvNUCn.jpg

Source:

haha, exactly, and people should start to realize it, there is nothing that they cant do againts that, if you dont like it, just dont come here, as simply as that.

And here i am i dont know what is this all about, Can someone explain me in simple words what this is all about? What is XT? Sorry i dont have much knowledge about technical stuff behind bitcoin. But this seems to be a big issue from what i can see.

Censorship is bad, and usually it comes to action when there is something to hide.

1) There is nothing wrong with them.
2) This isn't censorship.
3) What is wrong with you? You created the thread in the wrong section (i.e. B. Discussion; in addition to there being a thread for this).

I just can't understand why people can't follow simple rules. r/Bitcoin is meant for Bitcoin only, and not for any other altcoin or programmed altcoin (i.e. XT). Theymos is such a good person that he has given other coins a section in his forum that is meant for Bitcoin (i.e. BITCOINtalk.org), yet people complain. Sigh.

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I also don't understand how a reasonable person can accept/support XT.

I've seen quite a few people throwing this Theymos quote around, so let's actually take a closer look at it:


To summarise, he's basically saying if the economy doesn't follow the miners, there's a problem.  Which is a negative spin.

But at the same time, the statement would be equally true if he had phrased it to say that if the economy does follow the miners, there isn't a problem.  Positive spin.  

A subtle change in emphasis makes all the difference.  The only thing he's really giving here is an opinion.  He thinks a fork would be bad and he's trying to make it sound as scary as possible.  He's more than welcome to his opinion, but it's not beyond repute.

If Bitcoin forks and people go with the flow, everything keeps working normally.  There is no drama.  First we'll see if the network reaches the consensus threshold and if that happens, we'll then see who tries to fight the current and gets swept away.  That's how it would work regardless of what the client is called or who coded it.  If it was bitcoin core that introduced the 8mb patch, the fork would occur once the network reaches the consensus threshold and if that happens, we'll then see who tries to fight the current and gets swept away.  Same story, different name.  At the end of the day, it makes no difference.  Another equally valid outcome is that the alternative client reaches consensus and the core devs concede and release a version of core supporting 8mb blocks and then there's no bickering over a silly name or the personalities involved.

It's only an altcoin if it forks without consensus.  If he wants to keep moving threads to altcoins because of his opinion, I honestly couldn't care less.  It's only going to polarise the discussion, encourage controversy and make people dig their heels in.  If anything, it's generating more support for the alternative client than there otherwise would be.

There is nothing wrong here. Altcoin discussions belong to that subforum/subreddit. I don't want to read any altcoin discussion in Bitcoin subreddit or Bitcoin forum.

And what really buggers me about that, is that he doesn't even express the opinion, that BitcoinXT is an altcoin. I looked into this other thread, I missed before I made this one and theymos doesn't even try to defend his censorship, he just doesn't talk about it at all.
It's sad to see, how this whole debate brought out the worst in so many people and they don't even realize it. I don't think, a lot of them have reflected about, if what they are doing is ethically right.
You just see all the stupid propaganda that you see in politics. So, far about Bitcoin will overthrow all that evil politics.

This debate started years ago.  If it "brought out the worst in so many people and they don't even realize it" that happened a long time ago, before you got here.  So how would you be able to tell the difference, having never known most of us before "this whole debate" mutated us into neckbearded C.H.U.D.?  The answer is, you can't and are simply making stuff up.

You're just upset because feeling very strongly in favor of XT is not enough to magically raise the block size limit.

So here you are, pouting again.  In the wrong sub, no less.  Telling the sysop how to run his board.  And you're getting away with it.

Here, you can even say stuff like "WTF MILLIONS FOR YET ANOTHER FUCKING FORUM AND PENNIES FOR DDOS PROTECTION, HOW MUCH ARE YOU EMBEZZLING THERMOS?!" and it's cool.  Thermos doesn't GAF.  Watch this:


See?  It's fine.  Happens all the time!  Whatever.   8)

You can even mention altcoins on Bitcoin threads (we frequently mention Monero on Frap.doc's thread, just to piss him off, LOL).  All you have to do is follow the rules about keeping (altcoin) posts in the proper (altcoin) subs.  Once you stop pouting, it's pretty easy.

It's hard to find a more chill admin than thermos.  That's why he was Chosen by Satoshi to run the place.

If you think you can do a better job moderating, https://voat.co/v/bitcoinxt could really use your help!

75% is not real consensus. Introducing checkpoints to ignore the longest chain is not consensus either. I do wonder how you ignore the buggy "patches" within XT, since you seem to approve (approve =/= support) of it?

What is also interesting is that I've yet to see a reputable member switch to XT. More and more shills are joining the discussion in addition to a few legendary accounts waking up (coincidence? I think not).

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Update:
I'm solely talking about shills that are defending XT, which makes me think this was carefully planed some time before it started. Your first post was made in this very thread.

https://i.imgur.com/DCnDovk.jpg?1

OP, does that answer your question?

IceBreaker is very reputable i'm sure.....

First person that comes to mind is LiteCoinGuy. He made a lot of helpful threads e.g. the hardware wallet-thread.
Is he not reputable ?
and btw. that is one of the points, that make this discussion so ridiculous: all this conspiracy theories and calling everybody a shill or sockpuppet, that is not the same opinion even from respected members(and yes, it is on both sides)

As far as if heard, there is a large block only version of BitcoinXT. I haven't set up my full node yet, but I will go for that.

Ah yes, LiteCoinGuy. I have questioned his support, but he has failed to answer. I was talking more in the lines of DannyHamilton, DeathAndTaxes, tomatocage, etc. However, a lot of these members have not clarified their stance, or are choosing to ignore the debate (publicly at least) entirely.

This is not a conspiracy theory. I was talking about new accounts popping up and rushing into XT discussions showing off support. Most of those are nothing other than shills.

This is because a few people caught on that those patches as they call them, are bad. It would be hard though in the future to introduce something that would disregard/make such clients obsolete.

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Update: Some corrections.

What exactly are you questioning? He supports it, he even made a thread about it.
And I don't wonder, that other people don't show their stance, like I said, the whole thing has become so ridiculous.
Do quote one of this new accounts.

You should be long enough on this forum to know, that this also happens all the time. It even happens in small discussions. No big conspiracy there, just people who use the anonymity of the internet.
I am not sure, what you want to tell me.

I suggested to rename the Forum to Gavincointalk a while back. Nobody listened. If people would have listened we would not have this discussion right now.
What's wrong with you people? Let's just push for renaming the forum to Gavincointalk to let Thermos know where it's at. Thank you for your attention.

hmmm   ??? is BitcoinXT and Bitcoin one and the same?

if the answer is yes then bitcoinXT does not need a thread as there is one for bitcoin already.
if the answer is no then join the shitcoin club in alt announcements and shut the fuck up.

Btw I will use this occasion to announce my LitecoinXT project coming soon.  :-*

I'm questioning why. XT is not the right way, especially not with the implemented "patches" and controversial ideas that Hearn has.

Here is one of the accounts, usually insulting non XT supporters. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=530648)
There you have it, first post.

That you will not possibly be able to run such a client.

No.

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No, they are not. XT is a programmed altcoin.

Relevance?

In my opinion they made a choice and it is that Xt is not the path of BTC development in its present form.
While it may not be a real satoshi post it does ring a true sentiment that it is a minority of users that want to move to Xt while the rest are still determining the best possible alternatives and options worth consideration.

http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-August/010238.html

Making Bitcoin a competitive monetary system while also preserving its security properties is not a trivial problem, and we should take more time to come up with a robust solution.  I suspect we need a better incentive for users to run nodes instead of relying solely on altruism

If two developers can fork Bitcoin and succeed in redefining what "Bitcoin" is, in the face of widespread technical criticism and through the use of populist tactics, then I will have no choice but to declare Bitcoin a failed project.  Bitcoin was meant to be both technically and socially robust.  This present situation has been very disappointing to watch unfold.

BitcoinXT is an altcoin and therefore belongs to the altcoin section of this forum. I find it perfectly reasonable.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c90/sc4087/Notthisagain.jpg (http://media.photobucket.com/user/sc4087/media/Notthisagain.jpg.html)

Don't be so arrogant, seriously. It is not the right way in your opinion. That doesn't mean that other people don't have other opinions.
So, what? Nothing unusual on this forum. Do you really want me to find you a similar example of someone, who is against XT?
Your view is just biased.
What do you think about the fake-Satoshi-mail? Why don't you call that a big conspiracy?
That doesn't make any sense at all. Do you mean, that the blockchain will somehow check, if you are running the "right" client. That might be your dictatorship-dream, but it is not possible.


Finally a responds from a Staff member, and then it is a meme?
Great job, you guys are doing, very professional ...

1) You're wrong, nor am I being arrogant. Something can not be buggy in my opinion, nor have I tested those patches myself (they are bad). My opinion has been formed after extensive research related to both XT and Hearn, which I unfortunately can not say for most people.
2) You asked for a example, and now I'm biased? Interesting.
3) It is fake, and thus should just be disregarded.
4) Dictator dream: Hard to accomplish? Maybe. Impossible? I doubt that.

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Way too many, yet people keep opening threads for the same discussions over and over again.

That's because there are already dozens of threads about this already. See any thread about Theymos censoring XT and so on...

ad 1) "Other people are just too stupid to understand"--> Yes, that is arrogance, like it or not.
ad 2) 3) You exactly prove my point. The fake email should be disregarded, but some newbie accounts are a conspiracy. That is a biased view.
ad 4) And again, we have hypocrisy:
Dictatorship from Hearn--> such a bad thing
Dictatorship from other devs --> Oh yes please, we need that so much.

So, can you point me to an explanation from theymos?
I haven't seen one, but I could just have missed it.

Agree with all but the last sentence.  Given the robust technical and social rebuff of the Gavinista's XT attack, I have been quite satisfied (and often delighted) watching the present situation unfold.

Particularly hilarious is the buttrage of the reddit millennials who just discovered Bitcoin is not presently built to scale, nor is it a democracy, nor will their foot stamping and strong feelings make the slightest bit of difference no matter how much they whine.

CK's meme was perfect, LOL.

XT is an altcoin, and there's nothing you can do to change that.

Try not to be such a poor sport about it, old chap.  The already unseemly self-pity is becoming nauseating.

Perhaps you'd be happier with your fellow Gavinistas over at /v/bitcoinXT?

I promise you CK won't be posting any memes at you over there.   :D

This is something that really bothers me as well - loads of hypocrisy in this debate.


Would like to see that too.

Where did you find that quote, as I can't find it? I might have gotten a little bit carried away on that one (still can't find it), so I would like to correct it.
I never said that they were a conspiracy (not that unusual here), nor is my view biased. If it was, I would say that the mail is real and satoshi is right (negative view of XT).
What Hearn is proposing is nowhere near what we have today. He's essentially saying that he would implement stuff even if a lot of people are against it. I have not see this happen with Core (yet).

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Update: Some corrections and additions.

There is so much shame in the forum it has literally became unsustainable. No one should trust bitcointalk anymore. Only a fool would.

Seriously, that quote is basically what you are saying.

Are you sure, that you never said it was an conspiracy?
Sound like a conspiracy in my book.

And sorry, if you don't see, that your view is biased, than I can't help you. There is so much bullshit going on on both sites of this debate, but you just see the bullshit on one site.

btw. speaking about wrong quotes
I just realized, you but words in my quote, I haven't written, without marking them (I guess, it was an honest mistake, but still)

I was asking if I had used the exact words :"Other people are just too stupid to understand." In case that I haven't, it is easy to misinterpret someones opinion. I did not call it exactly a conspiracy though. Well you might think that I'm biased due to me not saying similar stuff about Core. However, I'm fully aware of planned shill support from both sides.
My point actually was (I never got to mention it here due to plethora of threads) that they (developers, including Hearn and Gavin) should have never allowed themselves to get in a situation where they would be playing a chess game with the community.

It looks like, while correcting my own post I had mistakenly made an addition to yours as well. I apologize. I have fixed this.

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I just realized that we had completely drifted away from the original point of this thread! We drifted away and it has become off-topic. If you would like to discuss further I'd suggest using PM, or a different thread (share the link).

well what can you expect of a forum where :

1) Mods dont care if scammers run their schemes wide open and PROVEN scammers too
2) Trust feeback system is abused and again Mods dont care. If its not working, REMOVE IT
3) Buy and sell accts, so the naive noobs can be exposed to "reputable" member.

Quick, post another silly Adventures of Thermos cartoon.  That'll show'em!   ::)

Your already unseemly self-pity is becoming nauseating.  The sooner you Gavinistas are herded into /v/bitcoinxt to circlejerk yourselves the better.