Bitcoin Forum

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/31/business/dealbook/bitcoin-technology-piques-interest-on-wall-st.html

Good story about what I have been long stating - that the Fiat Guys are setting the stage to make a move - possibly hijaak Bitcoin tech and leave Bitcoin behind.  I also think that this is why Gavin / Mike keep talking about the "Urgency" and rush to get bigger blocks / XT.  And while I dislike the sneaky "sidecode" they introduced, I do think they got pressure to do 2 things.... A) Increase Transactions   B) Better Tracking and Control .... that the Fiat Powers really are pushing for so that they can implement a global handoff to this new technology.  And they are on a tight schedule.

It's all part of the Master Plan.   And it IS going to happen.  Right now the only question is whether it happens using the Bitcoin Blockchain, or a proprietary Fiat Created Blockchain.

I think that right now Bitcoin is weak.  BUT - in it's favor is the fact that just like Core vs XT-vs-Exchanges-vs-Users-vs-Miners can't agree seemingly on anything, and selfish egos are running wild - imagine what it will take to get all the finacial institutions of the world to pick One Coin to be THE Fiat Coin - when they are all working on their own.  PLUS Bitcoin has an established User Base, quality App and Sidechain Development Infrastructure that will be more difficult to recreate / start from scratch.   It's EASIER and FASTER for them to just build on top of the existing Bitcoin Infrastructure ad Hijaak it.

But don't be fooled - too much more nonsense from the Bitcoin Community (currently a bunch of divided yapping dogs at present - rapidly losing credibility and mos bickering selfishly over their own interests), and some entity like JP Morgan just might take advantage of some manufactured situation to roll out a mass signup of a Fiat Coin.  Manufacture a Global Financial Crisis, let someone rise up in the midst of the chaos and point to salvation of everyone's money, and have that group be supported by the big banks etc, and the entire global community would run like sheep.

That COULD be Bitcoin.  But clock's ticking, and plans are being laid for alternative Fiat Coin.

Not saying Bitcoin will die - but any dreams of it being THE big deal will be gone forever.  Bitcoin will fade into obscurity as a famous altcoin that almost was.

The Bitcoin Community isn't going to win this war in the next month, but they could win a battle.  But they could LOSE the war also. 

I am suggesting you move things along a little quicker, bringing your greatest thought and ingenuity and flexibility to solve the current impass - or ALL SIDES in the Bitcoin Community may lose.

Peace,
- d

I agree with a lot of that. I'm sure all of us want this to be resolved quickly, but a change of this scale must be thought through thoroughly, and that does take time.

I'm completely against XT's (BIP101) recording/blocking of IPs. That goes against freedom. If that part of the code is dropped, then fine. But this point may be mute since, at this time, the vast majority favors either Core or BIP100.

If a government backed, centralised, privacy-invasive crypto is launched tomorrow, most people will lap it up and not care about giving up their civil liberties.  :'(

Most people are stupid, lazy and conventional.

I just hope Bitcoin can survive, and thrive, even as it becomes an "alternative"

Fiatcoins will have the same problems than current fiat. I wouldnt worry too much about that. Also, permissioned network can't compete with permissionless network.

I'm not really sure what planet you live on, or where you have been - but have you actually met the average citizens of Planet Earth?  The masses of mindless sheep that LIKE people taking care of them and telling them what to do; that LIKE other people handling annoying things like security and private keys? 

I'd love to watch you in a public newsmedia debate faceoff on prime time with a slick politico-banker type.  You'd argue with such passion and know how about how "permissioned network can't compete with permissionless network."...... and across the world people would be staring glassy eyed at you on the screen.  Then the other guy would say, "But we've got free checking and a Debit Card with zero fees on alcohol purchases!"..... and the people would relate, and they would Cheer, and they wouldn't even know what the heck language you were speaking or what you had said, so they would at first ignore you, then eventually mock you for making them feel stupid.

And bitcoin would die, and fiat coin would soar, and the sheep would go to a football game and pop a beer bought with fiat coin, powered by a FiatCoin Debit Card.

Get the picture?

master plan....pfff... doubt it.

The world is too big, with too many players all looking out for themselves.
Yes, conspiracies exist, but not as often as some people think.

Bitcoin may be on the radar of some powerful people, but if anything,
if they feel threatened by it, their strategy would be to regulate it and marginalize it,
certainly not to compete and draw attention to it.

Gavin wants bigger blocks because they are filling up fast, not because he feels
there is going to be some conspiracy takeover coin.

Transaction volume has doubled roughly in the last year, and since the average
size of a block is now about half an MB, it stands to reason we will be completely
out of space in another year, never mind spikes, never mind the time it takes
to roll out the change.  Those are the facts, so Gavin is right the change is urgent.

The good thing is that you don't need to argue. Just wait and watch. Poeple and businesses will build more appealing stuff on the bitcoin blockchain because you don't need to ask permission. There is a reason why the internet is what it is and CompuServe and AOL private networks went bust. A better proposition simply stand on its own.

IF, and that's a big if, banks are able to hijack bitcoin and ruin it they can not un-invent cryptocurrency. People would just migrate to an altcoin. There are too many practical applications to be able to send money from person A to person B without all the fees and privacy invasion. Crypto will win, everytime.

There is of course a third option, and unfortunately the one that I think is most likely path they will choose if Core Dev doesn't get off the BIP 100 and come up with an acceptable solution, and if XT subsequently stalls (which it has).

They'll simply take the army of Zombie XT Nodes they have built and evolve into a support army of Zombie Miners.   You people really don't understand the power on the other side.  If they feel trapped by time, and Core won't evolve into something acceptable to their plans, and if they decide that independently developing consensus on a new Fiat Coin won't succeed or meet their time frames - then they will simply tap into what is an already existing vast network of supercomputers and set up some Mining Infrastructure.  PERMANENT Mining structure, because once they build it, they won't let go of that aspect.  All it takes is money, and they can piss away enough to do this from the proceeds of a good morning on the stock market - OR they could just print it :)

So the Zombie XT Nodes will be supported by Zombie Miners - that actually WILL do the work.   They'll hit the magic trigger number, XT will fork, exchanges and Fiat Banks / Powers will support it.  Mass Media will EXCLUSIVELY talk about how all the wonderful financial fiat saviors have developed a solution to not only the botcoin crisis, but the global finance crisis, and all new accounts fees are waived for the transition...... and in the general public, talk of that bitter group on the Core Fork will be with Scorn.  Akin to Terrorists threatening the orderly progression of things.  And the exisiting Miners will either go over, or die.  IF they are allowed to go over by then..... because the downside to forcing the Fiats to actually work, spend their money and time setting up their own Miners - might just make them think it would be safest and most profitable to control that aspect exclusively.

I'm surprised the Miners are so willing to stubbornly choose a path that simply hastens their demise.  I suggest - just win the battle and live to fight another day.  If you get greedy - they'll take it by force.  Give them something, hold back something.  And since you don't even know what that is yet - best to start focusing.  Let go of BIP 100.  Let go of BIP 101.  Wipe the slate and look with new eyes from new perspectives.  

Call a temporary truce to explore possibilities.

You lose freedom by giving up a little here, a little there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoghPts44Ng

Tell me of this freedom you currently have - that you don't want to give up.  That is as good a place to start as any.  List your freedoms, then decide on how to protect them.   Wipe the slate clean.  Spread out everything you have before you so that you can see it all.  Then make your decisions.

But if you do not do something quickly, then you risk that the law of inertia will determine your fate, and you will lose absolutely every illusory freedom you dreamed you had.  In this case, the law of inertia will be triggered at the very moment that "they" decide to step onto a path that either leads away from bitcoin and to a fiat coin - or to "them" throwing their full resources behind establishing a mining solution to force Xt to trigger.  Once they start, all of their energy will flow strongly and increasingly naturally in that direction.  The longer a correct path is seen as being delayed, or improbable, the greater the odds that an irreversible chain of events will be set in motion.

Gavin tried logic and patience, then tried to shake you up by launching XT, and lately has blatantly tried to throw out hints.  I am under no similar constraints.   I am speaking to you in plain english.

Global banks could leverage blockchain technology to make settlements, replace clearing houses, etc. But as long as they are subject to regulations, they have to deal in fiat.
We could have multiple blockchains becoming successful; that doesn't worry me. I still see only Bitcoin becoming a truly international currency.

The thing about Crypto currencies are this..... Anyone can create their own ShitCoin, even the banks. These BankCoins or GovCoins first need to

be accepted by the people before it will go anywhere. I think the banks are going to create their own "private" blockchain technology as they have

said, and then they are going to force it's use with the help of the governments. It's our task to educate people on the Pro's and Con's of using

Bitcoin and these other SpyCoins.  ::)

It is like Intranet vs Internet - good luck with Citycoin  :D

I think that's what Bitcoin was meant for, I don't buy into that "freedom" stuff. People have been working on it in the last years just like lab rats trapped into a cage made of ideals.

It is probably worth making a distinction between banks and counterfeiters.  Actual banks, like, doing real business and not hiding their criminal operations, have no beef with bitcoin at all.  It's just money.  Something to store, change, and to charge a fee for the service.  Credit cards, lenders, trust services, private banking, VC - -  all of it works fine (and better actually) with bitcoin.   

Those who run criminal counterfeitting operations however do have a beef with bitcoin, because they can't counterfeit it and it allows their victims to escape.  That's the real war going on here. 

AND


There is a middle road..... which is to take the best of the current system, and yet improve on it by "fixing" the supply, and minimalizing fees.  You accomplish that by making Bitcoin the actual fiat Currency.

And lets get that perfectly clear - IF Bitcoin or ANY other Coin becomes THE INTERNATIONAL CURRENCY then it will by default be THE FIAT COIN. 

Here's why.....

A) Taxes are a necessary part of running an orderly world.  The powers that be WILL protect their ability to tax (and they should).  Subsequently they will implement Rules, Regulations and Laws regarding the Currency.  That is a basic principle that is as old as civilization.  That will not be changed in a global civilized society.

B) We live in a world of terrorists and criminals; good and evil.  Technology is increasingly a tool of evil, and good will increasingly also use technology in its war against evil.  Unfortunately the line between good and evil when you are dealing with Governments, Corporations, Financial Institutions is becoming increasing blurred.  (OK... sometimes they are just plain evil)  REGARDLESS, technology is currently the new world battleground.  To think that all the established powers of the world will not use every single power at their disposal to achieve their goals "to protect the people" is to assume a childlike idealistic naivety.

What we had pre-bitcoin....

Is a world that most currency based transactions were traceable at some level if they really wanted to.  But the little guy trying to earn a living and doing "Cash Jobs" and keeping things off the books is mostly ignored.  Having CASH in your hand was still basically anonymous.  But moving HUGE amounts of Cash, and laundering it - really only is something that "criminal or terrorist or extremely greedy people" did.   And THAT is STILL the concern of governments.  And it is a valid one.

Currently Bitcoin can be used both anonymously as "Cash" - but even more importantly it can move HUGE amounts of money anonymously and quickly by the same "criminal or terrorist or extremely greedy people" crowd.

WHAT IS NEEDED is for those "People have been working on it in the last years just like lab rats trapped into a cage made of ideals" to wake up and make some moral decisions / choices....

Because it is clear that there is too much emphasis being put on protecting the privacy of larger criminal/evil element concerns.  Evil sucks - and I am not sympathetic to helping its cause.   But emphasis does need to be placed on making sure that there is some degree of anonymity / "freedom" of average citizens to be protected in basic transactions / small off book jobs etc. 

In other words - focus on keeping the flow of bitcoin from a privacy standpoint similar to that of using current fiat cash systems.  Run it through a bank / exchange and it is traceable and taxable and more accountable.  Hold it in cash in your own wallet (i.e. bitcoin wallet) and you can move it around more easily - and make these smaller transactions more difficult/costly to track.  That is basically the current system.

But the REAL FOCUS needs to be on improving the system.... lower transaction fees that are fair across the board.  Limitations on currency manipulations by having the fixed "gold standard" of cryptocurrency. 

The 2nd poster really does have it right when he says, "People have been working on it in the last years just like lab rats trapped into a cage made of ideals".  In the REAL world... choices have to be made, sacrifices offered up, etc.   Yeah, not good sometimes.   But again.... REAL world.

 Bitcoin can fail ,but digital decantrelised currencys will stay,i think 2016 will be time of new developments from that area,banksare talking about blockchain from very long time,thay can develp blockchain for transfering assets,but thay will like to keep transferring people money in his hands,thay are making to big money  by keeping money on his accounts during transfering time

It's obvious XT  is some sort of trojan horse, and it isn't, an actual one will come.
They can't destroy Bitcoin any othe way than infiltrated people in the project and turning it out for their own agenda's benefits but hopefully core devs and community are smart enough to see that coming.

Can anyone point to one single instance of a bank creating or talking about creating an actual cryptocurrency?

And I don't mean tokenising USD or using a blockchain in whatever form to make payments and settlements smoother. Those are all payment layers built to move fiat, not standalone currencies.

Citibank; Sberbank - although both are laughable as ever being able to achieve global status.
JP Morgan - never to be trusted or counted out.  They obviously have the most skin in the game, and a huge footprint, and a disgusting amount of insider support from the USA.  Only a fool bushes them off lightly.  But I don't really see it.

Bank of England and some of the European Banks seem to be the main pitchmen for the concept of a Fed Coin.  Most likely scenario is something pegged to the IMF XDR.  And from an acceptance standpoint that wouldn't be as difficult as you may think. 

And the comment "creating an actual cryptocurrency" tends to focus people on the wrong thing.  Actually creating the Coin from a technology standpoint would be nothing.  Its the acceptance / social angle that is at the heart of it.  The IMF-XDR route would be easily accepted by the global governments as they already use it.  This would just be layering a Cryptocurrency on top of the existing system.

But the game is still Bitcoins to lose.  Danged if "you" aren't trying hard to shoot yourselves in the foot though.

Bitcoin is becoming more and more popular and more people have invested their money in bitcoins and have left the big banks. I dont know about you, but if I were the big banks, i would be concerned about how this is going to affect my business

If I were the big banks, I would be scared to go to war with Bitcoin. I doubt that this will ever happen though. I doubt that the big banks are willing to go to war as they would have a lot of hate on their shoulders. Bitcoin is not at its lowest by the way, I think that it is at it's medium range at the moment. The peak was when it was $1000 and it was at its lowest when it was a couple of cents.

They just feel threatened by us.

I'm no longer offended. I just take it as a compliment.