Bitcoin Forum

It seems that there is an issue in the mindset of those using bitcoin. Shouldn't bitcoin be the default currency of bitcointalk and the various exchanges that assist people in getting into and out of bitcoin currency? People talk about the price of bitcoin, about buying bitcoin and selling bitcoin.

If bitcoin is going to be our default currency, shouldn't those conversations be phrased differently?  When you exchange bitcoin for an object (Alpaca socks?) you don't sell bitcoin for the object, you use your currency (bitcoin) to buy the object.  When you exchange bitcoin for USD, you don't sell bitcoin, you use your currency (bitcoin) to buy dollars.  Same thing for the reverse, when exchanging USD for BTC you don't buy bitcoin, you sell dollars to get more of your currency (bitcoin).

If bitcoin is our default currency, then bitcoin doesn't have a price, it is the unit that is used to determine the price of other stuff.  So instead of saying that the current price of bitcoin is $12, shouldn't we be saying that the current price of USD is 0.0833 BTC.

When an online exchange lists market prices, it seems that the ASK price should be the price (in BTC) that dollars (or whatever currency is being sold) are selling for, and the BID price should be the price (in BTC) where people are willing to buy dollars.

Perhaps it is just too early in the life of bitcoin for people to consider it the default currency, but it seems like the longer we wait to make this change, the more difficult it will be to get everyone to shift their thoughts about it.

Yes to all.

In order for that to happen the value of Bitcoin needs to be derived from actual goods instead of fiat money.

For example it is established that one pair of alcapa socks is worth 1 BTC, then we could compare that value to something like a bitcoin keychain.  The problem is that bitcoin started out being valuated in Dollars, even initally with the Pizza story.
If people instead would have used their BTC to exchange pictures they made or any other selfmade product, or service it would have turned out differntly. That premise is difficult to get away from because most Bitcoins in circulation derive their value from the value in the fiat money not the good.

We are nowhere near the volume of BTC trades to have it be a standalone currency with static prices.  If I'm selling 1 thing and my vendors that supply me with it don't take BTC, then I'm taking BTC in the context of USD.  I've never seen a static price on anything with BTC.  That's why everyone calls it a meta-currency because it's all about its value in another currency.  It'd need to be 100x more widespread before we see things priced with static BTC prices.

As long as the majority of costs related to products or services are not payed in the same currency conversion is needed to make sure you keep a stable profit and/or to avoid losses.

As long as this conversion is needed you will probably not see a change in the mind set of people.

Some players have always had problems like this.

Many many years ago in my Digitalis D'ydii Cluster game software it was standard for each planet's starport's price-list to let you choose what kind of cargo to use as unit of account in which to price all other items on the pricelist.

Back then this was justified by the fact each and every one of the trillions upon trillions upon billions upon billions of planets each had their own local currency that was just some kind of alien collectable symbol or token to folk on other planets, left behind as tip to the starport upon leaving the planet with actual cargo that hopefully some other planet might find valuable.

Open Transactions follows much the same tradition: choose an asset to "buy" or "sell", choose another asset to serve as a "currency" in that transaction in the sense of being that asset of the pair of which you are offering some variable/negotiable quantity in return for some fixed quantity of the asset inserted in the "commodity" position in that transaction.

Merely changing which asset you choose to measure all other assets in does not really change the problem since it is merely perpetuating the same tunnel-vision mindset while crossing out the label of the asset the previous tunnel-vision used and writing your own favourite asset in its place in crayon.

-MarkM-

I don't understand why the value of Bitcoin needs to be derived from goods for that to happen.  With people thinking of the value of bitcoins in terms of what their local currency can buy, we should still be able to say that 1 USD can be bought or sold for 0.0833 BTC.  We should still be able to talk in terms of using bitcoin to buy or sell other currencies.

Lets not derail this topic.  I'm not talking about static prices.  Static prices rarely occur with any currency that is in a period of hyper-inflation.  I'm asking about changing the way we talk about exchanging bitcoin for other currencies.  Buying and selling other currencies with bitcoin, rather than buying and selling bitcoin with other currencies.

The linguistic changes you are talking about are an effect of people and businesses being able to pay more of their expenses in bitcoins instead of local currency. Changing the way people talk about Bitcoin will not magically cause this to happen.

You're trying to push on a string. When Bitcoin becomes more widely accepted the way we talk about it will change.

That's because we naturally derive value from the things we are consuming most of the time.
I played DiabloIII for a while for example, there lets say a useable 1-Hand weapon is worth about 1,000,000 gold a useable chest plate about 2,500,000 and so on. The same things are also sold for paypal and credit cards on another auction house, but those prices are derived from their respective gold value not verse visa. That is because most people don't use the Real Money Auction House and prefer to trade using the Gold they collected while playing the game.

In order for that to happen (naturally) Bitcoin needs some niche market where it is used as a primary currency, just like the ingame gold currencies do.

That doesn't seem right.  When I am in a foreign country, I can't buy much of anything at all with my home currency.  Still, when I exchange my home currency for foreign currency to make purchases, I think of it in terms of buying the foreign currency that will be used for all my purchases.  When it is time to head home, I sell the leftover foreign currency to get my home currency back.  Even though nearly all of my expenses will be paid in that foreign currency, I still think and talk in terms of my home currency when talking about currency exchange.

It seems you are proving yourself wrong with this very example.

In your example, the "new" currency is DiabloIII-gold.  This currency is valued in terms of goods (weapons, chest plates, etc).  And yet still, I assume, when exchanging DiabloIII-gold with USD, you don't refer to buying dollars with DiabloIII gold, or selling dollars to get DiabloIII gold.  So even though the currency is valued in terms of goods, you still frame your discussions about currency exchange in terms of buying  and selling DiabloIII-gold for dollars rather than buying and selling dollars for DiabloIII-gold.

Clearly valuing a currency in terms of goods has no bearing on how people think about the currency exchange with other currencies.

Thought about the mind framing also: When people makes an offer here for goods or services, they should at least make as great an effort in other fora or communities. It's like the only market segment in Bitcoin is people understanding Bitcoin already, as if the biggest concern is if your customers understand Bitcoin, not if they would buy x product.

Several understands it though, and makes Bitcoin only web shops, but do they advertise them anywhere but here and Reddit/bitcoin? Think of a "Brick n' mortar" shop running a Bitcoin special week with a 20% discount on everything paied in Bitcoin, having kids spam the neighbourhood with fliers beforehand.

Is the gap still to big for every day adoptation? Does anyone who promotes Bitcoin by word of mouth, have any printed materials with easy instructions to leave with the local shop owner in their neighbourhood after you had the "B - talk". I know that I'm blaming myself as much as anyone with these statements, and that an easy point of sale system is still being worked on, but beans should be spilled less here, than everywhere else. Everyone here is a torchbearer, go light the world.

I agree with this. For common people/talk the change will happen naturally.

For professional traders it makes no difference. Right now, for example, currency traders talk of "buying" dollars, euros, yen or whatever else.

But that's not the point.
When I say: This chest-plate is worth 2.5mio gold, it is something every DiabloIII player understands, that is because every player knows how many hours he has to play the game to collect that amount.
But when I say: These alacapa socks are worth 1 BTC you immdeatly begin translating that value to Dollar.

In order to make that transition you are talking about we need first value our goods in BTC, other currencies will follow naturally.

+1  ;D that should change the mindsets pretty easy

But you are still talking about goods purchase and I'm still talking about currency exchange.

You can translate the value of the goods to dollars knowing that each dollar that you sell will get you 0.0833 BTC towards your goods purchase or you can translate the value of goods to dollars knowing that each BTC that you buy will cost you $12.  You'll get the same result either way.  Clearly using your DiabloIII-gold example, how you value the currency doesn't control how you talk about the exchange with other currencies.

You don't seem to get it.  ::)

So you want to use bitcoin to describe the value of other currencies, on purpose. I understand that.
What I and others here are trying to make you understand is that this can only come naturally.

Sure you can pretend and just do it, but that's more like a thought exercise which doesn't have much going for it. If that is what you want, by all means go right ahead.

For an individual who holds bitcoins as a store of value that thinking is correct.  

As a society which doesn't (yet) hold bitcoins as a store of value, the reference doesn't work.  Buying gold is a term that is familiar to individuals and investors even, not "selling dollars".

But gold isn't often used as a currency.  Do the Japanese engaged in currency exchange think/talk in terms of buying Yen, or do they think/talk in terms of selling dollars?  Do the British think in terms of buy of selling Pounds Sterling, or do they think/talk in terms of buying dollars?

It's entirely possible that instead of anything ever getting statically priced in BTC, people start dynamically pricing everything relative to real goods instead of relative to any currency (fiat, gold, bitcoin or anything else).  As software evolves, I may be able to set my prices relative to input costs.  I could sell widget X or service Y for "input costs + 10%" for example.  I could accept payment in anything that has a sufficiently liquid market and automatically exchange my revenue for whatever asset (or combination of assets) that I prefer to hold...be it gold, silver, USD, EUR, BTC, Google stock...or pirate shares ;)

Language matters.  It influences the way people think and how they act.

Yes and guess what it evolves and it's a natural process.

fact is that if you want to pay things with BTC sometimes u have to transfer to another currency for now, my bank isn,t accepting BTC yet to pay my morgage for example   ;)

Obviously, but what does this have to do with the way we describe the currency exchange.  You can either buy your local currency with bitcoin to pay your mortgage, or you can sell bitcoin for your local currency.  Either way you end up with the same thing.

It evolves because people choose to use it a certain way.  People don't use the phrases pro-choice or pro-life accidentally, they choose to use those phrases because they influence they way people think about the issue.

On a somewhat related note, I wonder if it would be possible to peg bitcoin against gold rather than USD.  Rather than saying "I'll pay you $50 worth of bitcoin", you can say, "I'll pay you 0.03 oz of gold worth of bitcoin."

www.coinabul?

Just to illustrate how weird the tunnel-vision is, think about the weirdness you might see at a mall...

You feel like some ice-cream, so naturally enough you go to the ice-cream store.

Realising you are running out of cash, you are gratified to see there is a dollar store...

Oops! WTF? Waddayamean you don't sell dollars?!?! This IS a dollar store isn't it?

If you thiink Monty Python's cheese shop skit was funny wait till you imagine how this one would go...

-MarkM-

P.S. Yes, I am implying people's excuses against the O.P. are silly/funny.

Those people are scum. It basically orwellian new-speak.

New-speak? Not really. No.

The point is that language matters, and that it is influenced by the word choices that people make.

With new-speak, a government attempts to use this influence to eliminate words that involve concepts contrary to the governments desires. If there are no words to describe concepts the government disapproves of, then people can't share or discuss those concepts.  On the other hand, creation of words and phrases can also be used to encourage thoughts that are contrary to a governments desires.

Regardless, the point still stands.  People are influenced by the words they use and hear.

To OP: yes.

Just start using btc as your base currency. Quote all prices in btc. Eventually it will catch on.

The last trade I made was at 80 mBTC per dollar.
The last trade I made was at 0.080 btc/usd.

A share of SatoshiDice costs 0.0034 btc.

Totally agree with the OP !

I try to change my tought / mindset / writings because I perceive BTC as a real currency (even far more powerfull than fiat). 

We have been so much conditionned all life long that fiat are the only valuable currency, it requires an effort to reprogram ourselves !

was my 2 satoshi !

It's a start, but you'd need charts and such.  An api that allows third party websites to gain real time data on the exchange rate.  Also a flat bitcoin per ounce rate would be nice.

When I've messed around in FOREX, I've used the phrases "buy euros" or "sell dollars" before.  I think it's appropriate when you're exchanging currency for currency to use that terminology.  Also, people relate to USD extremely well, and it's much easier to say "twelve dollars per bitcoin" aloud than "point oh eight bitcoins per dollar".  You could say "8 bitcents per dollar," but most people don't even know what BTC is, let alone what a "bitcent" is.  My CPA is a good example - his first question was "how much are these units worth in dollars." People relate well to that because it's their default currency.  I get what the OP is saying, but I see no reason to switch my brain around when typing on this forum versus speaking to various people in real life.

Another poster mentioned that since there's not really a whole economy denominated in bitcoin, it's hard to figure out how much labor equates to 0.0833 BTC.  We all know what we make in our national currency, and subconsciously (or consciously) we determine how expensive something is by comparing its price to how much we make.  If I know my paycheck is going to be $1000, and I know bitcoin is $12, it's simple division.  If I know dollars are 0.08 BTC each, it's harder to think about quickly (at least for me, YMMV).

Multiplying by powers of ten (such as 1000) is harder than dividing by 12?

I suspect you picked a poor example, unless your kind of math savant syndrome is just weird. :)

I knew there was a Tonalist among us, but now it turns out there is a dodecalist too now? :D

-MarkM-

OK, lets take that example.  You received 1000 usd, that is 1000 / 12 usd/btc, which is, umm, where's my calculator? Starting over: You received 1000 usd, that is 1000 * .08 btc/usd, which is 80 btc as your income, did that in my head.

Yeah perhaps it was a poor example.  On second look, it's not too bad. 

i would never use the term:
i will sell my dollars for an alpaca pair of socks.. due to dollars not having physical value like gold does..

i would however say i will sell you my gold for the alpaca socks. so i think by using the term use bitcoin instead of the word 'selling' as the OP suggests.. goes against the idea of bitcoin.

which is, having something of actual value for trading for goods and services. plus by classing it as a item of value.. you can treat it as an assett instead of a different kind of cash. meaning tax laws are different.

i will treat bitcoin like a lump of gold. something i own, that i can sell for other items.. and its a asset not an income, when it comes to tax purposes