Bitcoin Forum

o how the mighty have fallen.



seriously. wtf happened?

they went from over 50% to like 2% of the hash rate.

What happened? Simple, a market regulated strictly by it's consumers i.e. a free market and the competition that comes with it. That's what.

Simple, my rig is down  :D

Deepbit has a hell of a lot more than 2%. They have about 3.5TH/s or 15% of the network.

They've been at 3.5TH/s for a while now. The market grew, but they didn't.

They are busy on another project at the moment.  It will be interesting to see what Deepbit does with the mining site when the other endeavor comes to fruition.

13%

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/28686048/deepbit121013.png

Blockchain.info is almost always wrong on Deepbit.  Their hashrate distribution graph is not reliable at all when looking at Deepbit's portion.

People finally wised up and realized there were smaller fee pools out there =P....
oh wait, people wiser?... so much for that theory..

Quoted for emphasis.

Blockchain.info data is wrong on deepbit, so it either skips that work, credits other categories with deepbit's work (because deepbit's blocks are first seen by blockchain.info from other sources).

Yes blockchain has always had trouble with Deepbit. There are several other mining pools hosted in germany which makes their blocks difficult to tag correctly + they don't tag their coinbase. I created a script to parse https://deepbit.net/stats but our server ip was blocked.

nice little Bitcoin world! such a fresh mind here! gorgeous!  ::)

What happened to Deepbit you asked? As difficulty went up, rewards went down, and miners became discontent with how much they were making at Deepbit, and realized they could be making more at just about any other pool by comparison. PPS fee of 10% is straight fucked, yo.


Oh, and that graph only measures the number of blocks awarded to a particular pool or entity, not their actual hashrate. If Deepbit were mining at 100TH/s and found say, 3 blocks in an hour, and my imaginary pool is mining at 20TH/s and found say, 4 blocks in an hour, that graph would show my pool as bigger despite it actually being 1/5th the size. Make sense?

I've always been confused on how deepbit was so large to begin with. People have been asking about it for a long time, a logical answer is never given. I'm guessing the pool will disappear unless they lower fees. 

It's still pretty close: 50BTC at 18.85% of the network blocks, Deepbit at 16.62% of the network hashrate, and BTCGuild at 14.61% of the network hashrate.

More details at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=77000.msg1270918#msg1270918 and also at http://organofcorti.blogspot.com

I think one of the reasons people are leaving Deepbit since is that other people are leaving. People just do what other people are doing. They mined at Deepbit because everyone else did. Now they're leaving it because everyone else is. Well, that and the recent DDoS.

Also increased variance.  Deepbit's proportional variance used to be extremely low.  As the network hash rate grew and Deepbit didn't, miners have been able to notice an increased variance with each difficulty increase.  It's not that miners see other people leaving (directly), it's that Deepbit's speed remaining mostly stationary while the network has increased significantly is causing a large rise in how much their payouts under proportional vary.  And as more people leave, the effect of hoppers is more pronounced, which hurts regular Deepbit miners even more than it used to.

That's quite a good point - I hadn't thought of that but of course that's exactly what prop miners at Deepbit will notice.


Well, I expected that too, but not this week for some reason.

2 major things. The non English speaking miners (mainly Russia and China) and inertia. The time deepbit took off was when bitcoin mining exploded in popularity and all the other pools were struggling under the load. Tycho took a chance and kept throwing lots of hardware at the problem which was an investment on his part that paid off, and it was the only reliable pool at the time. That reliability has kept a lot of users there since then, even though most other pools have since caught up and offer lower fees.

It is the least modernised pool out there despite being the largest for almost 18 months and having changed very little in design or features and having high fees since then in spite of the bitcoin mining scene changing substantially in that time.

All that will change dramatically with ASICs because throwing lots of pool hardware at the server end (which was the deepbit way) is just not going to cut it when we're talking about things being 50x the current demand. Even if the server will be able to take it, miners' internet connections will not be able to take it.

Either deepbit will change its business plan to revolve around being an ASIC provider and slowly but surely shut down their mining pool, or they'll totally revamp their pool to support a new mining protocol (hopefully stratum) and start again to support their hardware.

I didn't see this post until ckolivas quoted, so here's your answer, Beans:

from http://organofcorti.blogspot.com :
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-l2OaS1ShzU8/UHo9-4mmkRI/AAAAAAAACms/WKDWN6tqUlI/s1600/weekly.pc.network.2012-10-14.png

They're at ~3.5TH/s and from my own observations probably being hopped by about 400Gh/s.

It's a pity for me personally - deepbit being healthy massively increases my profitability  :D

Deepbit has indeed been decreasing in market share.  They're now at 15% of the total mining power.

Allow me to spam my site again: http://blockorigin.pfoe.be/top.php

This data is much more accurate then the info on blockchain, and as my data always calculates in real time over the last 2 weeks, you get low variance numbers.

The variance based on blocks/time period isn't that low. Atm, for Deepbit, you list 309 blocks and 50btc 378 blocks. The 95% confidence interval for Deepbit's hashrate will be +/- 11% and for 50btc it will be +/- 10%. Not very large, but not negligible either. Your site provides a great estimate though.

The only way to get an accurate estimate of hashrate for a given period is to add up all the hashes and divide by the total time in seconds - you have to rely on the pool's website providing accurate data to do that.

people finally understood deepbit is a rip-off. hard but true ;)

blockchain has reported multiple triplemining and btc50 blocks as 'deepbit' blocks when it records my node as relaying them first (5.9.24.81).  seems as if I got the 'deepbit' tag on myself.

most of the deepbit blocks will be relayed by 82.130.102.160, as it's my understanding that deepbit blocks the blockchain IPs

Blockchain is too often wrong...

My method is not perfect, that's true.  However, people use blockchain's graphs to look at pool shares, which is a) often incorrect by attributing blocks to the wrong pool and b) calculated over only a few days..  That makes it completly unreliable...

If you meant that the variance would be lower than blockchain's because it's based on a longer time period, then I agree. It's much better to use your table than blockchain's pie chart. But it's even more accurate to calculate data based on total hashes / seconds as reported by the website - as I do on the chart I linked to on the last page.

I wouldn't call using the most reliable pool, which one can use unattended with complete confidence, a "rip-off".  I pay higher fees/contributions at the other pools I use.  And I don't, particularly, have a problem with hoppers.  If I did have a problem with hoppers I would hop myself to offset the loss, which anyone can do if they want to put forth the time and effort.  0 fee pools are a rip-off if you ask me.  You just can't get something for nothing, no way to get around that fact, learn it, live it, know it!
Sam

I just got sick of it and moved to something without fees.

totaly wrong, this is OSS. If you dont understand the basics, just dont even try to argue  ;)

os2sam can't be wrong unless you clearly define "rip off".I can think of many values of "rip off" for which os2sam would be correct and you would not.

Please define "rip off" in terms that can be tested.

PPS:
#DEFINE rip-off (ACTUALWORK/100)*90

Prop:
#DEFINE rip-off (ACTUALWORK/100)*97

this was fine in the start due to no other pools (expect sluh's) were able to compete with deepbit, but now the situation is different.
its like selling a 10 year old car still for the same prices as you bought it -> rip-off.
so to clarify, nowadays deepbit is a rip-off.

Not even to talk about this from us2sam
"I pay higher fees/contributions at the other pools I use."
all i have to say to that is total retardness, sry if this sound harsh but its  a fact.
and for the point, 0 fee pools are rip-off. there are scampools (yes 0 fee pools, 100+% PPS pools, etc) but you setting a fee is forcing ppl. as example take a look at EMC, 0% fee per default but you can donate on your own, most dont but thats because they are selfish. Another example would be ArsBitcoin (which failed due to bad luck and developer having no time to work on his pool), 1% fee per default but you can set it to 0% if you want.

Mining at a hyped pool dosnt mean its worth it. This discussion would lead to marketing and there isnt a good idea to discus. Or are you one of the guys just buying a new iPhone because everyone else has it, or because i has the Apple Logo on it? I bet so...

deepbit should lower its fees in order to get more hash power :)
it isn't 100% ddos proof thus the continuing 3% fee is too much now days!

Can you give me your rip off limits for DGM and PPLNS too? I'm trying to decide if you're one of those miners who want something for nothing.

10% fee PPS is unnaceptable, max 5% should be it.
3% fee for Prop is unnaceptable too, 3% DGM would be the max too. But DGM is totally different from Prop!

If i would want a 0% fee pool i continue at EMC and set the donation to 0%, but no my donation isnt at 0%!

Who mines PPS at Deepbit anymore?


That is in line with most other fee based pools.


Not a good analogy, it would clearly depend on the car.  There are cars that sell many times what they cost new.


Why?  What's wrong with supporting a quality pool so that it can stay in business?  Some people want pools to go away, is that why you hold this point of view?


How does a pool force a person to pay a fee?  A person has a choice where they mine, a pool cannot force anyone to mine there, thus pay a fee.


I shouldn't have made a blanket statement about 0 fee pools.  I'm not all are a "rip-Off".


Or maybe it wasn't feasible at that fee structure?


The only I hype I ever hear about Deepbit is FUD.  I have never seen/read/heard [Tycho] market his pool.  People use it because they have a good experience with it.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.



The only reason I have an iPhone (stupid name) is because my employer requires me to have it.  If I had my choice I would still be using my Motorola StarTac flip phone.

We all have the freedom of choice, you are trying to restrict my freedom, I won't stand for it.  You make your choices for your reasons, fine I respect that.  Respect my freedom to make my choices!
Sam

Fine, start your own pool and set your own fee structure.  Put your money where your mouth is.


DGM is virtually unverifiable my the average miner.  I would never use it DGM unless I trusted the pool without reservation.


So in the end we end up agreeing.  You choose what pool you support and I choose the pool(s) I support.  I'm not irritated with your choice.

Why are you irritated with me exercising my freedom?
Sam

Are you saying that it's possible to underpay miners on DGM unless you trust the pool? It would be nice if there was a simple to follow accounting method for miners using DGM, true, but as most DGM tune for variance reduction a month's mining should tell if you're earning PPS or not.

NO! I am not saying that.  I am saying "I" don't know how to verify it.

That being said I am using a DGM pool that I trust without reservation and am very happy with it.

I am NOT trying to start DGM FUD.
Sam

Hello

Let's speak about p2pool. No fees, you also receive transaction fees, it's the most reliable pool, it's totally safe and it is never down.

 ;)

marketing infested ppls dont understand OSS :S

I understand Open Source Software just fine.  You have the WRONG impression of what the Free part of that equation means.  It does NOT refer to monetary value, it refers to the FREEDOM to modify the software to your needs.
Sam

read my other post with the #DEFINE

to make it short, high fee is ok for a small pool for private income and server costs and co.
atlough deepbit isnt little, hes earning money like shit.

And what is wrong with making money?

And where is your proof that he is making money like s__t or not?

And what business is it of yours how much, if any, profit any pool is making?

And what does running a business have to do with Open Source Software??

And I guess I missed the part where you were elected to be the pool fee police :)
Sam

nothing
proof = basic math based (fees and produced blocks)
none
nothing

a good note, taking offtopic stuff and merging it creates bullshit, as you have seen!
if you dont know what a rip-off is then im sry 4 u, but fact is: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripoff)
this matches to deepbit according to the stats (fees, blocks produced, hashing speed) and therefor this just got proven it really is a rip-off.
so by trying to argue a way around the main thing, u just helped me proving it.

ty and have a nice day :P

PS: you take it way to serious, if you cant life with harsh/hard things its not my problem.

Glad to see we agree, finally, about something anyway. :)
Sam

i never said we dont ;)
as stated before, ripoff just means being overcharged, which fits for deepbit. all i said is that deepbit is a ripoff, not a scam or w/e ;)

Honestly, for me, the "nail in the coffin" against DeepBit was about the time SatoshiDice started up, and it brought to light that Deepbit was refusing to include both '0% fee' transactions, and transactions below a certain transaction fee threshold.

At the time, they were a large percentage of the network, and their refusal to process transactions created, in some cases, 12+hour delays to get normal (paid) transactions confirmed.

I posted my opinion, deepbit responded, and I don't mine there any more.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3889.msg949717#msg949717

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=86129.msg985972#msg985972

and just another proof that deepbit is a ripoff ;) hes just greedy as shit thats all

The real problem was the transaction threshold Deepbit used was not published.  The default fees generated by bitcoin did not meet the hidden criteria.  Sure, Bitcoin is all about free market, anybody can set their fee requirements.  But you'd expect that in that situation, those requirements would be published somewhere.  It's pretty messed up when (at the time) ~25% of the network was not processing transactions that included the default fees.

just as i said, ripoff.
i never liked deepbit as its too greedy design, well their servers are stable and co, but this dosnt mean it has to be shady and greedy :S

No, the nail was 50btc.com pool and its killer feature: auto top-up your mobile phone account with earned coins.

It's really depressing how ignorant people are about economics.  Without a chance of reward there will be no innovation.

Nice charts organofcorti !

After reading all this, including links to other post, Im pretty glad that I've never mined on deepbit !  I've never mined there, for the simple fact that this is the biggest pool.. Never take time to look at fees or other criteria, just dont want to mine on the biggest, 51% blah blah..   I also learned about blockchain no as accurate as I tought, thanks to you all !

I mine on Slush's pool since he started the pool..  Except some normal prob, that no pool can't claim they had not, I've always been really happy to mine on Slush !  Real good guy, I trust him and like the pool !

Cya all !  And thanks for all the interesting info again :D

say w/e u like, fact is that deepbit is a ripoff :P

Perhaps you got in before I completed the edit. The full quote is:


So you see I'm providing you with at least some sort of method to assess results. It would be a bit of a pain though, and I can understand you not wanting to use a DGM based pool if you can't do your own share/reward accounting.

This isn't a fault of the DGM, rather an indication that some sort of simple verification method is required. TBH, I can't think of a simple way to do it either.

Actually our fee policy IS published and even quoted in the forum links quoted by you.