Bitcoin Forum

Seems BTC is still just digits of electricity.  Now if the new currency is gold, would not BTC collapse as we don't need BTC anymore.  The only value would be ease of transactions.

Bitcoin doesn't rely on USD,

If USD collapsed I'm sure my bitcoin balance would be the least of my worries.

The case for bitcoins would be a bit weaker, but it'd still be pretty strong. First, other countries would still have crappy currencies. Second, Bitcoins can be cheaply and instantly transported around the world without having to ask anyone for permission.

Not complete -- The decentralization is of utmost importance, because it prevents central control by any authority that would wish to corrupt it.  The usual argument I hear against this point is, "What if someone accumulates => 51% of hashing power?  or What if someone buys out the network? or ... accumulates most of the BTC?"  None of those arguments hold any soundness; the concept of decentralized cryptocurrency has been formally proven possible in practice and some other instantiation would replace Bitcoin in this case.
Another important fundamental concept of Bitcoin and the cryptocurrency concept in general is the proof of work done by the hashing algorithm, which prevents counterfeiting and more-than-once spending of units.

Internet transactions all over the world. Thats not "only"...
How will you send your friend a real piece of gold or shop on Amazon with gold?
Would you rather go around carrying gold in your pockets or Bitcoins that only you can access?

Bitcoin are:

...Sending value all over the world 24/7. Thats never out of fashion.
...No chargebacks. Its allways useful.
...Is being in total control of your own digital currency, being in total control of your own things will never be out of fashion.
...Privacy, privacy is allways useful and valued, its not a trend.
...Cheap transactions, cheap transactions is not a trend it will allways be better than expensive transactions.

Bitcoin is freedom, freedom will never be out of fashion.
Bitcoin and or any other cryptocurrency is here to stay.

The currency would very unlikely be gold. That has high transaction and storage cost and such. You can't just mail your taxes to the government in gold. It might be some currency backed by gold, but that carries 3rd party risk, which bitcoin doesn't.

Bitcoin is like gold (scarce, no third-party risk, fungible, divisible, etc...), except the transaction and storage cost are way lower (even lower than with fiat currencies).

Bitcoin is "liquid digital gold".

And no, it's not tangible, because liquid gold is just too hot!

This.


And this.

It's all about perception.

history is littered full of currency crisis. the average age of a currency is 30-40 years. people always resort to whatever is stable at the time of collapse.
will bitcoin be stable?

Since stability of a currency derives from the currency's properties, and Bitcoin is non-inflationary and non-centrally-controllable, I would put some solid money on the hypothesis that Bitcoin will be more stable than other currencies.

"The 'bathroom box' door says: While you're shitting, F E D is printing more money.  "

How many years USD paper have before collapsing? 3? 4?
The prices are growing up there in US, right?  Gas, Hamburguer etc
Or I'm wrong? So the USD 'value' is decreasing.

If bitcoin price continues to follow USD in this ~$10 wall, the bitcoin price will decrease in the next years following USD...


The  FED "Operation Twist" is a BIG trap.

When inflation happens you get a rise in the amount of money you have and things will seem better for a little while but then when you look at things like gold and silver you'll realise you're completely fucked, it's happening with the UK now, I see the conservatives boasting about how much they're going to get the deficit down but I still see debt and I still see lots and lots of printing. Just wait until the prices start rising again and it will be like 2008 except worse.

The only question is how long they'll be able to keep it up and how long the rest of the world is going to go along with it.

In Brazil, the salary does not follow the real(and $Real) inflation in the past 20 years. So you need to work more and more (overtime) to buy the same things .
You acquisition power is going to the hole.

The country is growing up only by the credit and debit.
To buy a car/house/motorcycle/mountain bike/blender/steamer/pan you need credit card to parcel.
The house prices soared, something like 300%+ due to gov credit in 4 years.
Everyone is smiling.

But inflation/taxes is eating us alive and no one is seeing.

What if USD collapses and they issue new currency?

The bitcoin forum rejoices and points the all knowing finger and says.......See? I guess you should listened to us afterall  ;D. Then its, wanna buy some of our "cash" for gold from your fort knox building haha oh go on, you know you want to america.

People will start buying up the old bills for shits and giggles liike theyre doing with the trillion dollar bills, novelty effect.

Doomsday rolls around and the nutjobs who all have hoarded everything will race to mine the last of the coins and spend them on the new post apocalyptic silk road looking for plutonium 239 to power their rigs for mining alternate coins  ::)

In reality?

Probs a week or two of severe riots because the average joe is a moron and will think that he has to loot the bejesus out of his neighborhood because there is "no more money".

Currency usually fails around the half century mark if it is going that way. Dont quote me on this though as im not sure where im remembering this info from. Maybe it an old fiat documentary or ron paul video from youtube??

This makes me sad to see that even with such high inflation, people do not wake up. Shouldn't south-american people at some point figure it out?

US won't go back to gold.  Not enough and it has many other issues that would limit the US from expanding it economy.  Digital currency could replace current forms and we should remember history, in the early 1900 gold was illegal to own and you were to trade it in for paper currency notes.  What would stop the US from developing their own digital currency that they make with their equipment and then pass a law calling all other digital currency illegal to own and or trade in?

Nothing.  What would prohibit the US from reintroducing slavery?  Or making ownership of all foreign products punishable by public stoning?  Or requiring a $20M license to have more than 1 child?  Or sterilizing criminals? etc.  You either trust your govt or you don't.   You resist tyrrany by one of the "boxes" (soap box -> ballot box -> jury box -> ammo box).  There is no other option.  

This applies to all governments on all issues.  I mean governments are "magical" they are simply a set of rules agreed to by the people.  It all comes down to people.  People can do bad things therefore governments can do bad things.   When someone says the government will arrest you they really mean people working for the government will arrest you.  When people say the government engaged in genocide they really mean people engaged in genocide while the government wasn't able or wasn't willing to stop them.

However I would point out things like the SR show the limits of the governments ability to enforce its will.  Many people refused to participate in the forced sale of gold in the 1900s.  Many today would refuse to participate in the prohibition of virtual currencies.  Outlawing napster didn't make p2p go away.  Outlawing pgp (yes our govt tried to outlaw pgp) didn't make encryption go away.  You can't outlaw ideas.

The US could pay off its debt tomorrow.  Simply hyperinflate the dollar 10,000% and that national debt which is 100% of GDP becomes 1% of GDP.   No secret currency is needed.  If the USD maintained purchasing power, and the government lived within it means BTC represents no risk to USD.  If the USD2.0 doesn't mantain purchasing power and the US gov2.0 doesn't live within its means then history will simply repeat itself.

If the US doesn't repay its debt (and it won't) in a manner which makes creditors whole (i.e. avoiding hyperinflation) then the US will be blamed regardless of how/why.   We are talking the court of public opinion here.     The US govt is a sovereign there is no legal remedy if they simply don't pay it back but it won't be without consequence.

South American people are extremely suspicious of their governments.  They know that every politician is in on it to steal by default.  But the idea of government?  It's as South American as apple pieexecutions and kidnapping.

Source: where do you think I'm from?  :-)

I'm more curious what would happen to debts.  Would laws around a new currency also incorporate a conversion of some sort to allow for debts to be converted?  Would I still have a mortgage on my home?  How would the value of my home be determined, and how would the amount of the new mortgage be determined?  What happens if my paycheck in the new currency drops relative to my mortgage payment in the new currency?

Moreover, if the point of issuing a new currency is to eliminate governmental debt, how could the government justify relieving themselves of their own debt while requiring the debts of the common people to be enforced?  Especially when common people are partial holders of the debt the government defaults on?

That being the case, would the people simply demand a revocation of their current debts owed to various banking institutions?  Would the banks themselves be shut down and go bankrupt in favor of the people?

It could be the start of a very interesting revolution and redistribution of asset-held wealth across the country.

Your idea of interesting and my idea of interesting must be two different things.   The redistribution confiscation of assets is theft.  Putting it under the guise of a revolution doesn't white wash it of the immorality that boils down to taking things that don't belong to you.

Well said.

I completely agree with you, and I wasn't trying to say that said redistribution would be fair or moral.

What is interesting to me is the dilemma that such a situation would pose.

What dilemma would that be?

I believe the word you are looking for is Jubilee.

I would have used "riot," but that works too. For those interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_2000

If you just convert old currency to new currency "1:1" so to say, you gain nothing and everything is as rotten as before, you still have a debt crisis on hand.

If you "wipe out" the old currency you also wipe out all the debt (because FIAT equals debt) and effectively steal from the people owning the debt.

Dilemma: how to introduce a new currency in a fair way?

Exactly this.

What if this kind of talk draws negative attention?

I like to think of BTC as a hobby, a hobby that generates USD.  You can't have one without the other; so to speak.  I think that BTC will never surpass USD nor will it become a viable electronic "currency".  It's just a fun project that pays you back. 

That being said, I've seen some stupid and dangerous stuff including bad BTC deals and hazardous rig set ups.  I'm going to try and keep my head above water with all the help I can get.

A couple of notes to this. If you think of bitcoin as nothing but something that generates USD, ask yourself this, how can it generate USD unless it has some value of its own? People are not usually in the habit of parting with wealth in exchange for nothing are they?

A second point is that the value of all currency is determiend to a greater or less extent by the faith/belief that resides in it. You believe that your USD will be redeemable for goods and services, hence you value it. If you don't believe on some level in bitcoin as having value, or actively disbelieve in it, you destroy its' value. Counter-productive.

A hobby?!? Just a fun project?!? Well, to each man his own, I guess...

Cheesy as this may sound, but I think of Bitcoin (or cryptocurrency in general) as potentially freeing the people from the suppression they're suffering from and make the world a better place. Why do we have to work for 40 hours per week (in case we have a job) or live in less than optimal conditions (in case we don't have a job and maybe also in case we do). Why do we have to exploit and destroy mother nature and her resources and eradicate other lifeforms? We're clearly not living up to our potential in this regard.

Now one might not believe there is a connection between the type of money we use to the prosperity and respectfulness we live in. I do: I think our economy can be run much more efficiently with sound money.

Much can be said about how to build a potentially better society and I don't want to spoil any efforts, but the single most effective measure is the use of sound money.

Desirable things like a smaller state, more efficient and modest natural resource usage and even a higher level of happiness will all follow from the use of sound money.

That's why I put so much energy into bitcoin and am so excited about it, not because it's a hobby that generates a little bit of colored paper currency.

Draw negative attention? Well FUCK YEAH, bring it on baby, this is a currency war and I'm fighting!

+1 brother

About as likely as anything else he's suggested.