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Title: Form 1099-K for 2011 Post by: TTBit on September 20, 2010, 10:58:13 AM Starting in 2011, paypal will start reporting to the IRS if you gross more than $20,000 in a calendar year, or if you do more than 200 transactions.
Quote Starting in 2011, therefore, sellers will be expected to report gross payments via online or credit card payments that coincide with reported 1099-K amounts, then to make adjustments to account for expenses and cash equivalents, fees, chargebacks, refunds, and so on. Quote As a practical matter, if you're an eBay seller, this will effect you unless your gross sales are under $20,000 for the year or you receive fewer than 200 transactions. Reporting for small sellers at this level is not required. Full article: http://ebay.about.com/od/sellingeffectivel1/a/_sbe_tax1099k.htm Sellers on e-bay who want to do more than 200 transactions in a year might be looking for a new payment mechanism. I'm not suggesting this is to avoid paying taxes, but rather to avoid government regulation. I suggest buy/generate coins now, and buy shares in biddingpond.com ;) Title: Re: Form 1099-K for 2011 Post by: fresno on September 20, 2010, 04:50:30 PM Payments, cash, cash equivalents, credit, fees, refunds, money, currency, dollars, coins... NOW does everyone see what happens when you throw these loaded terms around?
The 1099 is just the first of the reports that Bitcoiners will need to fill out for being so foolish. Red? Creighto? You guys still around to take responsibility? Title: Re: Form 1099-K for 2011 Post by: FreeMoney on September 20, 2010, 04:58:23 PM Yeah, PayPal is doing this because of Red.
Title: Re: Form 1099-K for 2011 Post by: redengin on September 20, 2010, 08:38:55 PM From now on we will refer to it as "the unit formerly known as bitcoin" and use a non-reproducible symbol, that ought to keep those governments in check!
Title: Re: Form 1099-K for 2011 Post by: em3rgentOrdr on September 20, 2010, 09:16:54 PM Was just reading this article today:
States working harder to collect online sales taxes - With budgets in crisis, enforcement efforts gather steam (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39159604/ns/business-personal_finance/) Oh well. More reason to promote bitcoin... Title: Re: Form 1099-K for 2011 Post by: MoonShadow on September 21, 2010, 12:41:29 AM Payments, cash, cash equivalents, credit, fees, refunds, money, currency, dollars, coins... NOW does everyone see what happens when you throw these loaded terms around? The 1099 is just the first of the reports that Bitcoiners will need to fill out for being so foolish. Red? Creighto? You guys still around to take responsibility? Take responsibility for what? Calling something what it is? Regardless, a 1099 would still be required, even when a commodity is being used for said trade. The IRS expects you to report any kind of transaction wherein the trade value, as measured in US currency on the open market, would exceed their arbitrary numbers. It doesn't matter if you are actually trading in US currency, another currency, or a commodity. Not to say that it isn't easier to successfully avoid filing a 1099 if no form of currency is (publicly) traded, but that doesn't apply to Bitcoin anyway. All transactions are public, it's just difficult for anyone to ever be certain what any one person actually has traded. If two tradesmen agreed to trade a new toilet on the electricians house for a new deck light at the plumbers house, they still haven't avoided a taxable event, even though they both might honestly believe that the government has no legitimate say in the matter. Title: Re: Form 1099-K for 2011 Post by: Anonymous on September 21, 2010, 03:21:26 AM Payments, cash, cash equivalents, credit, fees, refunds, money, currency, dollars, coins... NOW does everyone see what happens when you throw these loaded terms around? The 1099 is just the first of the reports that Bitcoiners will need to fill out for being so foolish. Red? Creighto? You guys still around to take responsibility? Take responsibility for what? Calling something what it is? Regardless, a 1099 would still be required, even when a commodity is being used for said trade. The IRS expects you to report any kind of transaction wherein the trade value, as measured in US currency on the open market, would exceed their arbitrary numbers. It doesn't matter if you are actually trading in US currency, another currency, or a commodity. Not to say that it isn't easier to successfully avoid filing a 1099 if no form of currency is (publicly) traded, but that doesn't apply to Bitcoin anyway. All transactions are public, it's just difficult for anyone to ever be certain what any one person actually has traded. If two tradesmen agreed to trade a new toilet on the electricians house for a new deck light at the plumbers house, they still haven't avoided a taxable event, even though they both might honestly believe that the government has no legitimate say in the matter. I think the irs made some kind of ruling about barter that means tax is paid on the profit from a transfer of value, which bitcoin would fall into. Its all besides the point considering the fact the irs collects tax regardless of anything written in the constitution ie they will do whatever they want to. Title: Re: Form 1099-K for 2011 Post by: FreeMoney on September 21, 2010, 03:39:29 AM I think the irs made some kind of ruling about barter that means tax is paid on the profit from a transfer of value, which bitcoin would fall into. Its all besides the point considering the fact the irs collects tax regardless of anything written in the constitution ie they will do whatever they want to. Full agree that the IRS will do whatever. But there are many things they could technically tax that they won't because it isn't feasible or it would be bad PR. If my neighbors and I watch each others kids with a barter understanding for an average of 6 hours a week for 3 decades then you've got 9000 unreported hours, that's $180k easily. But they will never try to collect I can practically guarantee it. Most people don't even have enough money to pay tax on all trades they make and they don't even think about it. Maybe Fresno can give us a break for a while and go yell at people for all the barter income tax they owe. Someone needs to make sure they never call it work after all. Title: Re: Form 1099-K for 2011 Post by: fresno on September 21, 2010, 04:02:57 AM Payments, cash, cash equivalents, credit, fees, refunds, money, currency, dollars, coins... NOW does everyone see what happens when you throw these loaded terms around? The 1099 is just the first of the reports that Bitcoiners will need to fill out for being so foolish. Red? Creighto? You guys still around to take responsibility? Take responsibility for what? Calling something what it is? Regardless, a 1099 would still be required, even when a commodity is being used for said trade. The IRS expects you to report any kind of transaction wherein the trade value, as measured in US currency on the open market, would exceed their arbitrary numbers. It doesn't matter if you are actually trading in US currency, another currency, or a commodity. Not to say that it isn't easier to successfully avoid filing a 1099 if no form of currency is (publicly) traded, but that doesn't apply to Bitcoin anyway. All transactions are public, it's just difficult for anyone to ever be certain what any one person actually has traded. If two tradesmen agreed to trade a new toilet on the electricians house for a new deck light at the plumbers house, they still haven't avoided a taxable event, even though they both might honestly believe that the government has no legitimate say in the matter. No, creighto, whatever you just said. Please restrict your 1099 and other reporting to your own personal affairs. I'm calling for you to take responsibility for your disruption of the threads calling for an assessment of Bitcoin's legal standing. This is something that needs to be done, and is not helped by the invocation of various "everybody knows" laws at every turn. Inappropriate legal terms have been thrown about casually in reference to Bitcoin, and these may be prejudicial to Bitcoin's survival. They need to be addressed and eliminated positively, and directly. Bitcoin can be structured so that it is not a currency, is not taxable, and is not reportable. This means no 1099s or other forms, IF we do this correctly. Title: Re: Form 1099-K for 2011 Post by: fresno on September 21, 2010, 04:10:43 AM I think the irs made some kind of ruling about barter that means tax is paid on the profit from a transfer of value, which bitcoin would fall into. Its all besides the point considering the fact the irs collects tax regardless of anything written in the constitution ie they will do whatever they want to. Full agree that the IRS will do whatever. But there are many things they could technically tax that they won't because it isn't feasible or it would be bad PR. If my neighbors and I watch each others kids with a barter understanding for an average of 6 hours a week for 3 decades then you've got 9000 unreported hours, that's $180k easily. But they will never try to collect I can practically guarantee it. Most people don't even have enough money to pay tax on all trades they make and they don't even think about it. Maybe Fresno can give us a break for a while and go yell at people for all the barter income tax they owe. Someone needs to make sure they never call it work after all. fresno just gave you a three-week break. What did you do with it? fresno has helped a lot of people to understand the difference between what they owe and what they assume they owe. Were you listening? Title: Re: Form 1099-K for 2011 Post by: FreeMoney on September 21, 2010, 04:23:20 AM I think the irs made some kind of ruling about barter that means tax is paid on the profit from a transfer of value, which bitcoin would fall into. Its all besides the point considering the fact the irs collects tax regardless of anything written in the constitution ie they will do whatever they want to. Full agree that the IRS will do whatever. But there are many things they could technically tax that they won't because it isn't feasible or it would be bad PR. If my neighbors and I watch each others kids with a barter understanding for an average of 6 hours a week for 3 decades then you've got 9000 unreported hours, that's $180k easily. But they will never try to collect I can practically guarantee it. Most people don't even have enough money to pay tax on all trades they make and they don't even think about it. Maybe Fresno can give us a break for a while and go yell at people for all the barter income tax they owe. Someone needs to make sure they never call it work after all. fresno just gave you a three-week break. What did you do with it? fresno has helped a lot of people to understand the difference between what they owe and what they assume they owe. Were you listening? Hi Fresno, three weeks went by fast. I have no idea what I owe and neither does anyone else. Title: Re: Form 1099-K for 2011 Post by: MoonShadow on September 21, 2010, 06:57:54 AM I'm calling for you to take responsibility for your disruption of the threads calling for an assessment of Bitcoin's legal standing. This is something that needs to be done, and is not helped by the invocation of various "everybody knows" laws at every turn. I've done nothing of the sort. You can feel free about funding a legal analysis, but I already have a pretty good idea what the net result would be. Nor have I said anything about "everybody" knows anything, if that were so, there would not be nearly the level of misinformation on this forum or the Internet at large. I've been operating under the general assumption that most people are wilfully ignorant, and am genuinely surprised whenever my assumptions are wrong only rarely. Quote Inappropriate legal terms have been thrown about casually in reference to Bitcoin, and these may be prejudicial to Bitcoin's survival. They need to be addressed and eliminated positively, and directly. Bitcoin can be structured so that it is not a currency, is not taxable, and is not reportable. This means no 1099s or other forms, IF we do this correctly. Good luck with your fork, keep us updated on your progress. Title: Re: Form 1099-K for 2011 Post by: jgarzik on September 21, 2010, 07:22:34 AM Inappropriate legal terms have been thrown about casually in reference to Bitcoin, and these may be prejudicial to Bitcoin's survival. They need to be addressed and eliminated positively, and directly. Bitcoin can be structured so that it is not a currency, is not taxable, and is not reportable. This means no 1099s or other forms, IF we do this correctly. For United States citizens, it is highly likely that bitcoin matches the IRS's barter rules, if nothing else: http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html (http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html) Title: Re: Form 1099-K for 2011 Post by: em3rgentOrdr on September 21, 2010, 08:43:04 AM Payments, cash, cash equivalents, credit, fees, refunds, money, currency, dollars, coins... NOW does everyone see what happens when you throw these loaded terms around? The 1099 is just the first of the reports that Bitcoiners will need to fill out for being so foolish. Red? Creighto? You guys still around to take responsibility? Take responsibility for what? Calling something what it is? Regardless, a 1099 would still be required, even when a commodity is being used for said trade. The IRS expects you to report any kind of transaction wherein the trade value, as measured in US currency on the open market, would exceed their arbitrary numbers. It doesn't matter if you are actually trading in US currency, another currency, or a commodity. Not to say that it isn't easier to successfully avoid filing a 1099 if no form of currency is (publicly) traded, but that doesn't apply to Bitcoin anyway. All transactions are public, it's just difficult for anyone to ever be certain what any one person actually has traded. If two tradesmen agreed to trade a new toilet on the electricians house for a new deck light at the plumbers house, they still haven't avoided a taxable event, even though they both might honestly believe that the government has no legitimate say in the matter. No, creighto, whatever you just said. Please restrict your 1099 and other reporting to your own personal affairs. I'm calling for you to take responsibility for your disruption of the threads calling for an assessment of Bitcoin's legal standing. This is something that needs to be done, and is not helped by the invocation of various "everybody knows" laws at every turn. Inappropriate legal terms have been thrown about casually in reference to Bitcoin, and these may be prejudicial to Bitcoin's survival. They need to be addressed and eliminated positively, and directly. Bitcoin can be structured so that it is not a currency, is not taxable, and is not reportable. This means no 1099s or other forms, IF we do this correctly. [facepalm]. This sounds like yet another "magic" word scheme I hear often in libertarian circles. Supposedly, if you just utter/write the correct sequence of words in court or on legal paperwork, then you are magically except from The State's aggression. e.g.: don't say "citizen", say "soverign" or "inhabitant"... :D A Note on Magic Words and Secret Formulas by Thomas L. Knapp in C4SS.org (http://c4ss.org/content/2016) Title: Re: Form 1099-K for 2011 Post by: Red on September 21, 2010, 05:05:55 PM I propose that every bitcoin transaction automatically generate and efax a 1099-B form to the IRS. No matter how small the transaction. Nothing like burying them in paperwork to make them rethink a rule. http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1099b.pdf
There must be some online service that will send the faxes for free. ;-) Title: Re: Form 1099-K for 2011 Post by: The Madhatter on September 21, 2010, 05:09:49 PM There must be some online service that will send the faxes for free. ;-) http://www.tpc.int/ (http://www.tpc.int/) I use to use this service in the late 90s. Not sure if it still works. Title: Re: Form 1099-K for 2011 Post by: thrashaholic on September 21, 2010, 07:25:37 PM Quote Bitcoin can be structured so that it is not a currency, is not taxable, and is not reportable. This means no 1099s or other forms, IF we do this correctly. This is a fool's errand. Trying to bend their rules while also paying respect to their authority is only going to get YOU bent and serviced. Stop trying to beat them on their own terms. Pun intended. Title: Re: Form 1099-K for 2011 Post by: Stephen Gornick on January 30, 2011, 10:44:25 AM Right on schedule, PayPal has started issuing notices requiring the Taxpayer's Id Number (TIN) to comply with the new 1099-K law that went into effect January 1st, 2011.
Here's the response from a PayPal user in response to another who filed a complaint about PayPal's new policy: Quote Do not provide and stop using Paypal. http://forums.ebay.com/db2/topic/Paypal/Paypal-Using-1099/510302422Apparently, the other new 1099 law, which may or may not end up getting repealed before it is scheduled to go into effect in 2012, is pretty much universally hated: http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2011/01/21/new-ugly-effect-tax-evasion Title: Re: Form 1099-K for 2011 Post by: em3rgentOrdr on January 30, 2011, 11:10:11 AM Uugh. PayPal is yet one more example of a pro-freedom "thing" that got corrupted into a pro-slavery "thing". I read a Cato article by the supposed "hard-core" anarcho-capitalist Peter Theil explaining that he founded PayPal to create an alternative currency outside the control of governments and central banks...but now look at what it has become. Yet another example of being corrupted by money and power, or atleast being forced to give-in to the government's demands.
Title: Re: Form 1099-K for 2011 Post by: kiba on January 30, 2011, 08:03:39 PM Uugh. PayPal is yet one more example of a pro-freedom "thing" that got corrupted into a pro-slavery "thing". I read a Cato article by the supposed "hard-core" anarcho-capitalist Peter Theil explaining that he founded PayPal to create an alternative currency outside the control of governments and central banks...but now look at what it has become. Yet another example of being corrupted by money and power, or atleast being forced to give-in to the government's demands. With all due respect, Peter Thiel doesn't run it anymore. Title: Re: Form 1099-K for 2011 Post by: em3rgentOrdr on January 30, 2011, 08:19:34 PM With all due respect, Peter Thiel doesn't run it anymore. Ok...that explains a lot. Title: Re: Form 1099-K for 2011 Post by: Zerbie on February 02, 2011, 06:56:54 PM Wonder if you can refuse to use FRN's and pay the taxes in BTC's instead. If the government wants, it can turn them back into FRN's. But the cool thing would be the legitimization of an alternative currency.
Title: Re: Form 1099-K for 2011 Post by: em3rgentOrdr on February 03, 2011, 07:28:27 AM Wonder if you can refuse to use FRN's and pay the taxes in BTC's instead. If the government wants, it can turn them back into FRN's. But the cool thing would be the legitimization of an alternative currency. Time to start a poll: who will be the first government to start accepting bitcoin as payment for taxes? Title: Re: Form 1099-K for 2011 Post by: markm on February 03, 2011, 08:54:03 AM The government of the Hacker nation on the planet known as B13, colloqially known as "Bitcoin" or "Planet Bitcoin".
Next poll: who will be the first to *pay* such taxes, and how does anyone know that 1FZRuiMdiaeuYLDpTgKEpZFXJqx8tzKxUf is the right address to send them to? Even if they published such an address, how do we know they will actually credit such payments against such taxes? -MarkM- Title: Re: Form 1099-K for 2011 Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2011, 09:03:20 AM Live outside the US so you dont have to file a form?
Title: Re: Form 1099-K for 2011 Post by: markm on February 03, 2011, 09:08:50 AM In my experience the U.S. seems to tend to want a form officially affirming I am not from the U.S. and further something about how much business I actually do in the U.S. or how totally I can really claim to not be U.S. or something like that. That might have been about some other form than the one discussed here but was something someone did need for me to do business with them due to they themselves were in the U.S.
-MarkM- Title: Re: Form 1099-K for 2011 Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2011, 09:12:58 AM In my experience the U.S. seems to tend to want a form officially affirming I am not from the U.S. and further something about how much business I actually do in the U.S. or how totally I can really claim to not be U.S. or something like that. That might have been about some other form than the one discussed here but was something someone did need for me to do business with them due to they themselves were in the U.S. -MarkM- I know with commission junction and other types of sites they get you to fill out that form. Its like they dont want anyone investing in the country .... Title: Re: Form 1099-K for 2011 Post by: markm on February 03, 2011, 09:38:20 AM Quote "Its like they dont want anyone investing in the country ...."
Since with CJ et al it's about them paying me "affiliate commissions", it seems in such cases more about the U.S. doesn't want them investing in potentially anti-U.S. terrorists. (Or who knows, maybe any terrorists, even pro-U.S. terrorists. What is the likelihood of that? Hmm...) -MarkM- |