Bitcoin Forum

Since the BTC transaction fee is 0.0001 BTC, here are what transfers will cost in the future:

$1,000 per coin = $0.10 transaction fee
$10,000 per coin = $1.00 transaction fee
$100,000 per coin = $10.00 transaction fee
$1,000,000 per coin = $100 transaction fee

Honestly, if Bitcoin goes to the 6-7 figure mark, I don't see how people would be willing to pay these fees.  Especially for everyday transactions.  And considering there aren't enough Bitcoins for everyone in the world to own even a tenth of a coin. Comments?

You do not understand the basics of Bitcoin/bitcoin.
The miner's fee can be adjusted in the future, to equal the new appropriate miners fee.
The decimal is not fixed, but adjustable, if and when needed.

For example, if 1BTC is equal to $1,000,000 USD (we all wish),
 then the miners fee will be adjusted to around 0.0000001 BTC or 10 Satoshis.

The fee has been adjusted in the past. It can easily be done again. The idea is that there'll be that many more transactions to compensate miners so fees won't have to be astronomical.

Also, if Bitcoin were to reach super high prices, it could be due to inflation of the dollar. Then in that case, paying a $10 fee for something that costs $1500 (e.g. a gallon of milk after hyper inflation) is not unimaginable and comparatively, is a small fraction.

Ah, I see - Thanks for clarifying.

The fee was 0.01 per kB, then it was reduced to 0.001 per kB. Now it is 0.0001 per kB. This fee changes with the value of bitcoin. It is not fixed.

Clever way to pimp your faucet referral link  ::) It was a valid question though...  ;) ....


From your post to the god's of Bitcoins ears... a 1 BTC / $1 000 000 price would cut my remaining working days to pension considerably.  ;D ... Do you reckon the fee would

really be that low at that price...  ??? 

Bitcoin has 8 decimal place. We could use mbtc, ubtc instead of btc at that time.

you can always lower the fee, because if the value will be that big, i doubt you will send 1 btc as it is right now for your shopping purpose, you will send much less 0.01 or lower, so this amount also need less fee

and anyway you can go with zero fees if needed...

that's what make bitcoin different than any other currencies, transfer fee are adjustable, even we can set it to zero fee. but i will never do that you know why, it is like delayed and takes too much time with zero fees.

I don't think that you understand how the miners fees work. Like you said, if the price went up that high, no one would pay that high of a fee, so no one would put the fee up that high. They can change, it is not a set fee. Do you understand now?


Exactly.

The fees can go to the minimum 0.00001 per k byte or recommended 0.0001 BTC per k byte. Even we can pay zero fee if you don't rush to get the transactions confirmed in the next block or the transactions have high priority.

ok lets give the OP something else to think about.

these 2 links
https://blockchain.info/charts/avg-block-size?timespan=30days -0.55mb blocksize average
https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions-per-block?timespan=30days - 1100 tx per block average..

this calculates to ~500byte per tx   (0.55mb / 1100=0.0005mb per tx)

now imagine we stuck to a $0.03cent tx fee, no matter what (dont worry about how many satoshi's it may be for now)
at a maximum of 2000tx in a 1mb block limit. the maximum block fee total if every tx had a fee would be $60
at a maximum of 16000tx in a 8mb block limit. the maximum block fee total if every tx had a fee would be $480
at a maximum of 64000tx in a 32mb block limit. the maximum block fee total if every tx had a fee would be $1920.

so people if you want to know how much pay you will get, when mining bitcoin is dependent only on fees and not reward.. now you know the maximum reward

so yea as bitcoins price increases and tx fees end up being 0.00000001 as the 3cent equivalent value, just remember that the total payout per block solved will still be limited.. to under $2k per block if tx fee's are 3cent each.

but for now, just enjoy the 25btc reward valued at $8000 per block
and next years 12.5btc reward, hopefully valuing bitcoin at $640+ to keep inline with $8000 per block reward

and dont worry so much about fee's as they wont become an important payout for decades, which is when farms wont be concentrating on mining and it will become more decentralised where handfulls of hobbyists are sharing the $2k/10 minute payout

Bitcoin have so many bright minds in development thats everything is forseen already :) and taken care of

Yeah, thats true. The fee is nothing much compared to what you are actually paying for. Anyway, the fee will not be that high.

Exactly this! When you just consider how Bitcoin was designed by its original creator and all of the things that he has thought about, this is mind blowing.

Then when you add on the top of this all of the smart people that are working currently on Bitcoin and all of the smart people that will probably be attracted in the future to work on Bitcoin, you cannot but feel good about our future!

When Bitcoin's value has reached that stage we will have several sidechains and lightning network, payment channels being implemented. And there you will do your micropayments and more smaller transactions.
At least this is my actual view how things could evolve.

If bitcoin wants to market itself as cheap it will lower the suggested fee again in the future.

Also, it is only a suggested fee, you can use a lower one, but be prepared to be waiting then.

As even 1 satoshi can be sent out transaction fee can be or will be adjusted like before in future. If one bitcoin will be 1,000,000$ than it will cost only 1cent for 1 satoshi so paying 1-3 satoshi will not be big deal to do transaction. So i don't think fee will create any problem in future of bitcoin use.

How would you change the fee, since bitcoin is a P2P network? Does someone go around asking people, "Hey! Stop paying 0.0001 as your tx fee! The meta is now 0.00001!"? Or do we have to switch to a totally different Bitcoin client?

This is all quite confusing to me, as you can see, I'm a mere Jr Member. Enlighten me.

The fee is not fixed. In the core client, there is recommended fee, such as 0.0001btc/kB. But you do not have to pay that. You can choose your fee. In the busy times, it is better to pay higher fees to get faster confirmation. In the not so busy times, you can reduce the fee to lower than the recommended fees and can still get confirmed.

Why do you use fiat as a reference, it is hard for anyone to set a reliable exchange as a source. Transaction fees are decided mostly by the miner and they can choose to accept those with higher fees and ignore those with lower fees. The only fees which you must follow for a non-free transaction is the relay fee. But again, nodes can adjust them.

As far as I know transaction fee has nothing to do with the amount of bitcoin you are sending. You are paying for transferring data.
If your transaction is compiled from single input your fees will be lower than sending BTC collected from many sources before.

Transaction fees have never been determined by the network, only the relay fee. It can be changed since users can compile the code themselves and it is easier now with arguments to use. Miners are the only ones deciding the transaction fees to accept. They call the shots.

Actually the market does. If a miner doesn't accept low transaction fees, then they will be making less Bitcoin. At this time it is kind of irrelevant, but in the future, transaction fees will become more important and something that miners won't want to miss.

The reason cryptocurrencies were made so that they can overcome this problems ! Don't worry about the mining fees ,as long as we have enough miners we are safe also I don't think we are ever running out of minners .Cheers mate .

It is complicated because there is no set fee.

Each miner decides which transactions they will include in a block, and the fee paid by a transaction is a major part of the decision. The decision process used by most miners has typically been the one implemented in Bitcoin Core, but I don't think that is the case any more.

Some wallets now look at transactions waiting to be included in the next block and use that information to determine how much of a fee to pay. Currently, Mycellium has been telling me to pay around 0.0002. Blockchain requires the user to enter a fee, and I currently pay between 0.0001 and 0.0005 depending on how important the transaction is. Other wallets might just use a fixed fee set by the developer.

Do you think once mining can become decentralized again, for instance, if every laptop computer comes with an asic mining chip, couldn't the electricity used to power your laptop replace any fees that one would have to pay?

No, that is not the point of fees. The fees are an incentive to miners to include a transaction in their blocks. If there are no fees, then there is no incentive for them to include your transaction. It is basically a bribe, not a mandatory thing you need to have, just something recommended.

Before the time bitcoin reaches $2000, we would have another transaction fee adjustment. No need to worry about that. If for some reason fees didn't drop, there will be many off chain solutions to handle smaller payments.

The fee depends on the size of the transaction, not the amount of BTC sent. You may send billions and have the same transaction size.

And the fee is more or less a free market, if prices rise, then miners will be willing to receive less bitcoins to include your transaction in blocks, and the other will be obligated to do the same or have no block to mine

So what if instead of a transaction based reward for mining, the inclusion of a petty amount of hash power gets you free transactions?  The ability to participate in the network, broadcasting zero cost transactions becomes the incentive.  Maybe that's kind of what the lightening network is trying to do. I just don't see how bitcoin will survive mining centralization.  At least the bitcoin that I have grown to appreciate.  

i never care with bitcoin transaction fee,i always looking for the smalest transaction fee,even your data is happen to me,i just make a small transaction in every trade or sent,just for avoid the transaction fee ;D
but someday i will consider it,maybe when bitcoin price up to $1000 per bitcoin :D

But is that really worth the cost of running a miner? Transaction fees are around 3 cents. The savings do not offset the cost of having to pay the electricity for the miner, maintaining the miner, and buying the miner itself. Unless you are sending massive amounts of transactions every day with huge fees, then the cost of running your own miners would outweigh the benefits of having free transactions.

i think you're consufing "less decentralization" with "real centralization" there is no centralization right now and there will not be in the future

only because china is owning the majority of the network it does not mean that we are centralized, even if china was owning 100% this is still not centralization, if all the farm are pointing at different pool, and the owner is not the same guy

also what you're sayig it's not possible, you want that a laptop pay the fee buy providing enough hash to cover the fee itself, every laptop with an asic chipset would generate a tiny fraction of the current fee, so not feasible

Technically, if mining becomes so centralized that majority of the power goes to one or even a small amount of pool, they can all agree on which is the minimum fees to include and force the network to pay the higher fees. The only thing that is close to paying small is the small amount of space reserved for free transactions.

True, but mining will not become that centralized. Miners will abandon that pool if it comes anywhere close to reaching 50% of the mining power. This has happened in the past.

The division into parts (satoshi) no one traded and the large amount involved in the transaction the greater will be the amount of the fee. In the future the system will only exist at the expense of the fee from transactions.

Fees are not set in stone, we can alter them as bitcoin develops. However as the hashing power is constantly increasing and if we could not sustain that hashing power, then I guess mining farms need to shut down. This will likely happen in 20 years time.

If you take your suggestion, but you also have the option of paying someone else to hash for you, then you have the current system.

Mycellium wallet asks me what priority I want to use when I want to send a transaction. If I remember well, there are 4 or 5 priorities, like Low, Economy, Normal, High. Fees are really different, but I haven't noticed if they are hard coded into the app nor I have noticed if they are changing by the amount or peak time. I usually use Economy because fee is nearly 0 but in a little time my transaction is always becomes confirmed.

I think that the transaction fees are not affected by the bitcoin volume, it can be 1BTC or 1,000BTC and both of them can have the same transaction fee, i think that the fees will be decreased time by time until 1 satoshi.

When bitcoin price is around 4/5k and stable for let's say 1 year, i can't think the fee will decline to 1-10 satoshi.

But remember there is also a fee to stop spammers from flooding the network. So propably it will be around 10 satoshi or so.

Mmm this scenery could be posible, but for me seems 1-10 satoshis when the Price is around 4-5k looks so small, in the other hand, i would like to see the transactions fee to 1 satoshis only, this could mean that everything is going really nice ;)

If the price per Bitcoin rises, the fees should lower, so they would constantly be around 0.03$.

More like 100 Satoshi if Bitcoin price is around 4/5k.

But it also depends how big competetion is there to be included to the block. Today the competetion is not so big because blocks are not filled up all the time. But soon it can happen and the fees have to increase if you want your transaction included in the block - fees rising scenario until it makes no sence to use Bitcoin for average user because of very high fees.

I don't see this happening, as everyone else here said, it's not fixed so it can always change.

I don't mind it going a bit higher if the value goes up by 1.000.000

As long as I pay the same fee for every transaction

sadly this is not the case, the fee will not be lower, what will be lower exactly is the amount you spend, because bitcoin will be worth more

this also mean that you will use less fee, so in the end yes the fee will be lower, but indirectly speaking

I dont think that bitcoin transaction fees will grow as u r thinking because if this happens people will start avoiding the use of bitcoin .

I honestly wish we would have this problem in future. This would mean that Bitcoin has made it huge! If this was to happen, I am not that worried. Everything in Bitcoin can be changed and I believe if we would encounter this fee problem, that this would be solved as well! So no worries!

this is not how it works. fees have nothing to do with USD/BTC value
I doubt we will even see .01 fee in the future even if BTC hits $10mil

1 satoshi will be the last one, when the price will reach very high, the halving period will be at the end, but that is far away from now probably.

there is no need to worry. as long as the price goes up high enough, the mining pools will get their rewards and thus make good profits. then there basically isn't a direct need to raise the fees.

Transaction fees will be changed according to the Price of BTC (In case there is no inflatation of the Fiat currency).
Fees should never reach a price, its not worth to pay anymore

There will always be a standard fee governed by market forces. If the fee is too high in fiat value, users will try to pay less. When more people send with less fee, the standard fee is lowered. Transactions are still "standard" if fee is above 0.00001 btc, set by a variable in bitcoin core code.

I don't think that fees will change with the price of BTC. Maybe they will change paralell with the price of BTC but not because of it. It can happen that the price will raise and because of the raise of the price more and more people will start using BTC. It will then make fees raise because people will have to pay more to get their transaction included. But this raise of the fee is not because of the price raise it's just starts some market movements that can raise the fees but this is not automatic.

If prices will skyrocket they ll ofcourse adjust the transaction fees. No need to worry mate

The fees are always adjusted. Thus, of course there is not enough bitcoin for everyone in the world own one, and that's the beauty of it. If BTC one day worth $10 000 then the new standard bitcoin would be the millibit, and the fees would be adjusted; And that would be perfectly feasible, considering the huge number of transactions.

1BTC equal to £1 000 000 i cannot wait for that to be the case....... ;D

it's simple the higher the value of BTC the lower the transaction fee will be lower so it will adjust by the value of BTC at that time

That's utterly ridiculous they will obviously adjust the miners fee. :-\

It is possible for the network to adjust the amount of transaction fee whenever it is desired. Indeed with the increasing bitcoin price it will become a problem in the future but it can be easily solved.

This is actually a very large and forward-looking topic, tied to the discussion of block size limit

It is forward-looking because currently majority of the miner's income is coming from block reward(25 btc per block), the fee income is neglectable

So you can observe that some chinese mining pools would mine empty blocks to just harvest the block reward and quickly broadcast that empty block to the network (their network speed is slow, if they broadcast a full 1MB block, the chance that block being orphaned will be larger, thus incur a loss for the pool)

Basically, a smart pool will calculate the block orphan risk when including transactions (more transactions will raise the orphan rate due to longer broadcasting time), so today's recommended fee is based on the result of such calculation, not arbitrarily decided

For example, if a full 1MB block containing 2000 transactions will broadcast slower than an empty block, thus raise the block orphan rate by 1%, then the pool will lose 1% of the block reward, which is 0.25 BTC, divided by 2000 transactions, you get 0.000125 btc per transaction, that's the recommended fee right now

For 2MB blocks, the broadcasting time of such a large block might affect the orphan rate more significantly, say raise the block orphan rate to 4%, and now you can include 4000 transactions in each block. As a result, although each block have double amount of transactions, but a full block will cost 4x more for miners, so the fee for each transaction would double

So increase the block size might bring a higher fee, if the network is not fast enough to broadcast a 2MB block worldwide in 10 minutes



And then you have another scenario of fixed block size at 1MB forever. In this case, the transaction capacity is always 2000 transactions per block, people will compete for these limited spaces, and also combine their small transactions into large ones to save the fee. Just like Fedwire system only processes 4 transactions per second, if bitcoin become a system like that, then it will only process large transactions valued more than 1 million dollars, and users would not mind paying thousands of dollars in fee (0.x%)

There is a question: Should miners incentive be raised above block reward long before the block reward drop to zero(even at 4th or 5th halving), or after that?

Currently, due to the block reward, you can not enforce a higher fee for miners, since the miners on today's fast network have very low orphan rate if they include all the 2000 transactions, thus any fee above 0.0001 is good enough for them to happily include it

However, if block is larger and the network speed is limited, miners can not include as many as possible transactions without added orphan cost, then I guess the fee will rise when blocks grow beyond certain size

Exactly, this is what is great about Bitcoin as a technology.  Everything was built in and planned.  What a great mind to forsee all of this.

You just have to wait, that is probably 30 years away from now if the dollar does not devalue too fast. The transaction fee will be able to support the network.