Bitcoin Forum

TL;DR: bitcoinblackfriday.info -- brought to you by bought accounts & signature campaigns.

Why create a new account just to post this? Whether account sales are allowed or not it wouldn't have prevented this so it's irrelevant (though I'm sure even more scams would be commited by bought accounts if people were blind/ignorant to the fact that sales go on). Not sure what signature campaigns have to do with this particular case either? I'm also not sure why thriftshopping didn't just try pull the scam off with his account as it was the same rank as the one he bought.

>Why create a new account just to post this?
Because fear of retaliation.

>Whether account sales are allowed or not it wouldn't have prevented this so it's irrelevant.
Source?

>I'm sure even more scams would be commited by bought accounts if people were blind/ignorant to the fact that sales go on
So account sales are allowed so that thermos can play nanny to clueless noobs?
Should we also allow trolling, to teach noobs about trolls? And spamming, so that they'd learn that worthless posts exist?

> Not sure what signature campaigns have to do with this particular case either?
Bitcoinblackfriday.info used a signature campaign to advertise its website.

Search in the forums for cryptofate, asmtime, cryptex and tell me if the owners of theses projects had a bought accounts or not, if you are too lazy to search then i will tell you that when they scammed many users they were newbies with 28 activity each.
To say that scammers gonna scam whether they are newbies or legendary with their own or bought account.

No one can stop a scammer from committing a fraud with a bought account.
It cannot be avoided. Unless the seller did not sell his/her account to the scammer.

Retaliation? How can people retailate against this?


Use your brain. Banning account sales does not mean nobody will ever sell or buy accounts. Banning them will just push them further underground.


No, they're allowed because banning them wouldn't do anything at all.


Your point being? They also advertised on this site. They also created threads. Ban forum advertisements and creating threads?

If people die without getting shot, why make murder illegal? Is that your question?

>No one can stop a scammer from committing a fraud with a bought account.
No one is saying that people can't scam without buying an account. A bought account simply makes it easier.

It might make it easier or quicker for some, but how many bought accounts actually go on to scam? It's rare that they do, comapred to the 99% of people who just buy them to use for signature campaigns. You know as well as I do that banning account sales wouldn't do anything at all to stop people scamming from them so I don't know why you (and others) insist on banging your head agaisnt a brick wall. We don't even moderate scams here either so why aren't you complaining about that? There's more importamt things to be worrying and protesting about on here than whether we futilely ban account sales or not.

Neg trust ratings, selective moderation leading to ban (by bitcointalk forum mods selling accounts/participating in sig campaigns.
Use your brain.

True. Banning murder drives murderers underground. Nevertheless, dollars to doughnuts that fewer murders, vs. shit being 100% legal.
Bonus: when an underground murderer is discovered, he could be punished. If murder legal, not so much.

Explain how banning trolling/spam is any different?

My point being the answer to your question, duh. Or, as you so eloquently phrased it, "Use your brain."

P.S. I understand the sheer idiocy of arguing this point with a forum mod, likely engaged in account sales, definitely wearing a paid signature.
Like trying to convince the guy who just stole your wallet that he's a thief -- a fool's errand.

Yes, because people leave negative feedback on others for complaining about moderation or forum policy. I'll tell you why people create new accounts to post this stuff, because people either don't have the balls to post from the main account, don't want to look stupid or just troll asking the same questions that have been asked over and over again. Probably all three in your case. Keep banging your head against that wall.

>don't have the balls to post from the main account
When discussing forum policy requires balls, something is definitely wrong :(

>Keep banging your head against that wall
See postscript in my previous post.

The only way to curb account sales is to get rid off signature campaigns. The issue with that is the forum wants all of those posters here so it will never happen. This forum would lose a huge amount of traffic if the campaigns stopped.

How exactly would effectively banning the sale of accounts have stopped the bitcoinblackfriday.info scam? The account had zero prior trade history and zero trust. I don't think anyone fell for the scam because it was run by a full member.

---

To answer your question, allowing the sale of accounts gives value to accounts. If someone wants to scam with a purchased account then they will first need to invest some amount of money to buy the account. Once it is determined that the account has attempted (successfully or not) a scam, that account will most likely receive negative trust and the value of the initial investment will be zero (or close to it). In order to roi by scamming with a purchased account, a scammer will need to scam an amount more then what they paid for the account. It is also not uncommon for scams to outright fail (I have been the cause of a number of scams failing ;) ), so the potential scammer who buys an account with the intent of scamming will actually lose money.

---

Why the banning of the sale of accounts actually helps scammers:
As mentioned previously mentioned, if account sales are banned then account selling will still take place, but underground. This will cause the price of accounts to fall, likely significantly. This means that a scammer who wants to buy an account in order to scam with it will need to invest less money to attempt to pull off their scam, and risk less money to attempt their scam. As a result more of these scams will have a positive roi.

So mr anon (don't act like I don't know who you are btw), do you want to make it easier for scammers to make money via scamming?

It doesn't require balls, but that seems to be your excuse. It would be like me using an alt to respond to this thread just so I didn't have to deal with the same crap that inevitably comes from brand new accounts created to talk forum policy. I have more respect and patience for those that don't feel the need to cowardly create a new account to speak their mind. Absolutely nothing would have happened to your main account had you posted this from it but you probably just want a throwaway so you can post crap without it reflceting badly on your main account.


And see my post above. I also understand the sheer idiocy of arguing this point with a forum newb created soley to post baseless accusations, irrelevancy, and ad hominems, but that's why you created a new account.


Account sales would not stop if signature campaigns went. Sure, accounts are currently farmed here largely because of signature campaigns but if campaigns were banned then all that would happen would be a hell of a lot of high-ranked dirt cheap accounts flood the market when people ditch this forum as they realise they no longer need their account(s). Now, if you're making the argument that account sales encourage scams then people would sure as hell mostly buy them to scam once that's the only thing they have worth for.

@Quickseller:
>I don't think anyone fell for the scam because it was run by a full member.

Right. The account was bought not because it made scamming easier, but to help bitcoin ecosystem. Because people trust a noob account as much as any other account. Brother probably bought the account to participate in a signature campaign :)

>Once it is determined that the account has attempted (successfully or not) a scam, that account will most likely receive negative trust and the value of the initial investment will be zero (or close to it).

So what you're telling me is GotaPauj account is worthless now? Dang, that'll teach him!

>So mr anon (don't act like I don't know who you are btw)

Sharp as a pickle! I also know who you are - an account dealer caught lying through your teeth, also wearing a paid sig. To reiterate:

@hilariousandco: See boldface above.

Well obviously hilarious is biased towards campaigns as he runs a few. Simple fact is the forum would be better without them and open account sales. I agree you can not stop sales, but it would make it harder. Also scams like what happened can not be stopped because the people who fall for them would scammed one way or another. This thread is pointless like the other 50 threads before it. The forum will not stop sales or signature campaigns.

He probably bought the account to get around posting restrictions, and limits to the number of PM's he can send every hour. He could have easily created an account two months ago, making a small number of posts to get around these restrictions.
In this case it does not matter because he was successful. However there is no guarantee that his scam was successful, and if it was not successful then he would be out the money that he spent buying it.

The account that he bought GotaPauj with was already a full member account, so it didn't have the posting restrictions.

OP, account sales do not prevent scams. However by allowing account sales on this forum, it will be easier to catch scammers. If account sales were not allowed here, then those sales would still occur, just not on this forum. By having the sales on this forum, people can check the threads and figure out what other accounts are owned by that seller. The admins can check the ip addresses of the scammer and check the pms to determine who bought what account. By facilitating the sales here, all of the data regarding the account sale which can be used later in catching scammers is all in one place where the admins can also help catch the scammers.

Absolutely. Also, terrorists don't have to use Kalashnikovs to kill people. They could have amade some shitty nitric explosives, or simply smothered people to death with pillows.
Doesn't change the fact that both a bought account & a sig campaign were instrumental in this scam.

@Blazed: Not sure. What do you feel is the alternative? Simply ignore? Pretend that a bunch of petty profiteers didn't turn this place into a joke? Accept that the Bitcoin userbase is a bunch of petty scammers, as browsing bitcointalk suggests?

@Pattart: Thanks for contributing. Could you give me a rough estimate re. percentage of scammed BTC returned to the victims, via the methods you've outlined?

He also advertised on the forum, and the forum ad most likely got many more views then the signature campaign posts did.

Like I said, the fact that he was using an obviously purchased account played zero in the scam being successful. He directed people to a website that directed people to other fake websites that appeared to be trustworthy. I don't think anyone investigated how trustworthy the person running it was.

Not much could have been done to prevent that scam really. People need to pay attention to what they are clicking on plain and simple.

I don't think that any Bitcoin has been returned to scam victims ever really since it is hard to force the scammer to return any bitcoin. However what I said above does make it easier to prevent people from falling for other scams run by the same person but under different accounts. People can give negative trust to all of the guy's alts so that if he tries to scam again, he can't with any account he already has, and the more accounts he gets, the more likely he might slip up and then that can bring down entire scams by linking the account back to a previous account that scammed. Most of this will be easier since all of the data about the sales of the accounts are already located on this forum. You don't have to go and hunt around in other forums and try to get other people from other forums to give up data for a scam accusation, it is all already here in one place.

>advertised on the forum
Sure. Smoking is bad for you. So is sucking on a shotgun, and absentmindedly pulling the trigger. One is simpler to avoid than the other.
Start by not allowing account sales and sig campaigns. Then we can see what could be done about thermos promoting scams.
Baby steps.

>played zero in the scam being successful.
False. Sure, it could have been accomplished differently, just as

@Blazed: Then why ban links to phishing sites? Since linking to phishing sites is not allowed, clooless noobs are lulled into thinking that phishing links don't exist, a sense of false security [& all the rest of the bullshit rationale for allowing account sales].

@Pattart re "I don't think that any Bitcoin has been returned to scam victims ever really": Never happened in 6+ years, so irrelevant.

Anyway, you are an idiot, and are incapable of having a mature conversation. Welcome to my ignore list.

Hopefully this account will get banned for trolling, and caught in the mess will be your main account that will also get banned by virtue of when one account is banned, they all are.

You too, buddy! Be well :)

I've always found this to be a flawed argument, and not sure why you stick to it. One, murder, is the crime. The other, account selling, is a tool that can be used to commit a crime. A more apt analogy would be to compare account sales to gun or knife sales, tools that can be used to commit the crime.

It also makes the posts much more amusing to read when you picture a soccer mom screaming about how guns are evil and should be banned, though I suppose that depends on your stance about that. 

Tell me about it i have had a million threats of different types here.. hunted & Trolled for Life !

The thing you should understand about hypotheticals is they're not a substitute for the equal sign. When I present you with the hypothetical "why make murder illegal," I do not mean to suggest that !(proscribing account sales) = !(proscribing murder). There are, indeed, differences.

The text you have quoted was a response to TL;DR: "account sales are a necessary evil, better than they happen here than elsewhere."
If you feel that account sales are desirable, like gun sales in your example, feel free to explain why.

That said, a forum created to advance Bitcoin is not necessarily the best place to sell guns.
Or to double as an online scam bazaar.
Or as a casino.
Or a place where usurers prey on degenerate gamblers.
Or as an MLM ponzi promotion vehicle.
Or a banner ad platform.

If you & thermos didn't, in all your wisdom, endow it with all these trappings of petty scumbaggery, account sales would not be an issue.
See how a problem could be solved by thinking outside the box? :)

Shut your crap already, this is a private forum not something to "advance Bitcoin" if you don't like it, go to the those other forum where you're spammed with ref links ponzis and what not , at least here they are moderated quite good.
Buying account increases forum traffic, because of signature campaigns, which inturn benefit signature campaign owners, participants and the sites. Some scams along the way, well just Caveat emptor, if you know accounts are being bought you'll get more suspicious and which will prevent you from other scammers as well.

Dead wrong, Friend. It is a forum started to advance Bitcoin.

Satoshi didn't start this place for you to scratch out pennies by whoring out your signature, and then lose those pennies to other, slightly smarter scumbags in the gambling section.
Fuck you :)

Yeah right...
I believe "Satoshi" would've been here a long ago if he actually wanted to put a stop to this. He's not, and he's chosen the admins carefully who think in best interest of the forum. Just wonder how popular bitcointalk would be without all the drama, signatures etc and only "Technical discussion" . The ones who don't wear signature(except a select few), come and answer questions in weeks.
Edit: Thanks.

Satoshi left this place a long time ago, thanks, partially, to you & your ilk.
He has not "chosen the admins carefully," no more than Lenin has carefully chosen Stalin. If you have evidence to the contrary, please present it.

He also did not create this forum in hopes of, someday, getting awesome Alexa ratings by attracting all of the internet's petty thieving lowlifes, thus supporting the mainstream conception of Bitcoin as the currency of greedy but otherwise laughably inept criminals and degenerate gamblers.
You'll have to just take my word on that one :)

Satoshi left before any service was started being promoted, so its not because of the "spam". Admins are good, the forum is supposed to represent all the areas of Bitcoin, which can be seen in Boards and sub-boards, and its just that Gambling happens to be a big part of Bitcoin, believe it or not.
Scams are discouraged due to the "invention" of Trust system, which cannot be abused by any random newbie with lots of alts. And as I said before, Caveat Emptor, look out for yourselves and don't blame the admins for anything that happens.

>Gambling happens to be a big part of Bitcoin
So is scamming and halfass criminality. From this we should conclude that bitcointalk should promote shit crime and cater to thieves and scammers? Or?

The rest of your post is simply irrelevant -- "inventing" a trust system would not be necessary if this place wasn't a scamfest. Let me repeat:

P.S. re. "Trust system, which cannot be abused by any random newbie with lots of alts": But abusing it with bought alts is just fine.
You bought this account what, Sept. of this year?
Cancer, you are :)

You can't clean out all the scams, DT has done their best part in it and has saved quite a lot of possible scams.
How exactly is my post irrelevant? If there is a system, there will always be a flaw. If account sales are banned, people will just find new ways of buying them and then all trust ratings will be considered valid which will in turn cause more scam.

Never said that.. anyway who am I kidding with, I'm just trolling a bigger troll.
Close enough /sarcasm , isn't someone allowed to use the potential activity they had previously built?
Thanks. Over and out

>If there is a system, there will always be a flaw. If account sales are banned, people will just find new ways of buying them and then all trust ratings will be considered valid which will in turn cause more scam.

Not sure if joking or can't read:

There is a reason why my bank doesn't have a roulette wheel/gun shop/guy selling used condoms/hookers sucking D in the lobby.
Guess why that is.

ELI5:
- Stop hawking shit on an internet discussion forum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_forum), and you wouldn't need any kind of trust system, flawed or not.
-Stop promoting ponzi schemes (illegal pretty much everywhere, and certainly in US, where thermos hails from), or have no foot to stand on when mainstream press paints bitcoin as the currency of scammers and idiots.

>Over and out
Have a nice one, QS :)

I don't care about account sales, I care about promoting free trade and open discussion as much as possible. I don't "allow" things because I personally find them desirable, I like them, or approve of them.

It's a general ideological position, this isn't going to change.

There are several other forums where people can go if that's what they want.

Hi badbear can I ask you something please?

I know this is off topic so just message me when you see this, then I'll delete it.

But in topic with advice to OP: I think selling accounts is odd, but fine. It probably won't stop scams. It'll probably make it worse, but there's not much we can do. Newbie or legendary, that doesn't automatically make a user trusted or untrusted.

>I don't care about account sales, I care about promoting free trade
Could you explain to me why no other organization promoting free trade is, simultaneously, pimping scam/phishing websites, selling used rubbers, and promoting ponzis?

> and open discussion as much as possible.
Please explain how:
-Accounts being bought & sold promotes free speech.
-Sig campaign spam?
-Gambling/ponzi scheme subfora?

I don't want you to "disallow" things because I personally find them detestable, I hate them, or disapprove of them.

It's a general ideological commonsensical position, this isn't going to change.

There are several other forums where people can go if that's what they want.

It really, really doesn't prevent scams. In fact, it promotes scanned. Scammers purchase a clean rep account and then scam with it more than they paid for it.

They do not, and neither does this site. Allowing those things to be posted here and kept here is part of preventing scams. It is preserving the evidence. If all scams were moderated and then deleted, then those users posting them could potentially could scam later because there is no evidence (thread with all of the evidence would have been deleted) remaining linking them to the scam. At that point, it would all just be the accusers' word against the scammer's. By keeping threads about those sites here, the evidence is kept, the OP is negged, and the evidence can be used in the future to link other accounts to the same scammer and prevent future scams.

AFAIK phishing sites and sites that have malware are removed.

What is wrong with selling used stuff? By no means are accounts being marketed as new, that is completely impossible. Since when has selling used goods been a bad thing?

The forum does not promote ponzis. In fact most ponzi operators are immediately negged, but as I said before, their threads are being kept as those threads can provide evidence. If you find a thread about a ponzi and you can't see the big red "Warning: trade with caution" under the poster's name and you are scammed and lose money, that is entirely your fault. The only reason the investor based games subforum exists is to keep all of those ponzis in the same location and so that all of them can get the same universal warning that those sites are gambling and/or scams.

I hereby ban account sales here and on all other forums. Now go forth and do evil no more.

That should do it, right?

Let me see if I follow:
This forum creates a sub for ponzi schemes, allows them to buy trusted senior accounts and promote themselves via banner ads (i.e. provides them with all the tools they need to operate), and then, if these illegal ponzis turn out to be ...illegal ponzis, ~catch breath~ AND if the operators return to do it again, the evidence will be right here, to be used to catch the criminals leave them a negative rating?
Tell me, how many times was the evidence this public ledger of shame ever useful in reuniting victims with their coins?

Bitcointalk must be the craziest, longest-running honeypot/entrapment scheme on record, no?

You mean, the evidence is deleted, so that the scammer could return and try again? :o

What's wrong with selling used stuff? It depends what the used stuff is, doesn't it?
Some feel that selling used passports, used identities, and even pre-watched child porn might not be the best idea. You may disagree.

Please understand that sort of thing can get you some serious time. Running a shooting gallery, for instance, would. Even if you tell the nice judge that had you not provided your service, the junkies would shoot up in playgrounds, and you sold drugs at your bangasorium only as a means of containment, and to avail LEO with evidence when needed.

Protip: A sign saying "SHOOTING DOPE MAY BE DANGEROUS TO YOUR HEALTH, AND I MIGHT SELL YOU SOME RAT POISON INSTEAD OF H -- CAVEAT EMPTOR!" may not be enough to get you a [used] "get out of jail free" card.


Right. now go to auctions and digital goods subs, and nuke users selling accounts.
Get back to me when done :)