Bitcoin Forum

So i think that chinese BTC traffic is completely false,the bitcoin that are on their sites are not real,they are present only on their systems, they do not really exist.

So all the pump of the last 2 month are fake, the price of BTC is in the hands of these scammers with no regulation.

no one says anything, perhaps because it benefits everyone this fake bull...

well the other exchange reflect the true value anyway, even if the demand was artificially increased by their faked pump, the demand adapted to it

anyway anything that can increase the bitcoin value it's a good thing

I doubt any other Bitcoin exchange is being *regulated* when it comes to their BTC trading either so if you think you really are getting "more honest figures" from other exchanges you should consider the fact that they could simply create their own trading accounts that are paying the fees to themselves and manipulate their volume just as much.

At least the Chinese exchanges "don't pretend".

Unless all the exchanges openly disclosed everyone's account details (which they wouldn't and shouldn't of course) then you can never trust their "books" to be honest (as none of them are being properly audited).

Thanks for the professional answer that you gave me,

I hope that one day this will be adjusted in some way!

How do you work this out, any proof for your serious claim's?

Oh look, a bear in denial.        

Fake volume or not, the price is rising, the amount of transactions and the amount of wallets are rising too.      

Bitcoin is growing, deal with it.     

It won't ever stop growing until a large part of the world uses it. We aren't even close to that point.

No proof, but with no rules or control on chi exchanges scrypt (the US and EU exchanges have rules)  it is almost impossible that they do not fake the bid/ask walls..

Well I am paying an ever-increasing price for btc, so that's definitely real.

Yeah, it seems everything that comes out of China is fake.  It would not surprise me if your hypothesis were true, though it doesn't seem you have evidence for it.  It kinda reminds me of Mt. Gox right before they Goxxed.  In that case, though, the huge premium on Gox was b/c of the huge risk of trading there.  Nice, steady climb is what we need and go screw the bears.

Yes, they are suspicious.

But price is increasing, so even if it is fake, I wouldn't complain.

If it is fake, I hope they do better than Goxand don't implode

By "traffic" I'm assuming you mean trading volume. Even if the volume is false, the price is still based on buying pressure and selling pressure. If the volume is fake on the Chinese exchanges, it shouldn't matter to any other exchange, because the buyers and sellers who make up the price aren't operating there, and those exchanges have no power to fake data on any other exchange.

Might be driven by large capital fleeing china

Chinise are  risking prisoning for any financial fraud including  btc  fraud

They have the biggest mining companies there running soo all beneficts when the price goes up,because there isnt nothing new to make the currently price stand or the last pump from 300 to 400 soo ,call it profit from the mining companies,100 dollars unit sure make diferent when you mine.

Unless someone will get scammed by them, won't get coins or money I don't have any problem with their 'fake volume' or users traffic.
It is not that you can determine the volume of ANY  bitcoin exchange anyway.

how can you said like that?if that was true,so i have been manipulate when i sell bitcoin,and so some exchange or market who make OK Coin,Huobi and other as stndard of price also manipulated the price?
anyway,you are right,its benefits for me and everyone sell bitcoin.

Yep, in terms of trading volume displayed by thrse exchanges. That isn't new for us and they've been doing that for almost a year now. Sometimes, I just get surprised how these exchanges achieve a volume that big compared to what Western exchanges can collectively.

There is no trading fees there, collectively someone with hundreds of btc could just buy and sell the bitcoin to make it looks like the number of volume is moving fast. Also there has been accusation of them faking volume from the inside before. it is just some code to mess to make the number moving faster anyway

I also doubt about that, they may be creating fake trading volume. But how to show proof of that, so we have to enjoy rise of price and try our best to be in safe side.

I never use any of these exchanges located in Hong Kong or China. If the owner of the exchange runs away after stealing the coins of his customers, then there is no chance that you will get any of your coins back. The Chinese officials would tell you that they will not be able to help, as Bitcoin exchanges are banned in that country.

As that is not the case I would be surprised if they would say that (not that you would necessarily get any help if a Chinese exchange went belly up though either).

You do realise that in mainland China you can transfer RMB to and from exchanges such as BTCC directly from your bank account (and that this has been the case for quite a while now)?

Also you should realise that mainland laws do not apply to Hong Kong (nor vice versa). For all general purposes Hong Kong is still a separate country (you might want to read about the "one country two systems" stuff if you think that mainland officials have any say over the laws and there enforcement in Hong Kong).

Also in regards to this supposed "volume faking" I'd question exactly how that is supposed to be taking place.

For sure I could place an offer and then place a bid for the same amount and price but if others get in before me there is actually no guarantee that the offer is still there (so the bid could quite likely end up unfilled meaning there is a risk of actually losing funds if the price moves which is not likely to be something the exchanges would do with their own funds).

I think it would require a bit more than just zero fees to be able to really be certain of "rigging the volume" (for a start your bids and offers would have to be processed before all others to be sure that nothing goes wrong in regards to the order matching).

It seems to me a lot of the protestations about the volume on Chinese exchanges comes from western exchanges (or on their behalf) who haven't worked out a business model that doesn't involve taking a fee from each trade.

What really matters is that when you make a bid it is matched against an offer - if that wasn't happening then I'd be concerned but provided your bids get matched then who really cares about where the offers came from?

I was being skeptical, after seeing the aftermath of the Mt Gox robbery in Japan. The robbery happened more than two years back, and till now the former users have not received a single penny in their account. If this can happen in Japan, which is famous for having strong law enforcement, then what will be the case if something similar happens in China?

nothing new. day after day the exchanges huobi and okcoin have mega loads of volumes. even on calm days. it's more than obvious that these exchanges fake their volume by probably 10 times.

It is reasonable to be skeptical about what would happen if an exchange disappears but I think that actually applies to pretty much every single Bitcoin exchange in the world (not just those in Asia).

If Bitstamp just did a Gox how exactly do you think its members are better protected than those in China?

I hope so (although not 100% sure about it). Since Bitstamp is based in Slovenia (which happens to be an European Union member nation), the chances are that if the owner tries to run away with all the coins of the customers, then an Interpol red alert will be issued for him and eventually he will be arrested and the coins returned to the rightful owners.

:D

Seriously - you think that Interpol are going to find the coins when they are stolen?

Why don't you just send Interpol to Japan to solve the Mt. Gox problem then?

(can't work out if you are just trolling or what)

I don't know why Mark Karpeles is a free man right now, despite stealing $600 million worth of coins and ruining the lives of tens of thousands of people. But do you really think that a crime of such magnitude will be left unpunished in the European Union? Interpol has arrested people for financial crimes of far lower volume.

Also, it is not about finding the coins. It is about catching a criminal who is stealing $600 million worth of assets from the unsuspecting customers.

Are you sure he is?

Also - don't compare Japan to China (not even remotely similar and in fact the Chinese hate the Japanese more than anyone else on earth).


I am pretty sure if an exchange like BTCC tried to rip off its customers they would feel the heat of the Chinese authorities (and maybe worse they might feel the heat of the Chinese mafia).

I hope you are aware that China has a record of capital punishment for those caught out stealing a lot (it is actually one of the few countries in the world that punishes "white collar crime" with death sentences).

Your precious European or even American justice systems are not going to hand out death penalties for ripping off people are they?

So basically by your own logic you are safer to have invested your funds in a Chinese exchange rather than a western one (the western one will never face a capital punishment crime so can get away with stealing your money without fearing for their lives).

very good point. I said that 2 years ago too . :)

yes, nobody is saying a word because it benefits. the BTC media belongs to them (same shareholders as exchangers) and the  new stupid "investors" are attracted by having these huge price fluctuations. The whole BTC market is manipulated by the big exchangers. Look to their buying/selling prices. How is it possible that all of them has almost the same prices?! :)

They are supposed to be independent and the sell/buy price should reflected the clients` orders....

Fake volumes, fake transactions so that everythings appears as being BIG. Instead is a big shit :)
almost nobody is using BTC in real life. the whole BTC (over 90%) is from black market like ponzies, so called forex, buying/selling illegal things. fake IDs, stolen credit card infos and so on.... :)

Again - there is no regulation on *any BTC exchanges*. So why are you just picking on the Chinese ones?

I have also pointed out that just because you have zero fees doesn't mean that you can easily "fake volume" due to the order matching risk.

If you guys would like to present a logical, well thought out answer to these things please do (but I am pretty sure that isn't likely to happen).

If you are a new investor on an exchange then what would "piss you off" is if your bid is not matched to an order (when you can see it clearly should be). The other thing that is going to "piss you off" is if you can't remove your funds (either in BTC or in fiat) from the exchange. These are about the only things that are going to matter to you as an investor (whether or not other people think that the volume is "faked" is of zero interest to an investor).

It's not only about Chinese exchangers. All the exchangers are doing the same (Bitstamp, Bitfinex, Kraken, BTC-e and so on). Fake volumes, fake transactions.

Fake volumes = manipulated market. you should be very interested about that if you are a BTC player.

Take a look here : http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/currency/USD.html

How is is possible in a so called decentralized market to have almost the same price?

So now that we know that the "investors" don't care about the "supposed faked volume" the question becomes then - "who does"?.

I will put forward that the only people who care about that are the exchanges that don't have zero trading fees (or the people that they might hire to say so).

It is in their interest to try and discredit the Chinese exchanges (and BTCC has actually been around longer than pretty much any other fiat exchange) because they can't compete with zero fees.

I would say - adjust your business. Just like films these days make all of their money in the first week (so they don't actually even need to make money from DVDs, etc.).

The argument that "piracy is making Hollywood broke" is a very weak one yet it seems that the western Bitcoin exchanges are wanting to try and use that same sort of argument against the zero fee Chinese exchanges.

We all know the fake volumes in some exchanges. There is no effect from these exchanges. We do not care anymore.

what you mean "There is no effect from these exchanges" ?

Of course, there is a huge impact. Many people are thinking that there are a lot of transactions and that there is a dynamic market when it is not. Those who want to put some money in this shit call BTC trading are cheated because of that.

Also, it's not in "some" exchanges. All the exchangers have fake exchanges(maybe a small volume of fake transactions has those with financial licenses because they have to be audited). But there only few exchangers with financial licenses(2-3) so the rest of them are doing whatever they want.

"You" must be very obtuse to think there is no impact. All the BTC market is manipulated but these exchangers. They can go the price up and down; depending of their interest. They make fortunes on your money. :)

I thought the Chinese exchanges didn't charge trading fees, unlike the western exchanges, so there is no financial penalty to churning out trades. The volume might be legitimate.

No, their volumes are fake.


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1253730.0

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/chinese-bitcoin-exchange-accused-faking-trade-data-1430122

just search : Bitcoin fake volumes ...and you will find a lot of information. :)

This is true though. Even if the chinese are trying to pull an MtGox on us, the other exchanges aren't Chinese and people are buying for real money, therefore that's the real value of Bitcoin.. everything else is just a conspiracy.

There are some analysis about the trading volumes in the Chinese exchanges. Some analysis claim there are robots working in those exchanges.

All the exchangers are doing the same.
Bitfinex, Bitstamp, Kraken, etc....fake volumes. that means price manipulation, market manipulation.
These guys would be in jail on a regulated market

If they are making fake transaction volume than is the price of bitcoin is just the made one by those exchangers ?
If robots are doing trading than it can be counted as real but if exchangers are making this bullshit, why don't they get punished. It will be scary to bitcoin if they are in real making fake volumes.

yes, this is what they are doing and of course and the BTC price reflects that :)

The price is made by the exchangers. ALL the exchangers are doing this shit(maybe less those with financial license because they are audited but I think it is a way to cheat that too). Fake transactions made by robots...this is what you can see on their websites.

Who can "punish" them if most of them are not regulated(no financial license)? Nobody.

That;s why I said that they would be in jail if they would do that in a regulated market.
The market manipulation is a big crime.

They may not be registered exchanges, but they can still be prosecuted for fraud in the US, and it is also illegal to run an unregistered securities exchange. Being not regulated is not a license to do whatever you want; you still can't break the law. That's why you're seeing US-based exchanges registering with regulators. It's only a matter of time before foreign-based exchanges have to register too with their local jurisdictions, and a giant scandal by one of these Chinese firms would hasten the process.

Agree with you. IN EU is the same law. You have to be financial licensed if you want to exchange or issue e-currency. The EU exchangers are breaking the laws too(those without financial license). Bitstamp is one of them.They have fake volumes too.

As I said before, there are not exchangers without fake transactions because the people won't use them.
The average clients are thinking like "if this exchanger has so many transactions, it's good.let's put some money in it "

Again, there is a HUGE volume of fake transactions. Look yourself to BTC China or Bitfinex; order after order(robot after robot) :)

Do you think Gemini has fake volume too? It is a regulated exchange in New York. Would it take the risk.

Another post about fake volume and bitcoin price,this is just make me confuse,i dont know what the effect of this fake price or volume,but i think its not matter for me and for us maybe,anything make bitcoin increase is good,thats right.

the market manipulation is not good, dude :)

that means the ones who are going the price up, they can make the price to be down...and they can. it depends on their interest. the whole BTC market is manipulated by the big players as I said before. who are these players? few big exchangers and the miners. who are behind them? SAME "investors", same people.  Make your researches and don't be fooled by the BTC media who are buzzing all day long that BTC is a god.

BTC media like Coindesk is owned by(YES), the same people who are owning Bitstamp or Bitfinex or Okcoin and others :)

everybody from this industry wants to earn money. nobody is working voluntary. when it's about money, the interests are coming.

Better think before posting,Chinise exchanges are only one what  take care of btc network
Now thanks to one of them btc has new nodes,number of btc nodes were  decreasing.
Read first post  after

Thay will be on all continents

http://www.coindesk.com/press-releases/btcc-deploys-100-full-bitcoin-nodes-across-five-continents/ (http://www.coindesk.com/press-releases/btcc-deploys-100-full-bitcoin-nodes-across-five-continents/)

it's a good thing that they have added a good bunch of nodes. but all nodes are hosted on 1 single service instead of spreaded around the world to make the nodes widely spreaded. that's not really on all continents.

so,why are you said that chinese BTC traffic is completely false?can you give me more concrete proof?and also i think its not important to me if they true cheat us about bitcoin price,because i know my country bitcoin market based on china bitcoin traffic.

If you search the forum/internet, you will find many examples and evidence of the robots trading.

China has the most volume of bitcoin, so it is normal for chinese exchanges to have the largest volume of bitcoin, there are lots of automated bots which do trade 24/7

The blockchain are there for anyone to see or investigate such thing right?
that is one big public ledger we have there..

finance "real" wall street however is not a big scam? Yet it continues for 100 years

Remember that the China gov has banned all the financial companies to deal with transactions related with BTC. So, all the banks from China are banned to deal with exchangers or persons who wants to buy/sell BTC.

Is it not odd that China has the biggest volume? Also, is it not odd that OKCoin is the bigger exchanger when it's was proved(search on internet "Okcoin fake transactions") that OKCoin has fake transactions?
Of course, all the big exchangers have fake transactions. There is no doubt.

There will be no Bitcoin without these fake transactions. The people will not use an exchangers who has 100 transactions per day. It's a fact that too. They want to see millions transactions even they are fake. :)

There will be no new "investors" to put money in this game if an exchanger won't show them "hey, we have millions of transactions, look!". Anyway, these investors won't see any money back. It's an illusion.
Look to Coinbase. Do you think that this company survives with the fees they get from each transaction?

They have tens of people hired as staff all over USA; I think you can calculate how much is a decent salary in USA + taxes and so on. Remember,  that a good IT guy doesn't earn 3000 usd but much more.

Then it's coming the compliance dept(a lot of costs here too), rents for all the offices from USA where they have financial license, then lawyers (you cannot run a financial company with them), money for lobby, advertising, etc (many, many expenses).... They cannot cover them from what the company earns.

Also, the financial license costs A LOT(millions) per year. Coinbase survives because they find investors to pump up with money.Otherwise, they would be bankrupted.

I was under the impression that the majority of BTC goes through the Chinese and they are the largest percentage of holders.  Maybe it is possible that they have these kind of  numbers rather than it being rigged?  It seems whenever something goes on with China markets Bitcoin moves and moves quite a bit.  I was assuming this is natural.

The stuff happening on the Chinese markets may be pretty crazy but I've never read about anyone who couldn't withdraw from them when they wanted to. I guess there's manipulation going on but the coins going in and coming out look real enough.

Chinese stock market is on crisis, many big speculator short on this market and in europe market and in usa market because all market is full of money and is normal moment: now comes worse...

I think the world stock market was in trouble. It is not just the Chinese stock market. The first week is the worst for at least 10 years.

The volume of the Chinese exchange compared to the number of bitcoins within the exchange is too high, it indicates volume rigging.

indeed. what's strange is that nobody is taking action against this thing. it's a clear way of market manipulation but the whole BTC media is keeping the mouth shut.

i don't think that Ok coin, Huobi itself is cheating in the bitcoin price. but more likely users in their site is cheating the bitcoin price using allied. Huobi cannot legitimately control the price of bitcoin otherwise would probably seized by the chinese government. ::)

I think volume increasing trading robots are controlled by the exchanges themselves. Otherwise they will be banned.

of course, the exchangers are manipulating the market. it's impossible to have such volumes and it was proved that the volumes are fake. some of them admitted.
Without fake volumes, the whole market will be like a desert. :) not so many orders.

The customers are attracted by "volumes". They are thinking that X or Y exchanger is big because he is seeing many transactions(many clients) but most them are fake.


https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMarkets/comments/3r2xr1/bobby_lee_from_btcc_confirms_fake_volume_on/

BTCC has lower volume than Huobi and OKCoin, but it still has fake volumes. So OK and Huobi have a lot more.

All of them have fake volumes. the worst point is that the fake volumes are over 80% from their business.

i don't know what are you saying true or not but seems chinese is the biggest country that use bitcoin in the world and bitcoin price in OKCoin or Huobi always be more higher than other exchange

is it not odd that in a country(China) where banks are banned(the Chinese gov did it) to deal with BTC exchangers or with persons who are trading Bitcoin, there is the biggest volume of transactions? :)

You can transfer money to exchanges in Chinese directly a few months ago. But that has nothing to do with the volume. The volume is very high all the time.

because all the exchangers are using bots who are trading all the time.

Thay are keeping bitcoin alive,without them will be no bitcoin already
One of them has developed 100 btc nodes
Only chinise see btc potenciality

it's something artificially. It's a fake market. You cannot keep a market alive in a such way. I am not talking about nodes but about fake transactions.
Be sure that BTC China has developed xx nodes NOT because he cares about you. They did it because they care about their business.

BTCC developed 100 bitcoin nodes. But that is mainly to relay the blocks found its pool. So it is not as it seems.

very good point.  :)