Bitcoin Forum

I'm curious now what they called the bitcoin from illegal activities. I know it but just forgot the term they called it.  Just like the bitcoin from alphabay and other sites from tor. I wanna know how they make it become clean bitcoin except using mixers. Maybe there is a wallet now that will make it a fresh bitcoin without the stain from illegal activities. Or it still the mixers they used?

Bitcoins used in illegal activities are called "tainted coins". As far as I know there is no way to 'clean' tainted coins other than mix it.
There never be any other service where you will be able to exchange 'tainted coins' for 'fresh coins'. Tainted coins will be tainted forever.

there is no other way other than mixing, it is what it was done with the siezed coins from us marshal office in 2014

Buying "untainted coins"? Or in other words, unused, "freshly" mined coins

While some people have tried to use the word "tainted" to describe transactions that have occurred in relation to various activities that any individual might consider illegal or immoral, since bitcoin isn't under the control of any specific legal jurisdiction it is nearly impossible to determine which (if any) bitcoins actually are or are not "tainted".

Bitcoins are a fungible commodity and as such any 1 bitcoin or portion of a bitcoin is functionally equivalent to any other.  People who are concerned that their transactions might be tracked have been known to use "mixers" or "shared send transactions" to make it more difficult to track where the bitcoins "came from" or where they "went to".  It is difficult to know if any particular service is actually doing a good job of hiding activity, and entirely possible that some services are being run by government agencies so that they can secretly maintain a database of the source and destination of each "mixed" quantity.

Mixing is only to hide the transaction, there will be no thing like clean, white, black, tainted bitcoin like you have with other paper money. Nobody can find out the source of your bitcoin. So whatever type of bitcoin you have you can exchange it or use it without restriction.

Just curious OP, how many Bitcoins did you steal? The quantity will determine how you go about washing them.

I think it is unlikely because taint is not proof of ownership.

Imagine the following scenario:

Alice sells 1 BTC worth of cocaine to an undercover DEA agent and
then sends that 1 BTC to Bob for a loan.

Bob tries to sell the 1 BTC to coinbase and cash it out.

DEA agents show up at Bob's house.

Bob says: "But that Bitcoin came from Alice!  I never sold any cocaine!"

How does the DEA know whether the Bitcoin (which has 100% taint)
came from a third party or was simply passed from one address to
another?  (They can't).

future solution
make silk road only use 'dash' (darkcoin)
then let the druggies play with dash coins illegally and then swap for clean bitcoins. that way bitcoin doesnt touch silkroad directly

That would make 'dash' less valuable (and likely much more volatile) than Bitcoin.

Who would "make" them use a particular coin?

well what do you think dash was invented for..
the whole point of dash's extra anonymity features was to be used for the dark market.. so let them play with the dark market and sever bitcoins tie to that stuff

I'm happy to buy any "tainted" Bitcoins at 75% of market value. Am I being stupid?

I'd think almost all coins, except freshly mines ones have been tainted by some form of illegal activity, that doesn't make those coins any less valuable.
Compare it to cash used for drugs deals, doesn't lower the value of it and you can spend it just as you would with a new printed note.

Ok, now imagine this scenario:

Alice buys 1 BTC from coinbase after confirming her identity.
Alice sends the 1 BTC through a mixer to an undercover DEA agent online to buy cocaine and supplies her mailing address.
Instead of shipping the cocaine, the DEA knocks down her door and arrests her.
She tries to claim that someone else must have ordered and paid for the cocaine to be delivered to her address to "set her up".
Since the DEA is running the mixer, they can prove that the bitcoins that were sent from her coinbase account were destined for the DEA undercover agent's address.

That's exactly what I thought. A nice new alt to ask questions how best to clean coins that he/she gained from let's say 'suspicious means'.

I've never used a mixer & I don't see the need for them if you're an honest bitcoin user?

i think, if those seized coin are stolen again(would be hilarious) they can be sent to a sidechain with zero knowledge feature, like the one of monero, and than submitted again to other subchain with the same future

this can certainly strengthen the anonimity of those coins to the point that the they will not be recognizable

Won't you get any problem with mixer? Wont you get the bitcoin in the mixer which came from illegal activity? I mean you are the one who will be tracked mistakenly?

An alternative way to get clean Bitcoin is to mine a block. :)

AFAIK, there is no wallet can do such thing. Is there?

Cash is used for lots of illegal activities too. Bitcoin has its pros and its cons, but overall it is for the good and so are its users.

The process is always irreversible. Once you have the tainted coins, they an only be used for illegal actions and will never be exchanged to the get the bitcoins that are very clean. I however do believe that with time, this whole issue of tainted coins will be done away with. These are some of the things that have made it very difficult for the bitcoin to be accepted as a legal currency in most of the countries. Doing away with them will be of great value  to the world of clean bitcoins.

It should be a non issue, something like 90% (dont quote me on that) of bank notes have some coke residue and fiat is the number one currency used for buying and selling drugs. If you could track down which notes had specifically been used you wouldnt call them tainted, This isnt and shouldnt be an issue in the bitcoin world. i cant help it if i buy something and in turn get coins that were used for illegal activities.

Since this is a purely psychological aspect, there is no way to "clean it". By mixing you would just give it to another people, who wouldn't know about it and won't ever know since it is written nowhere.

How many btc did you steal op?

What about this one?:
Mint Exchange Service for Newly Mined Coins Rebuffs Bitcoin’s Fungibility
http://cointelegraph.com/news/114806/mint-exchange-service-for-newly-mined-coins-rebuffs-bitcoins-fungibility

How can tainted coins be identified? How do we know the coins we are receiving or buying are not illegal or tainted?.Does it makes any difference if we have tainted coins?

You could consider passing your coins through multiple mixers to reduce the change that the government owns the lot of them... it will just cost you more in fees, but you will

have a better chance that these coins would be cleaned. It is not just criminals that need to mix their coins... many ordinary people might have received tainted coins for

payment for legal services rendered or for products sold. I use these mixers for that reason... you do not want to find out later that your coins was tainted and then they get

confiscated, if they get to your private keys.  :( 

If you have tainted coins, drams like this one can be possible:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3mea6b/bitpay_is_blacklisting_certain_bitcoins_rejecting

And this happens because bitcoin is not fungible.

Lack of fungability means that 2 different bitcoins are not equal to each other. For example, freshly mined 1 bitcoin is considered more valuable than already used 1 bitcoin:
http://cointelegraph.com/news/114806/mint-exchange-service-for-newly-mined-coins-rebuffs-bitcoins-fungibility

Lack of fungability, can mean also that bitcoin may never see mass market adoption, as fungability is fundamental property of money:
http://jpkoning.blogspot.co.id/2016/01/what-makes-money-special-lawyers.html

And because bitcoin is not anonymous, tracking transactions and identifying users is possible. More resources about bitcoin being not anonymous are here: http://www.bitcoinisnotanonymous.com/

well... They wont have her address. But that's beside the main point that taint isnt by itself conclusivr.

Of course they will.

She gave it to them to get the delivery.

Anyhow, I never said that taint "by itself is conclusive".  However, it can be used along with other circumstantial evidence to build a case and it can be used to refute defense claims that you might try to make.  It also might be used for probable cause when trying to acquire a search warrant.

Furthermore, it can be useful for building up a map of communications lines and interactions.  I'd be really surprised if law enforcement agencies weren't running mixers and building databases from the information they gather even if they never use any of it in court.

The US Marshalls auctioned off the dirty tainted Silk Road coins they confiscated. Those coins couldn't have got much dirtier, but they were clean after they had been auctioned off. We knew the addresses the US Marshalls stored them in, and any buyers can prove where they came from. The coins are now clean because all the buyers can say "I purchased them from the police".

It is just psychological thing. The newly mined coins can be later tainted as well if the miner did not paid the right income tax from the mining. So I dont see any difference here from any random Bitcoins, random cash bill note or money on my bank account received.

Its not a psychological thing. Fungability issue is a potentially big problem, and bitcoin core devs clearly acknowledge  this:
https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/6568

I don't think mining equipment maker currently are regulated by AML/KYC rules, so you can guess lots of money laundering activities are targeting them. They are not regulated for the same reason that AML/KYC rules does not apply to FED, who is the money creator. However, kncminer just had its swedbank account shutdown by their bank, so it seems if the fiat money is involved, it will not work well even if it crosses boarder

Besides mining company, there are alt-coin exchanges that do not require id verification, but I think it is just a matter of time for all these crypto currency hubs to be regulated. I just saw http://blockchainalliance.org/ where most of the large exchanges/wallets are cooperating to combat criminal activities, they have realized that without a clear stance on this their business will be banned by the government world wide

Why use Dash when it is documented by multiple users that sending say 1000 DASH takes several days using "DARKSEND".


This user ^ sent me a PM saying it took several days although his post here says 20 hours (I'm guessing that it was with a smaller amount of dash.) Which makes it appear that the larger the transaction, the longer it takes.



Just use Monero (XMR). Use a mixin above 10 when sending a transaction and it takes a few seconds to send.

I'm not sure I understand this, why exactly would it matter that a specific Bitcoin was at one point used in an illegal transaction? Surely people cannot be that hypocritical. I'm fairly certain most of us have at one point handled laundered money without knowing but nobody seem to care about that.

Because there is a giant database in the sky that records, forever, exactly where those Bitcoin came from and where they go. There is no such database for money you physically handle.

If satoshi could have figured out how to make Bitcoin work without everything having a public and traceable permanent record, he would have, but he couldn't. He even posted about that a few times.

@jonald_fyookball even in your original case, Bob is not going to want to touch those coins because he doesn't want the DEA coming to his door (shooting his dog, etc.) whether he is selling drugs or not. In fact, especially if he isn't. So at that point when he has to be careful where his Bitcoins come from and what they have been associated with, fungibility is already lost. Coinbase/Bitpay users are already in this situation, whether they know it or not.

You have people on this thread saying the exact same thing. They pay to mix their coins (and hope they aren't getting dirty coins back) just because they are worried about where they came from. Now you have mixed coins, or coins that come from a known-legal source, worth more than unmixed unknown-source coins. That's also not fungible.

Ok fine but that still doesn't explain why people should care where the Bitcoin has been. I mean you've got a clear conscience, you haven't done anything illegal so what's the problem? I'm even reading comments where people are suggesting that a 'used' Bitcoin could be viewed as being worth less than a freshly mined one. Like what??  ???

I 100% don't care what you did with your Bitcoin.

Other people care. I may or may not care that they care. For example, if I hypothetically have a Coinbase account and hypothetically find it useful and don't want it to get closed, nor have reports filed with the government over my "suspicious activity" then I hypothetically might try to avoid Bitcoin that have been involved with so-called "bad" activities (or sending Bitcoin to people likely to do so).


It absolutely is worth less, if people are willing to pay to mix it or pay more to exchange for "clean" coins, or pay a premium to buy miners with it that have a virtually guaranteed negative ROI. It doesn't even matter what their reason is. As long as that's the market, then that's the market.

"Pecunia non olet"
As Latin said, Money don't Smell!

after a mixing all money are "good". the same with fiat cash, we can give money/accept money, from the baddiest business, but it's not our fault, a lot of cash is marked with blood.

I get what you're saying, I just think it would be pretty shitty/unfortunate if Bitcoin heads down that path. I understand that people are free to decide that this Bitcoin is worth more to them than the identical one next to it but somehow it just feels wrong. Maybe that's just me.

I agree with the sentiment. The issue is that this Bitcoin is not in a literal sense identical to the one next to it (usually). Each has a unique history. We can all agree to a social convention where we ignore that history and treat all Bitcoins alike. That would be great, but the way things seem to be going right now (companies selling chain analysis services, blockchain-based risk scoring, Coinbase and Bitpay taking actions based on blockchain analysis, etc.), it seems pretty darn unlikely. As long as there are some people who don't agree to this convention, the rest of us have to deal with the consequences of it. Unless we improve the technology, of course.

don't be a pessimist.

I say all Bitcoins are fungible in practice until proven otherwise.

I am not an expert but maybe mixers like the service I am doing publicity may clean the tainted coins. They pretend to clean all the possible tracks of a send of the coins from them and after the use of their service. They explain everything in their site. As I told in the beginning I am not an expert to be able to judge if they are able to do such things and even if are really able to clean everything has to do with the previous activity of every coin. So my post can be made only as am info post. who think to be able to do this is free to try clicking on my signature.

The whole concept of tainted coins is just asinine to me, and other users have correctly pointed out that we have the same phenomenon with cash--and it bothers us not in the least that the fiat in our pocket has most likely been used to buy drugs or has been stuffed down a stripper's thong.  The same standard should apply for bitcoin.  As for me, I don't know or care where my particular coins came from.

All this talk about tainted coins is just so that the mixing services can make some money.  :)

How do you hide the Ransomware authors BTC they make ? (325 million a year estimated)
Where do you think it's spent ?

in fact many people and investors who use bitcoin not because the only transactions quick and easy in use, but because it is very difficult to keep track of users bitcoin address wallet he used, according to the experience I have gained bitcoin labeled illegal because of it, it can make transactions black becomes undetectable

Ur English is pathetic but where is Frankie and Bruce Fenton?

Stop making ur ghey threads Bruce n Frankie and Co u LOST!!!!!!

And this is not a fleeting victory this is the Victory!!!!!!!

Bear in mind that while these coins are technically used for illegal activity, most ransomware victims have nothing to do with each other, nor engage in repeated transactions (somewhat different from say DNM drug buyers and sellers, gamblers, etc.) which makes the coins themselves are relatively clean from the perspective of blockchain analysis. I would not be surprised if those coins were used to fund the "clean coins" that come out of mixers run by the same ransomware operators. But that is just a guess.

It is already proven otherwise. People get hassled for using some Bitcoins and not others with, for example, Coinbase, and apparently Bitpay merchants too. That makes them non-fungible (meaning interchangeable) to some degree at a minimum.

There are also multiple well-funded startups developing and selling blockchain analysis and risk scoring for compliance purposes. Presumably they have, or plan to have, customers using those services. The very existence of these services (assuming some usage of them) means the coins are not fungible because they will have different scores.

Long term these businesses may all fail and no one may care about such things, but that is not the case today.

Maybe you could say it to bitcoin core devs, so that they stop worrying about fungibility of bitcon:
https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/6568

or to Adam Back so that he can change his lectures and interviews:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dAdI3Gzodo
https://www.weusecoins.com/adam-back-confidential-transactions/

or to Andreas Antonopoulos so that he stops spreading fear about possible problems related to fungability in bitcoin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak1iojpiHpM&feature=youtu.be&t=33m6s

And I respect your opinion and wish it were that way too but... It doesn't matter what you think as the possibility of others choosing to see certain coins as tainted is out of your control as well as out my control.

This is why Bitcoin should have built in technology similar to monero, but I highly doubt this will ever happen.

Sounds like Bitcoin could have removed the need for those services if it had incorporated cryptonote tech at the protocol level.

One more reason why it will never get implemented into Bitcoin because of the pushback of these businesses that is their bread and butter.

Coins are never tainted, but some people are.

Statements like these sound religious in the crypto world.

So why would blockchain info provide a coin taint measure, e.g.,
https://blockchain.info/taint/1GiL2nCUAogLpa6ALg3x59f61aNv363m8i?reversed=true

see this is what I always thought.

Sometimes I see posts that differ and act like "clean coins" will be worth so much more
but who really cares?

how can you determine whether or not the coins are tainted?  I am assuming there is not a big flag on them that says, hey I am a tainted coin!! lol.  I am seriously interested how you can tell if they are tainted or how you can verify whether or not they are tainted.

There is no any "flag" on bitcoins. But because all bitcoin transactions are traceable and public, blockchain analysis and forensic companies are starting to pop up. Just one example:
http://uk.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-elliptic-startup-anti-money-laundering-tool-get-banks-interested-cryptocurrency-2015-6?r=US&IR=T

These companies aim at identifying "bad" bitcoins so that merchants can avoid them and law enforcement track.

Because the definition of illegal differs from country to country, exchanges/merchants do not follow the law in another country, so unless there is an international definition of illegal (I guess there might never be due to conflict of interest), once some coin goes to another country it is legal again

Imagine that you hacked Soros' bank account and stole millions and bought bitcoin with them, you are a criminal in US law, but that is exactly those east Asian countries (maybe even Bank of England or some Swedish banks) want to do to him, so you are a hero there  ;D

And another one...... http://coinalytics.co/
and yes there are more
and the point being companies will/are using them

I bet it is repeated activity from the Malware pushers..
They lure in victims then have a pipeline to the same routes to launder their proceeds.
The same went on for ages in the hacker scene with Rootkit Botnet op's run by Russian underground organized crime.
I have a source code package for Zuess which was traded underground on Russian forums..
they were selling for around 10 grand i heard.. it was of course Antivirus undetectable.
Looking at the c++ code i was impressed.. good god was this a massive project.
Those guys simply switched to targeting users with Bitcoin Ransomware
And who better to target than the guys who already have bitcoin LOL

Anyway funny how smooth posts twice and smoothie posts twice at the same time.. again.
Do you two simply have an alert system to jump on topics together or what ?

So, what is the difference between fresh bitcoin without the stain from illegal activities with bitcoin that has been used for illegal activities? whether fresh bitcoin sooner or profitable...

Blacklist still.  hor=yoona link=topic=1316088.msg13473198#msg13473198 date=1452158079]
So, what is the difference between fresh bitcoin without the stain from illegal activities with bitcoin that has been used for illegal activities? whether fresh bitcoin sooner or profitable...
[/quote]

Blacklists. If you transact with bitcoins tainted with illegal activities,  you may one day be in this situation as below.

http://reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3mea6b/bitpay_is_blacklisting_certain_bitcoins_rejecting

Blacklists. If you transact with bitcoins tainted with illegal activities,  you may one day be in this situation as below.

http://reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3mea6b/bitpay_is_blacklisting_certain_bitcoins_rejecting

[/quote]

Fuck you bitpay!  Fuck you and die.

You don't need to use those presumably expensive companies to find out about someone. This service is free:

https://blockchain.info/taint/your-address

And the service it gives is more than enough for most people. Now, who has ever used it? I've checked my address to see what it looked like, but I haven't checked any other.

in my country ever happened squeeze in a mall, an IT student extortion by threatening to blow up the mall,
The ransom is 100 BTC or mall will be in explosion LOL
http://metro.sindonews.com/read/1057673/170/pengebom-mall-alam-sutera-pemeras-pertama-yang-gunakan-bitcoin-1446226387

yes, ppl always find ways to clean Bitcoin. Comparing with fiat, bitcoin is a perfect money to cater the needs of criminals. It is sent and received without phisical meetup. The days criminals asked ransom to be sent to Switzerland Bank or put in the bins of some corners had gone.

bitcoin significantly is not illegal. which makes it illegal is how to use it.

And all this makes bad press and reputation for Bitcoin. Maybe if criminals learned that bitcoin is not that anonymous, that could reduce its use for illegal activites. They should read bitcoin.org or check what bitcoin core devs say about Bitcoin's anonymity and privacy. For example:

Jeff Garzik:
 > its pretty blib and dumb to do a lot of illegal transactions on bitcoin when it's so easily traceable [4:33]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p9M1IU2k50

Greg Maxwell:

> Bitcoin uses pseudonymity. [It is] fragile at best. Paying someone usually leaks your identity and finiancial information [37:20]
> This lack of privacy is often cited as a concern by many parties [38:05]
https://youtu.be/9pyVvq-vrrM?list=LLXpTGsw6ZxgMpQB8vQC60BQ&t=2107

The same goes for stupid jurnalists who always write that bitcoin is anonymous, when it is not. they can be bother to read even bitcoin.org, before their stupid stories.

Much more at http://www.bitcoinisnotanonymous.com/

haha evolution of new forms of crime, ransom with bitcoin
swiss bank is not interesting anymore, bitcoin is considered more secure and safer for criminals
how do we resolve this?

Just more case for press to write how Bitcoin is primarily used by criminals. This is exactly what Bitcoin needs to appeal to general population \s.

Shadowcash has a feature where you can send your private coins to any public sdc address, now your coins will appear on the blockchain as new freshly minted coins just like the mined ones with absolutely no transaction history.

https://i.imgur.com/qG6Ures.png (https://twitter.com/XMRpromotions/status/664123851299667968)

Im just confused. Why? can government trace if the coins are tainted or not? Bitcoin is anonymous right, so why bothered if its tainted or not?

If you can trust these 3rd parties to not give up that info, then sure go ahead and use these centralized services.

Unfortunately bitcoin is not anonymous. Please read bitcoin.org!
https://bitcoin.org/en/you-need-to-know

https://bitcoin.org/en/faq#is-bitcoin-anonymous

More resources on this topic can be found here: http://www.bitcoinisnotanonymous.com/

Bitcoin is not the problem, the people that is use bitcoin are the problem.  :( :( :(

What info?  The IP of your TOR exit node?

I'm pretty sure Peter Todd knows what he's doing, and took that risk into account.

If it meant life in jail then I dont think I would want to take "that risk".  

I don't remember anyone mentioning "life in jail."  Most illegal activities (especially those involving Bitcoiin) carry much less harsh penalties.

Are you just using the most extreme hypothetical example possible because you got caught making an otherwise embarrassingly weak point?

Do you plan to justify your assertion that Shapeshift and XMR.to's knowing your TOR exit node's IP represents anything more than a theoretical risk, or just continue trying to scare us by parading around the hobgoblin of "life in jail?"

Not to mention those SCAAARY centralized services may have .onion or i2p sites, so exit nodes would not be needed.   ;)

How exactly does this technique make it more private? Ok so he's not buying Bitcoin directly from a regular exchange but he's still receiving it to a BTC address of his choice. Wouldn't it be possible to still link the transaction to him same as if he'd bought it from a regular exchange? I've never been interested to learn about mixers or other anonymization techniques so I could be missing something here.

Okay change "life in jail" to "anytime in jail".

The whole fucking point of bitcoin and especially any anon currency is to not have to trust 3rd parties for your transactions.  So keep pushing your scam coin down everyone's throat if you feel the need.  Maybe one day Monero might have a use but as it stands today you might as well just use bitcoin.

Gee, who should I believe, Peter Todd (https://github.com/petertodd), or some random n000b that needs to exaggerate because his points are so weak.   ::)

Do you plan to justify your assertion that Shapeshift and XMR.to's knowing your TOR exit node's IP represents anything more than a theoretical risk, or just continue trying to scare us by parading around the hobgoblin of "life time in jail?"

This is a revolution; if you are scared of doing anything more than licking jackboots, we don't need you.

Jackboot licking piqued my interest, sorry.

It is a risk and tor isn't exactly 100% anonymous so keep peddling that crap and see how well that works out.  And let me say this one more time because you seemed to skip over the point I made.  "The whole fucking point of bitcoin and especially any anon currency is to not have to trust 3rd parties for your transactions."

Do you think i would trust you over myself?  I would rather not rely on anybody but myself when it comes down to doing anything that might land me in jail. 

Everything is risky.  You could get hit by a bus while crossing the street.  It's about evaluating the risk/reward ratio, not being paralyzed by fear.

Excuse me if I defer to Peter Todd's demonstrated expertise and ignore your cowardly sniveling.  Enjoy living on your knees, kissing the jackboots as required.

Besides, you don't have to (and shouldn't) send all your coins to any untrusted 3rd party at the same time.

There are best practices known to minimize counterparty risk, such as splitting the tx up and/or using multiple exchanges (especially ones with native .onion/i2p sites).

Someday we may have trustless, decentralized exchanges.  Until then, we go to war with the tech we have, not the tech we wish for.

Lol what.  Fuck you, you cant win this argument so all you got is personal insults.  And where did i say send all your coins, in any case you only have to send 1 coin to taint your address, dickhead. 

All you have done is prove how shit Monero is at what its supposed to be trying to do.  And don't even bother trying to come back at me with... but but Peter Todd and calling me a noob if that's all you got. 

The personal insults are just for fun.  Thanks for letting me know they're pissing you off.   :-* :-* :-*

But I don't need them to reiterate the point Peter Todd made about XMR's usefulness in enhancing Bitcoin privacy.


https://i.imgur.com/qG6Ures.png (https://twitter.com/XMRpromotions/status/664123851299667968)

Monero is not "shit...at what its supposed to be trying to do."

Cite: https://downloads.getmonero.org/whitepaper_review.pdf

Do you even math bro?   ;D

Ohh lookie, I found another one of his tweets.

https://i.imgur.com/APiIZFX.png

Nice job cropping out the date on that ancient tweet, so the timeline vs the (much more recent) one I posted isn't immediately clear.

Could you be any more dishonest and pissed off about being demolished in an argument?

Nice threadjack BTW.  I love it when Maximalist Monopolist Supremacists go berserk when XMR naturally comes up in a discussion about Bitcoin's lack of fungibility and propensity for taint.   :)

Monerobadger don' care.

https://i.imgur.com/CfgyAes.png

inb4 50 cents=50 cents

Wow I had no idea that I was a "Maximalist Monopolist Supremacist" and where exactly did you demolish my argument?  You got nothing but personal attacks on me and a tweet from PT, so I don't see the problem in showing another one here.  I am right and it doesn't matter how you try and spin it and I had no idea that the older tweets from Peter Todd are to be disregarded, how silly of me.

Whats funny is you calling me dishonest, lol coming from you. 

Not silly at all, just dishonest.

When the same person writes about lousy code and then later writes about how the same code has been cleaned up, then yes it is pretty clear that the older comment no longer applies.

Lol I was wondering if you were going to turn up here.

How is it dishonest, I just took a screen cap of the tweet and made it the approximate size of the other one and also I didn't see the need to include all the other irrelevant stuff there as well, for example facebook likes and shares and retweets.  I would have had to include all that other meaningless crap just to include the date.  There was no intention of deceiving anyone its just a tweet for a tweet thing.  Here is the whole thing: https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc/status/507427225927708672

And you are doing the same shit as icebreaker, attack me instead of the point I have raised.  Good luck with that strategy.

You raised no meaningful point, since the older tweet you posted is clearly superseded by the newer tweet where he says the code has been cleaned up.

BTW, since you obviously didn't even bother reading the thread before you started posting obviously stupid nonsense, I didn't "turn up", I was already here discussing the Bitcoin fungibility issue, not the off-topic garbage about Monero code you posted.

You are one of the most deceitful persons on this forum and have zero credibility in my book, what off-topic garbage Monero code did I post here.  I just put a PT tweet up as a response to the other PT tweet. 

And the point I made is that none of you Monero scammers shills devs retards have addressed is: "The whole fucking point of bitcoin and especially any anon currency is to not have to trust 3rd parties for your transactions". 

If all you have is personal attacks on me then bring it on, I know your form all to well smooth.

Being a Peter Todd tweet does not make it on topic. The first tweet was about services that add to Bitcoin privacy, clearly on topic.

The (out of date) tweet you posted was about Monero code quality. That has nothing to do with Bitcoin privacy and clearly off topic.


Interesting. What does this have to do with Monero code quality, besides nothing at all?

Where have I said anything about Monero's code quality. 

TLDR: The XMR.to Bitcoins received in the last step are free of any taint accrued by the original Bitcoins sent to Shapeshift.

The XMR intermediary point makes them anonymous, because a key feature of Monero is that transactions are unlinkable.

That feature is inherited from Monero's Cryptonote protocol, which uses ring signatures and stealth addresses in a type of zero-knowledge (homomorphic) encryption.

Mixers are not zero-knowledge; they only obfuscate, always leak information, and may be unraveled given sufficient scrutiny.  They require trust; Monero does not.

You're in for a treat; start here: https://downloads.getmonero.org/whitepaper_annotated.pdf

PS

PT's technique can be perfected by transferring (with a healthy mixin) the xmr between two separate wallets you control.  That ensures your privacy even if both Shapeshift and xmr.to are compromised (or even full blown, cooperating adversaries).

TLDR: step into my van

I guess it is the same with cash. How many paper notes do we use every day that are tainted with criminal activity? Every form of money will always be used for criminal activity one way or another...

I think bitcoin is also illegal, according to the government
because there are no rules and regulations to regulate the bitcoin
That's why bitcoin illegal and banned in many countries

That's not how things work, every new invention is legal until your gov makes a law that says otherwise and not everything has to be regulated. 

I wish there was a burning feature for tainted coins in exchange with a freshly prepared coins.

Let us assume A sold cocaine(from a fake address) to B(an Undercover agent) for BTC. Now after B pays him, A then transfers the coins to a so-called "furnace wallet" where those tainted coins gets burned for a freshly generated coins in lieu of some transaction fees. And the whole process of burning and generating is to be done by miners for some extra subsidy. So that even if A cashes out the daughter coins, B will never be able to identify him in any way. Neither will he be able to perform taint analysis (https://blockchain.info/taint) anymore ;)

But this feature is a tough one to implement.

If there is no rule about that bitcoin illegal is I think is just legal.
For me bitcoin is always have been legal is just how use it what he said.

If you do it illegal things than you are not that always save. So just do bitcoin for legal things.

In my view, is the activity that is tainted, not the coins. Lets say something receives X ammount of BTC for selling drugs. Then he pays X ammount to buy a tablet in a site accepting Bitcoin. Part of the coins are now in the hands of the merchant who sold the tablet.... how can that money be considered "tainted"? He obtained it lawfully.

Yes, but this works for fiat money, as there is law that says that with each transaction, cash looses its history. Thus cash is fungibile. For bitcoin, there is no such law.
http://jpkoning.blogspot.co.id/2016/01/what-makes-money-special-lawyers.html



And even if there was, where would it be? usa only? what about all other countries? Its a lot of problems. So merchants may prefere to avoid tainted coins and work with blockchain analytics companies. For example, it seems bitpay is already doing exactly this by working with chainalysis company and actively rejecting tainted coins:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4012hu/bitpay_is_actively_cooperating_with_chainalysis/

which explains this previous post:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3mea6b/bitpay_is_blacklisting_certain_bitcoins_rejecting

Bitcoin no longer has that many illegal practices as of now. If we were to focus on more routes of making sure money laundering is no longer happening within Bitcoin, we would be fine in terms of having a better reputation for Bitcoin. Bitcoin will indeed be the future of money if we just focus on making it better.

Franky, do you have any sort of reference for this?  And I'm not challenging you, I'm just curious and I've never used anything on the dark market myself.  I'm curious but not that curious, so I don't know who takes Dash there.  If anyone.  Seems like it would be a good coin to buy illegal stuff with, and I know it was originally called Darkcoin.

There are reports of some darknet markets adopting dash/darkcoin, e.g.,
http://www.tripwire.com/state-of-security/latest-security-news/silk-road-reloaded-adopts-i2p-anonymous-network-and-darkcoins/

But in minority. Most darknet is using Bitcoin, and no one is going to change this anytime soon. One reason is  that there is entire market there for "cleaning" the bitcoins using mixers, or what not. Non of these services will allow real anon coins to take over, as they will lose their "small fees" for the cleaning. Second reason is that Bitcoins are easier to buy and sell with cash, without any exchanges. You can only get anon coins on exchanges.

Didn't the FBI auction a massive amount of coins from the Silk Road bust?
Those must've been as tainted as they could be, but does the auctioning provide some sort of provenance which 'washes' the coins?

Its tricky questions. I think they were "officially cleaned" by the fact that they were put on action by FBI. But then this would only be valid in USA. Thus ppl and exchanges using these coins in EU, Australia or whatever, could still find them as dirty. USA law does not apply outside USA.

Bitcoin is just always going to have illegal activity available. It's really really hard to do certain things with Bitcoin because of the reputation. I keep trying to get random people like friends and whatnot to try it but they just don't care.

They can trace that if the bitcoins were not mixed and washed properly. You can do it by sending different amount of bitcoins to multiple addresses and mixing it again with new coins.

Bitcoin is always connected to illegal activities.Cause of its anonymous transactions and wireless transactions.Bitcoin are use to buy drugs online buy weapons and to some pornsites.Bitcoins can be use in all illegal activities online thats why bitcoin from illegal activities.Because bad people benefits of its features.

Porn sites (assuming they follow some basic rules on age of talent, etc.) are not illegal, at least not everywhere.

It is a good example though, of something that is often legal but still considered high risk and can cause problems with regulated entities, and also something that many people want to do but not be identified as doing.

Bitcoin is illegal in differen countries just cause of this illgeal activities and also cause banking system can't controll, also with mixers is unreal to find a criminals and other bad guys.

Bitcoin are begin used for illegal activities like buy guns etc which its not good for the BTC future

Its used for criminal activities but what many people already said is that every currency is and I think we cannot stop this.
The fact is that its maybe easy with the bitcoin but with other currency's it can also be done easily because it also a sort of untraceable who is behind it.

Well it should not be that way. Half inteligent crimals should know that bitcoin is NOT anonymous, and how to make their btc transactions less tracable.

It is much logical to say that because block chain can be tracable and all their transactions as well maybe some criminals is more knowledgeable than us as they use bitcoin to hide their activities, and most of them are working it behind and everything is on plan accordingly, they can do multiple and lots of exchange transaction from one hash to another to hide the transaction and even harder to know where its coming and to go.

well Bitcoins from the very start, i saw it can be use for legal and illegal activities.
since this is very convenient,safe, secure and unknown identity it will be easy for a bad people to use this
for illegal transactions activities. :)

Yes many bad people taking advantage for that unknown identity or we usually called "being anonymous". Bitcoin is being use as a main currency in deep web to do transactions like buying drugs,illegal firearms and other stuff. So it's resulting for the bitcoin to get a bad image :(

i dont think that bitcoin should be blame for illegal activities. i think illegal activities are in progress i  think in all kind of currency. then why should we blame only bitcoin. i think we should not blame bitcoin for illegal activities.

It doesn't matter whether or not Bitcoin is used for illegal activities, the United States Dollar, the Euro, gold, silver, all other kinds of currencies are also used in illegal activities and no-one else has an issue with that. It should be no more different for Bitcoin. If someone uses Bitcoin for illegal activities, yes, it is an issue and there should more than likely be consequences, but it should be no more severely punished than if someone was using the Dollar or Euro.

Tainted coins is what they call it as far as I know.

That's true, Anonymity is one of a most important reason why bitcoin is always connected to illegal activities, Maybe anonymity it's made for secure their user but has been widely misused for now.

I think they are all going to be considered the same but the source is what needs to be traced before they were "tainted". I don't think the coins would be called tainted after they are unloaded by the source.

Cash is also used for plenty of illegal activities to, but its for the same reason as Cash provides some anonymity what's your point?

Cash is anon. and also does help with illegal activities.

i agree that bitcoin is not really anonymous even criminal use mixer there some way to trace it if they will not think of it seriously
but if you will think about it bitcoin is much better to use than those centralized currency even if your not criminal

No, tainted coins are btc addresses written on a maxi pad and worn while jogging.

Well, bitcoins are definitely used for illegal activities. Especially on the dark web, dealing with drugs, guns, hitman services and stuff like that. Another example would be the British pedo who used BTC as payment.

But bitcoin is not solely used for illegal activities. A lot of people use it for legit purposes.

Bitcoins has all the features to used for illegal activities. I wonder if the world Big terrorists invest in bitcoin, the value of bitcoins will rise to a next level. Bitcoins does not disclose the identity of a person and this is the one thing which is required for all illegal activities.

i know that we all knew that Bitcoins can be use for a legal and illegal ways of activities.
example: bad politicians can use it for illegal transaction . ;)

does anyone of you know (even) just one person who has been arrested or had some troubles with the cops after trading bitcoin whatsoever? Everyone who let's himself get paid in btc, buys btc,... that are not freshly mined, will have an x% chance that those bitcoins have been 'used' for other purposes in the past. But except in the case that you can 'prove' which addresses belong to who (which is really not that hard to take in account if you were to use them of 'other' purposes), I'm not quiet sure what anyone can do against you just 'trading' or 'sending' btc. Don't think you are completely anonymous but if you think a bit about where you get, and where you send your btc, there won't be much ppl that can retrace it back to you, let alone prove what you might have bought with them...