Bitcoin Forum

With online trading there is always a scam risk for both seller and buyer. Even with using escrow you can get scammed by escrow provider. What about using Paypal?

With Paypal seller can send online invoice

https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/email-invoice

If I understand PayPal's fees correctly, accepting payment  in international sales, when seller is in U.S. costs 3.9% + Fixed Fee** (e.g. €0.35 EUR in euro payments). International sales in eurozone cost 3.4% + €0.35 EUR.

Of course this is a bit pricey, but Paypal has protection for both seller and buyer

https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/paypal-safety-and-security

and  for buyer Refunded Returns service

Disclaimer: I have not sold anything via PayPal and I don't work for PayPal

If I would buy or sell something, I would suggest splitting the PayPal fee.

I think it is better to pay 3.9% or less to PayPal than get scammed.

I don't think this is the right community for you.

Paypal TOS offers no guarantee with digital goods.
Even with an invoice, you can still claim you were hacked.
Paypal has some uses but it's crap for the digital world.
This has been covered many times in the past, perhaps a little poking around could have saved you the bother of a new thread.

I'm just curious, what is the problem if you buy hardware with paypal? How can you get scammed?

Of course I understand that with digital goods (like buying bitcoin) it does not provide protection.

Could you please elaborate?

What is the problem?

side from the issue with digital goods, Paypal doesn't offer any level of anonymity. bitcoin is also an investment, Your paypal wallet isnt

It is a BITCOIN FORUM, so if you dont believe in the project its probably not the place for you.

Ok I understand that view. But I honestly believe in bitcoin, but when I use my hard earned money to buy something from stranger online, I prefer security. I don't think that we should embrace fundamental views. Why can't we use each tool for the purpose that it does best? Bitcoin is good for many things, but online buying  from strangers is not one of them.

a legit seller feels the same way, escrow can be used although is not always secure for either the buyer or seller. unfortunately, there are many scammers out there.

if paypal were fair, and treat the seller with respect , a lot sellers will still use it.  I sell cell phones unlock codes, and have been scammed multiple times from buyers, claiming the code never worked even after showing 100% proof that it did..

you're barking at at the wrong tree here. all i can said is to be cautious dealing with sellers/buyers.

As with many things it can be useful for the right type of transaction for the buyer and seller.. I frankly sell the large majority of my hardware settled via Paypal transactions, it provides an excellent opportunity to deliver hardware to customers that otherwise may not be comfortable purchasing. Also some of my largest Paypal transactions includes large miners, although the reasoning is generally because they like to hold BTC.

paypal mostly used however always with risk while btc 100% NON refundable

so many people preferred to use and accept coins payments instead of paypal

Because there are more pleasant ways to be fucked up the ass. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=14632.0;all)

To be honest, Paypal tends to favor the buyer over the seller.  I've never done it, but I do know that scamming Paypal isn't that hard.  A buyer can pull a chargeback and get their money back even when the seller is honest.

On top of that, there are Paypal's account policies you have to abide by to use the service.  This is not entirely a bad thing by any means, but I did once have the funds in my account literally locked from me for several weeks.  Admittedly, with Bitcoin, so long as you are the only one with access to the private keys, the coins are yours.  No one can lock them from you.  :)

This all being said, if you find that you prefer Paypal as a payment method, there's nothing wrong with that.  There are markets for you to trade with Paypal for goods as well.  This particular market may be a bit more orientated towards Bitcoins, though...  ;)

There is an escrow list of highly trusted users on this forum here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=855778.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=855778.0)

In my honest opinion offer both BTC and Paypal if you sell items. Also allow the usage of an escrow from said list.

Personally OgNasty has escrowed more than $1k for myself and many millions for the rest of the community.

Paypal is just a no go as everyone else has said unless you are a good standing member of the community.

Here is how to SCAM using PayPal for virtual and phisical goods, a
 buyer can simply say IT'S NOT WORKING! Or never recived
And if you still think none can scam using PayPal try to sell some bitcoins , good luck

paypal offers no security , now stop trolling please.
if u really cant understand the risks of using paypal, and the advantages using bitcoin, than yes, this forum is too hard for you to really understand it

First of all, to other repliers, don't react agressively. No need, we don't want to scare polite people like this user away from crypto.

Paypal is a fraud lol. I once received funds from a stranger in return for digital goods. I received the money on my paypal account and not long after I sent the funds to a friend as a payment for something I owed him. When the stranger started a dispute, (wich was scamming me, since the digital goods were sent and he was happy about it) The funds were not only refunded from my account, but also from my friends account (since his account was funded using 'fraudelent funds', so paypal said.

Now for no single reason in the world, PayPal should have had the balls to claim refunds from 2 seperate accounts, since now, there was 2x the original amount missing. So I got fucked in the ass hardcore, not only was I scammed by the stranger, but also by paypal itself. After telephonic contact, they agreed that my friends account shouldn't have been charged back.

I only advise to use paypal ever for use of ease when you have your credit card linked and want to purchase something from a reputable webshop, because it's litteraly only 2 clicks to pay from paypal, or to recharge your phone calling plan, or something like that.. Ebay works decently with paypal only when you know you trust the other party.

Never go through the missery of receiving funds through paypal. I had funds held for stupid long amounts of time because they were large amounts, after calling them alot they didn't even apologize for their incompetence.

Also they charge quite a lot when converting one currency to another. They calculate fee's on top of their convertion rate (wich is already a scam rate lol)

I understand that you think of the possibility of getting scammed by an escrow party, especially on this forum where even 'Legendary' accounts mean shit anymore because they can be bought from users. However there are still very reputable users here like Blazed, OgNasty, and others.. These persons have the reputation it takes to handle these kinds of money. I speak from experience myself, I have been in escrow positions for a large part of my life (not bitcoin related), and it's really not worth screwing up reputation for any amount normal users will trust you with.

Anyway, crypto is the future. I'm hoping Bitcoin and Litecoin will be adopted by many. If you haven't realised this yet, don't worry, there are about 8 billion people with you. However make sure to research it, and give it a chance, even only with tiny amounts. You will be happy that you have.

Try it and see what happens to your money. That will answer your question with a painful lesson.

Well, said Drax.

I meant to come around to elaborate what I wrote in post #2, but got caught up with other more important things.
Drax pretty much summarized all I had to say, not to forget the fee's, I often deal with items +1000 USD, then is 4% fee's very significant, not to mention the additional fee's for currency exchange. 
Further, I honestly trust this communities escrow's more that paypal, I would sleep much better knowing that my funds are are hold by a community escrow than locked up in paypal, but of cause this my personal opinion. Paypal is really only a option in my book if trading with a super trusted person, there is very few people I would accept a paypal payment from.
 

Thanks for the answers. I did not realize, that PayPal may be that bad for a seller, if buyer wants to scam.

There are many Paypal message boards on the net.  Sellers will line up to tell you how paypal is better for buyer than seller. Not sure Bitcoin forum is the place to post this.

just google for "paypal scam" and troubles ... i doubt u will ever use them again  ::)

paypal is terrible when it comes to these things. They make it really hard for the sellers.

it must be said that for buying stuff on unknown website, paypal is good enough, because it allow for your money to be protected at least, in case that website was fisky or something

Yeah you could have find the Discussion about Paypal scamming in Yahoo answer as well in last week. Many scamming are ongoing in Paypal system Especially for seller side mostly.

If bitcoin becomes a Big transaction medium for money means that would be more helpful the people in fees and transparency and Etc...

I've never had any problems with Paypal and I've been using it for more than 10 years as a freelancer. You all must be into something very shady if you think that Paypal bans accounts and doesn't take care of refund claims, etc. Now, the fees (specially international ones, I think it's 5.4%...) are completely out of this world considering that there's no limit to them, so sending $1000 would cost an arm and a leg. Also, Paypal must have a lot of income coming from the interest the funds generate while being in their hands.

If you really want to eliminate the whole paypal support thing, Just send a Paypal gift with no fees. Its almost as good as a cash/bitcoin transaction. Proceed with caution if its an expensive payment because there is a chance of a credit card chargeback. No ones going to go through the hoops of that for <$100 transactions. I had someone try to do a chargeback on a $2500 item and they had no luck doing it because I was on top of it and contacted paypal support back and forth. Paypal gift is safe to use.

paypal are scum bag thieves lol.


But yeah if your sending out an actual item like using ebay
its not that bad. Its just a pain when people file a claim and
you have to jump through hoops to get your rightful money
released

because not all people can verify paypal account,and paypal account really sensitive to hacked by bad people,i just saw some case that people lost their paypal account because hacker.

Paypal tends to be biased towards the buyer about disputes, especially on digital goods. They'd easily grant a chargeback in which they'll use the clause that 'they do not provide guarantees on digital stuff.'

It's hard to stay away from trap-buyers, that's why many don't prefer Paypal at all for trading btc.

If you go through the forum properly taking some time you can find so many threads in scam accusation, and other places with full details of Paypal Scamming . In this thread it self so many have given full details about Paypal and its TOS conditions which gives buyer full power to cheat with seller. And more in paypal you have to give your full details with identity proof.

so its upto you now to use the paypal or not after know to get the experience with the replys of this thread, or after getting scammed.

If something goes wrong due to the trap buyers, is there any option or support by which we can track the trap buyers and get rid of them

I am also using Paypal from last 5 years and did not face any kind of problem yet. Many people are facing problems with their accounts I think the reason is they do not follow rules properly. Yes I know the fees are sometimes very high but PayPal always provide safety to our funds.

Im only using paypal when its necessary.
Way too less security and shit customer support