Bitcoin Forum

when Bitcoin takes over anyone left holding fiat will get done like a dogs dinner

I agree with you. The only think that backs fiat is only people's belief that it has a value that could be used into exchanging it for something else (that was the plan when it was invented) but it's backbone is an empty space that never have been filled and BTCitcoin taking over all the monetary exchanges would certainly damage fiat as a whole.

Government power backed fiat money but that won't be here forever. We'll go to the way of one nation world, called new world order. 20-50 years later there will be no government than one nation. It's not hard to say they use a digital currency for controlling people.

its not backed by anything solid.. but it is backed by legislation..

EG the minimum wage laws make it so that a bank note is the equivelent to atmost X.X hours
for instance in california a $10 bank note has the belief that its back atmost 1 hour of sweat labour ($10 minimum wage)

yes i know people get paid more than $10 an hour.. hense why i said atmost..

also
tax that requires to be paid only in fiat is another reason that fiat holds value as it forces people to handle dollar. rather than choose a better currency to use.

inshort:
fiat is backed by legislation and the weak belief that it has value of sweat labour. but is not backed by anything of real value/substance.. which some say that paper bank notes are backed only by other pieces of paper (laws)

Fear and blind trust that sheeps have for fiat is what's backing it.

1% of people are holding majority of value, they dont want anything to change, but it's the 99% of the rest that should do something. But why isn't anything happening ?
You could compare it to slave owner with a gun and 6 bullets, holding countless people as slaves - Fear is whats holding those people down. Noone wants to be one of the 6 people
that will fall down in order for the rest of people to live free.

Bitcoin gave people the chance to be a part of monetary revolution, where you cant print money by your wish and desire, where noone can take your funds away from you,
where you are financially free.

You have to be blind and deaf to think that this kind of revolution will pass without a struggle. Those in power will go far and beyond to stop or control this.
Russia and China are class 1 examples of modern human slavery, no wonder the battlefield is taking place there first off.

The main fact to remember is that they can not shut down bitcoin network. All they can do is intimidate and restrict it's use. So in the coming years look not so much on
the fiat-bitcoin conversion value. Be brave enough to value your coins in relation to the overall bitcoin supply , because it's all that matters the most.

Bitcoin investments based solely the idea of cashing in on it later on are little man's thoughts and dreams. Be brave enough to not fall to that kind.
Network needs more merchants willing to be a part of bitcoin, and needs you as user; as a part in the future of free monetary system, where no third party or agency can claim on what's yours and yours alone.
We're growing stronger with each passing year, and don't let petty things convince you otherwise, we will be victorious !


This is the truth, this is not manipulation. This is a clear sign we're on the right path.
https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions?showDataPoints=true&timespan=all&show_header=true&daysAverageString=7&scale=0&address=
https://i.imgur.com/yC2jAym.jpg



The waters are stirred, and the fear in our adversaries is growing. Be proud that you're a part of the bitcoin network.

Fiat is backed by jackbooted government thugs.
Bitcoin is backed by ...nothing. Please understand what the word "fiat" means, and why BTC is simply another form of fiat.

bitcoin is backed by its own usage and by the electricity used to mine, it's backed by its own technology

far better than being backed by a printer that print with the sole purpose to increase inflation and make everybody poor, minus government...

BTC or fiat will not overpower each other, I think there will be balance between these two. If BTC overpower then there would be some sudden economy change, which will be very big for countries.

Bitcoin can transact value from one point to another better than any fiat ever created. The biggest problem bitcoin has is that people are mostly too dumb to see it
and the fact that it shows how actually worthless and dumb current system is.

As you say it - infinite inflation, rigged money making machine that works in favor only of it's owner.
I just can't believe people are still dumb enough to place trust in it.

Bitcoin is backed by burnt (spent, turned into heat) electricity? That makes as little sense as fiat being backed by the billions of dead souls in cemeteries. Nonsense.
"Backed by its own technology" makes equally little sense, what does that even mean? Do you understand what "backed" means, when talking about money?

@mirana12345
>Bitcoin can transact value from one point to another better than any fiat ever created.
No. Bitcoin can not "transact value from one point to another."  It can send digital strings, which are anything but value.

Two things back the US dollar.

Military might

http://www.onemansblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/US_Military_Formation.jpg

And insane patriotism

http://www.bloggeratlarge.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Crazy-American.jpg

it make perfect sense instead, the electricity will force a minimum value because the halving otherwise will kill the miners, so there is an incentive to have a greater value in the future, for every new halving

by its own tech i mean that with the blockchain you can actually expand your business by build something on top of it, which will increase the awareness of bitcoin thus making it more valuable

but apparently you can not think outside of your fiat world contorlled by a greedy governmetn and a printer


how a string has less value than a toilet paper, only because a certain centralized autorithy said so? don't make me laugh

Bitcoin does transact value, it can also be used to store value,  as well as many other things.
Saying anything but is nothing other than ignorance, or intentional lying. So what is it in your case ?

You clearly don't understand what "backed" means, let me educate you:
[Backed currency is a form of money] whose value has a direct correspondence with the value of a commodity (such as gold), whether or not it is redeemable in that commodity on demand.
Read more: http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/backed-currency.html#ixzz3y5QIDCcv

Now stop rehashing infantile pap like "toilet paper" & "you can not think outside of your fiat world contorlled [sic] by a greedy governmetn [sic] and a printer," and try to *understand* the shit you rage against.
Otherwise, you come off as you do now -- ignorant & illiterate.

A binary string can also be used to store and transmit value.
Banks do it all the time, that's how fiat money moves around. Surprised?

I can also send my PIN code to my GF as an ASCII string, and she can take money out of a cash machine.
This doesn't mean that ASCII strings send value -- merely send information. Parties on both ends need to agree on what that info means.

Do you understand better now?

I agree that cryptocurrencies will eventually replace Ponzi fiat, but there is something backing fiat; the world's militaries.

Does the US government even have enough gold reserve to back the value of the currency? If the worldwide Bitcoin community back the crypto its price should shoot to the Moon in 1 day  ;)

That is true, cryptocurrencies will eventually replace standard FIAT. But it won't be bitcoin, litecoin or any other sovereign and decentralized digital currency.
As long as we have strong authority of government they won't allow something they don't control to be main payment method. It will be either their own issued crypto or no crypto at all.

digital strings...

so wire transfers are different how??
wire transfers are digital strings too.. so i guess fiat is "anything but value"

Do you like to read? Here:

that was the old definition, you still live under a rock, no money is backed  by gold anymore, money can be easily backed by other factor, such as the usage, the more it is used the more value it acquire

everything that make the asset more valuable can be consider a form of backup

No. That's why fiat money is called fiat money. That's what fiat means.
So now you know.

a century ago bank notes were known as the "gold-back" (name explains it all) then when the ties to gold dissolved, the nickname became "green-back" prely based on the color of the paper because it was only backed by the paper..

these days its called fiat.. which the most laymans explanation is FederallyIinsuredAndTaxed because bank notes are ony backed by the laws of the land using it..

in short.. if governments changed the laws to not be "$10min wage/hour in california" and "pay court fees in dollars" or "pay tax in dollars" and instead allowed Euro, Yuan, pound to be freely handed around... the dollar would die because its no longer important or essential to handle or use

That's the current definition of "backed currency". I didn't travel back in time to give you that link.
And if you feel that everything contributes to an asset's backing, how is fiat toilet paper unbacked? It is "backed by the full faith and credit of the U.S. a government (or, as you would put it, Jackbooted Gubermint Thugs)."
Bitcoin? Miners fork off to a better alt, and *POOF!* No moar backing :(

Fiat is backed by all of us because we're the ones giving it value. Pretty much no one can go full Bitcoin as of yet. As long fiat is used, it will be backed by many.

Changing this requires changing people's mentality and education, and that takes a very long time...

Remedial finance: The term [fiat] derives from the Latin fiat ("let it be done", "it shall be")[2] used in the sense of an order or decree.[1] It differs from commodity money and representative money. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money)

http://s28.postimg.org/z7jdhyci5/reading.jpg

I better call all the stores and service owners where i purchased with bitcoin then , and tell them that i have transacted them no value at all.
My god man, you are really ignorant. You are staring facts in face, but still yappin' around like a cave man.

So I guess texting my PIN to my GF also transfers value, only faster & easier :)
Start reading and stop being retarded, my good man.

The good news is that it is highly unlikely for miners to go to a different alt because most of them are shit anyways. Bitcoin and Litecoin are primarily the only cryptos with value, and so a new coin would have to be able to sway people over and show it has value.

yeah but bitcoin is not backed by anything too is it? and if the money would be backed by gold it still doesnt mean anything as gold is not backed by anything and its price is regulated only by the demand between people, everything can be worthless if all people will say that it is worthless

With teh hard, lubeless forkening looming, we'll effectively split Bitcoin in two (many small-blockers claim they'll remain on the shorter chain because edgy ideology and Marlon Brando in The Wild One. Also threaten to undermine Classic).
So warring factions, spamming nodes, double-spends, lynch-mobs, death squads, babies being born without brains...

People will flee Bitcoin to *any* alt, like they flee a war-torn city :D

how can miners fork off to a better alt? this does not make any sense, because it mean that other miners are still mining bitcoin

i think you're not understanding how consensus work, there is no "two bitcoin" possible, always one, any other is just an alt


also miners of bitcoin are mining with asic that mine sha256, it's beyond me how he can think that they can switch to any other ago, when it is known that asic are specialized...

utterly no-sense

Do you understand Bitcoin at all? Do you understand what a hard fork (the one likely coming up) is? Do you understand that there will be *2* competing chains?
As in incited of one Bitcoin, there will be *2* Bitcoins -- core, with ~25% of the hashpower (if that), and Classic.
2 Bitcoins, *both* running SHA256 miners, now *competing*.

:)

P.S. You do know that SHA256 != Bitcoin, right? The miners & their gear are beholden to SHA256, not Bitcoin.

this!  We keep the Fiat dream alive by believing it is worth something.  If most people understood the concept that it is not "backed" by anything they would no longer believe in the dream.

no that is your issue, there will be no two competing chains ever, the consensus mechanincs work in the way that only one there can be at any given time

there will be not two parallel chain running together on which on both you can hold bitcoin, one of the two is not bitcoin it's an alt, like you have many of them in the altsection

and wrong again for the sha256 and bitcoin, because bitcoin without merchants is useless, miners are beholden to bitcoin not to the algo

In theory the economy of the country backs the Fiat paper, but when US has a debt of trillions and growing, what's it worth?

Yes, you are right

Not only do you not understand Bitcoin, but you seem generally confused.
>there will be no two competing chains ever.
Wrong.
>only one there can be at any given time
Wrong.
>one of the two is not bitcoin it's an alt
"there will be *2* Bitcoins -- core, with ~25% of the hashpower (if that), and Classic."
Yes, you can call one of them an alt. Which one is entirely up to you.
>and wrong again for the sha256 and bitcoin, because bitcoin without merchants is useless, miners are beholden to bitcoin not to the algo
Wrong. The core alt will be without merchants exchanges, the only merchants that matter. Unless the merchants exchangesare insane, and go with the core forklet (which could, and will, be attacked and re-forked with the massive hashpower of Classic)

So now you know :)

you clearly do not know how consensus work, the majority of the vote through the node will determine what the new chain will be the real bitcoin and what will be only an alt, no coins will be lost

there were multiple hard fork, hard forking it's nothing new, learns about the history of bitcoin

>the majority of the vote through the node will determine what the new chain will be
That makes no sense. What are you trying to say?

As far as history goes, chances are I sold you your first coin. Enjoy :)

Who accepts a PIN for goods and services? And you're calling people names?.?.

>Who accepts a PIN for goods and services?
My GF does. Why else would I send her my PIN? Try to read more carefully.

>And you're calling people names?.?.
I respond in kind.

Where will your GF spend the PIN?

Try to actually think before posting. You call people names because you know your "argument" is weak. Just because you and your BF play silly value games doesn't mean they have actual value.

Thanks for playing!

Just because your BF accepts Monopoly money for blowjobs doesn't mean Monopoly money has value.

i can go on and on......

No Government. That's not possible but I do believe there will be digital currency along with the physical one. If not bitcoins, the currency may have a new name but fiat won't be worthless. There are still many who use coins instead of notes so the barter system will remain the same.

She will spend the PIN at an ATM machine, exchange it for USD, and buy goods and services with those.

Just like a typical Bitcoin-accepting merchant relies on a payment processor like BitPay, to turn your BTC into USD, so they could buy goods and services with those.

FTFY
Do go on :)

I don't think you know what PIN is ..


That's what i am trying to explain to him the whole time, but he's either too dumb to understand or just an annoying troll.
He lacks the understanding of basic terminology and facts, but that doesn't stop him from trying to undermine other people's opinions.
Anyways, the title is about fiat not having anything to back it, so at the least we agree about that one.

^^The Personal Identification Number for the bank card, which is in my wallet, which, in turn, is in her basket.

And *of course* fiat isn't backed by anything other than the issuer's word. By definition. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money)
I know it's an amazing revelation to you, but most people learn this in grade school.

According to multiple exchanges Bitcoin has value. I hate to call names but you're either a troll or have the IQ of a gnat.

According to multiple exchanges, bitcoin has value. To the people *buying* it.
Just like my PIN has value to my GF.
Just like Beanie Babies have value to Beanie Finance enthusiasts.
Get it?
Exchanges don't buy your coins, they simply let you sell them to other, more gullible lunatics.
Just like eBay doesn't buy Beanies, it lets you sell them to other lunatics who think they're worth it.
That's how value is established -- free market.
When you sold a Beanie, and USD shows up in your PayPal, you haven't revolutionized the payment industry by transacting with Beanies.
Capiche?

FIAT Money is debt/credit, and debt/credit is backed by deposits. I can't get credit out of hot air.

you can..

you do know that credit is a credit agreement.. the primary way banks "create money"..

you do realise that its not money movement from one account to another to give you credit.. the banks magic the money out of nowhere and you sign a credit card contract to hand them funds + a fee..

same goes for mortgages. the funds dont come from other peoples accounts.

when you realise that its created by nothing more then laws allowing them to create it under the use of credit agreements .. you will see that fiat is only backed by laws..

It is only worth anything because we believe in it. We all use it without even thinking. Same goes for bitcoins worth, we believe in it. We use it therefore that has created value in it. If we were to all dump our coins it would become worthless.

fiat is worth something not just because we believe its worth something, countries governments say that it has a worth and it means that it has to have it as people listen to them, with bitcoin everything is different as people control the price themselves

here how consensus work

if the majority(in %, i don't remember if it was 51% or 90%+, i believe 90%+) of the node has chosen a path, simply that path is the new bitcoin, the minority are now mining an altcoin, if the % is 50/50, then nothing happened they are still mining on the old fork

basically the majority is always bitcoin and the minority is an altcoin, there is no "two bitcoin" ever, that was a false info, that was spread during the Xt era

Bitcoin is such a nightmare for fiat!

wrong..

the only time there there would be gavincoin and bitcoincore coin as 2 separate distinctive coins. is if they never interact with each others miners.

EG lets say we have 3 miners.. A, B, C... where C is the miner that has >1mb block limit and a,b are normal <1mb block limits..

imagine "classic" gets a block from C, and then the very next block is from B... the node will see that B does not include header data of the C block. and would render the previous block(c) orphan
some people say i dont articulate my laymans descriptions well.. (i do try to not use technical waffle on purpose)
so here is a gif that shows it better, enjoy
https://i.imgur.com/QZD5Qk5.gif


C miners would only be accepted without orphan if A,B accept blocks over 1mb.. causing a consensus upgrade
or if classic nodes only communicated with C miners and ignored other miners who have not upgraded.. causing a fork and altcoin..
those are 2 different outcomes and should not be mis-interpretted as one..

meaning as long as the majority of miners dont upgrade.. the ones that do try to force the issue will get orphaned.

and the only way that C will survive while other miners dont upgrade, and the only way to create a new alt. is if classic nodes only accept C blocks and totally avoid other blocks from other miners.

so as long as nodes accept blocks from all mining pools, the system is safe and there is only one chain. as those pushing outside the limits will get orphaned.

But of course the Classic miners won't interact with Core miners, isn't that the definition of a hard fork?
Classic nodes reject Core blocks, Core nodes reject Classic blocks.

of course fiat money is worthless, its just a paper, but i dont think that it causes any problems as bitcoin is just a code too that has value just because people think its valuable

At the minute men with guns back fiat........ :o

This. Every currency is worthless because it represents something else that actually have value. If you are talking about how fiat works and how it's based on debt basically, well that's how it goes, if you have a new system that is compatible with human life (not idiotic or idealistic utopian dreams) then you can propose something better. I think Bitcoin has potential, at least to change some things around. The problem is that it just doing its first steps but it is surely a complete unique way of rethinking economy and technology in today's world.

Of course not. That's why it's called fiat.
"No country currently backs its currency with gold, but many have in the past, including the U.S.; for half a century beginning in 1879, Americans could trade in $20.67 for an ounce of gold. The country effectively abandoned the gold standard in 1933, and completely severed the link between the dollar and gold in 1971."

Welcome to 21st century.

So, let me see if I have understood this correctly.

On the one side we have fiat currency, backed up by your government, maybe backed up by other countries, possibly the IMF too. Used by 100% of the population of your country and probably many that aren't.

On the other side we have Bitcoin, backed up by nobody and used by less than 1/1000th of the population of any country. Mainly used by criminals and ohh, most people seem to only care what it's worth against the dollar, which I'm sure means that most users seem to only care about making money in a fiat currency?

And yet you say fiat paper is worthless?

Well, at one point and time autos were in the same boat. 100% of the population traveled by horse and buggy. There were no gas stations, and roads weren't equipment for gasoline powered motorcars.

Fiat isn't worthless yet, but that is the direction. Once the people of this planet (and I use that term loosely) awaken to the Ponzi scheme being perpetrated by the central banks, they won't want US Dollars, Euro, or Yen. The people will demand cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin.

These new digital currencies will grow to become more popular and more important than the internet. You are in the right place, at the right time, to witness the liberation of mankind from its chains of fiat bondage.

1. If I have to pay my mortgage, taxes, food bills in dollars I will want dollars. If I'm also being paid in dollars then why the hell would I want to convert my hard earned cash into an intermediary and take a hit on commission fees?

2. If you think your, or any, government will let Bitcoin replace it's own currency then you are delusional. It will never, ever, ever happen.

3. I accept that you may make money by investing (gambling) in Bitcoin, but if you want to protect yourself from a financial collapse you should buy something like gold instead. Should the worse thing happen you will have something shiny for your efforts.

1. The transition to cryptocurrencies will be a slow process that will occur over many decades. The value of these currencies will grow as the network effect increases. Yes, today you are correct, it is tedious and somewhat impractical. But so was downloading a movie or sending an email in 1994.

2. This is a valid point. But I don't think bitcoin will replace fiat. I believe bitcoin will be co-opted by central banks until it is under their full regulatory control. It will be emerging cryptocurrencies that will slowly chip away at this financial establishment rule.

3. I own very little Bitcoin. But I am investing in gold; a rare digital gold. But that is a discussion for another forum.

Yes, satoshi's already bigger than Jesus, crypto more important than the internet, and mankind will soon be freed from the chains of ...what was it? fiat bondage.
BTW, you ever share shaving utensils/needles/had unprotected sex with AmericanPegasus? PM me, will keep it confidential. Just trying to pin down Patient Zero.
ty

I don't think it is the army that backs fiat money, otherwise fiat money will be backed by President, who is the leader of army. If fact President do not have direct control over the creation of fiat money, he only borrow money from central banks

I believe it is backed by an illusion which is very difficult to get rid off, and once everyone have this illusion, the loop is closed so it can maintain itself indefinitely

I think that we will be waiting a long time before Bitcoin overtakes fiat.

Bitcoin overtook the USD so quickly it was laughable,

something that took 5,000 years to evolve got smashed

in a few short years by logic

How long is a long time? I think fiat will exist for at least a few centuries more. But, we have to admit that technology is evolving so rapidly. 20 years ago we still used a beeper/buzzer, no mobile phones, no flat screen, floppy disk, cassette and no internet either.

adoption is speeding up of new technology, people lie and say no one knows about bitcoin

but its complete bs, its just like saying no one has heard about any type of currency, ill admit

i dont know the name of every currency in the world but of course i have heard about them

and would accept any of them into my life in a significant quantity :)

Precious metals will always be the backbone of currency trading across the globe. I would take physical 1 o.z. silver and gold eagles all day over fiat or digital currency. My reason for this? My bullion is backed by my 12 gauge. Which is strong.

and u post here instead of metals forum ;)

Note to self:
TheCloser is a srs d00d. Cap right away.

lol hes is dressing up for the movies hes in europe

1. if you wash away your love of the american dollar.. and think about the third world countries.. your mindset will shift and not be so biased and obvious that your a Yank

2. bitcoin has more population then several countries/currencies combined.. again stop comparing to america.. and think about the world and different fiats.

3. less bitcoin % is used illegally compared to your loving dollar.. just walk the streets of detroit or other street hustling towns of drugs and prostitution and you will finally wake up that your lovely dollar is not so perfect

4. again wrong.. i get paid in bitcoin and i buy things in bitcoin. my fiat bank balance has not been touched in months.. maybe 1 transaction in 2 years was from my fiat bank.. the rest was in bitcoin.. and also im not american so i dont even care about the dollar valuation.. that dollar valuation are for those that love the dollar.. (only 318m out of 7billion.. .. UNDER 5% ...so not that many)

5. go talk to anyone that lives in china who uses yuan, how important the dollar is to them. they wont care about the dollar.

i think that you have not yet learned bitcoins usefulness, i dont think you realise that you can get a job anywhere in the world and not have to be paid in dollars..
so try to put your love for the dollar aside. and spend 5 minutes pretending you are from bangledesh, china, barbados.. anywhere thats not america.. and i promise you, your mind will be more enlightened to whats available outside of your american cesspit

It's backed by the force of tyrants. It's the biggest fraud in history, the cause of all problems in our society. World will be a much different place whan we fix the money.

It's not created by nothing. It's created against a deposit/pledge (House, machines, salary etc.) Money is not a thing. Money is debt/credit.

Its best to be well diversified. Hedging is the key to success.

Absolutely correct. Fiat is backed by faith but ultimately exists because of debt. Without debt there would be no need for the amount of currency in existence.

1. USD is great. Why would he "wash away [his] love" for it? How is that in his enlightened self-interest?

2. you mean like Sealand, Liberlandand, and that new country, the one under a highway bridge?

3. Patently false. Bitcoin, while used by .0001% of the world's population, already Bitcoin accounts for over 40% of criminal-to-criminal online payments (http://www.econotimes.com/Europol-Bitcoin-accounts-for-over-40-of-criminal-to-criminal-online-payments-97270)

4. You know who else never touches his bank account? A kid living in mom's basement, that's who.

5. BTC price is so high because Chinese criminals are using it to move money out of the country. Duh!

its not created against a deposit.. seriously you are missing out lesson one of fiat money creation..
here.. straight from the bank of england website
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Documents/quarterlybulletin/2014/qb14q1prereleasemoneycreation.pdf

a bank deposits NEW money into a persons account.. it doesnt shift money from someone elses account .. it creates a new balance.. out of no where, based on credit agreements.

being brutally honest.. miners do the same thing. a new 25btc is created on the agreement of a block creation. just like banks create money on a credit agreement.
but banks agreement is not controlled supply.. they can create any amount they like by accepting more and more agreements. with no time or value limit.. which is what ultimately caused the 2008 financial crises because they made bad agreements (sub-prime loans) literally creating money without concern or control or rules to mathematically create money at a stable and predictable amount.

"Out of no where" is not true. Out of your deposit is true. If you have no deposit/pledge (house, machine, salary etc.) you won't get a credit agreement.

Criminal-to-criminal online payments

• Bitcoin accounts for over 40%
• PayPal accounts for 25%

:D

Someone should shut that company down. >:(

For the math-impaired: PayPal criminal/noncriminal tx ratio is roughly 1:1000; Bitcoin? roughly 1:1 :(

True. I'm doing criminal stuff as we speak. Makes me feel like a big man. :)

Do you understand that it's not in the banksters' enlightened self-interest to debase the money they print? No more than it is for the miners to hardfork max_coins to 42 million?

@BlindMayorBitcorn: Not against criminality, only against obvious, boring, inept criminality. Like reanimating all the shit from late 1800s/early 1900s, the stuff that brought about regulation.

thread attracted the loud mouthed shills again shouting the big C word

take the big C and shove it up ur big C

1. your just a yank trolling now. too indeep in their love for the dollar to realise that pounds, yuan rubles, euro's exist. to yanks.. only the dollar is king.. (very narrow minded and not enlightened at all)

2. no, more like Maldives, Liberia, Central African Republic.. to name just 3 of 20.. so dont downplay things by talking about them shitty sealand crap

3.  fiat based activity accounts for more actually..
oh and using the words from that econo link:
"could become the go-to currency for digital criminals in the region" could become.. doesnt constitute bitcoin already is
oh and "it is apparent that bitcoin may gradually be taking on that role." may gradually... does not constitute bitcoin already is

so try to put so called statements into the context of the actual words used..

do you know that they only mentioned paypal, they didnt mention all other types .
so say this:
offline:
40% credit card fraud -fiat offline
30% wire transfer fraud -fiat offline
30% pickpocketing - fiat offline

online:
40% bitcoin fraud -btc online
25% paypal fraud -fiat online
10% sagepay fraud -fiat online
20% streamline fraud -fiat online
5% stripe -fiat online
by just mentioning paypal vs bitcoin it would be 25% vs 40% (baited results to support biased narrative)

but if mentioning fiat vs bitcoin for online transactions it would be 60% fiat and 40% bitcoin..
but if mentioning all fraud online and offline.. it would be 80% fiat 20% bitcoin.

so context matters.. and narrowminds dont think about context or scope of things spoonfed to them

4. i dont live with my parents.. they died . i have my own place and pay my own rent. simply because i have a job that for one is not paid in dollars.. for two is paid in bitcoin.

5. your mindset is stuck in the 2012 propaganda of silkroad vs 5,000 legitimate retailers... things are not like that.. there are over 120,000 legit retailers and no silk road.. so i might aswell be comparing fiat to the wild west days of saloons, prostitutes and highwaymen(robbers).. if we both want to only think of the past

1. NO U! USD is great. Why would he "wash away [his] love" for it? How is that in his enlightened self-interest?

2. Source? Easter Bunny is the greatest way to send money anywhere in the world. Trust me :)

3. You don't know how to parse human speech. Bitcoin *already* accounts for 40% pf all criminal-to-criminal transactions.

4. Then you're a fucking tax cheat, criminal. Can't pay taxes in BTC. Pay your taxes.

5.  "10,000 legitimate retailers." :D Only if you count the ones who put BitPay's payment option & never got paid in BTC. Which is roughly 99.9% of them. :)

P.S.  re. "SR propaganda": SR was, possibly, the most legitimate thing in Bitcoin ever -- definitely the most legitimate DNM. Now that scene has turned to shit and exit scam. I'm talking about everything about Bitcoin being across-the-board scam. PayPal made trading on the internet relatively frictionless. Bitcoin made scamming on the internet relatively safe. And little else :(

never go full retard dude

u went full retard

You were around in early 2011. Why did you sit for so long inactive and then suddenly decide to become active again? You must be someone's alt. Who are you? Are you Bruno?

You are right.. but its the buying power fiat has.

British old chap. Can't be bothered to discuss with someone who makes assumptions rather than use logic. Going down the pub for a late Sunday lunch. Cheerio.

It is only backed by the gov's promise. If the gov run in to insolvency, the fiat will be worthless.

We might be waiting a very very long time before this happens. But if it does, you are completely correct.

Fiat is backed by the banks the governments and the armies. It's not completely worthless on the contrary Bitcoin is depended on the Internet. What if there is a 3rd World War and all the Internet is gone. What will you trade then to eat food?

But in such situation it is safe to assume governments and the armies will not be in control either. So why should you accept some piece of paper (cotton) and give it higher value than the piece of paper (cotton) really have (basically close to 0) ???

Cannot agree and it is not correct. Cannot agree because cannot be worthless the most important thing for what work almost all the people of the world. Almost everyone work to have that worthless subject and with which can be made everything one person want. That worthless thing open most of all the existing doors of this world. Make almost everyone to do and to have the life he/she want. Make happy almost everyone who receive it and is the only tool who can be used to have almost everything. And sometimes make several people to degenerate or even to harm themselves. That's for its being "completely worthless" according to OP.

As for being backed it is again a wrong deduction that which can be read at the title of the thread. Every currency (money) in existence legally and emit from a Central Bank or a similar Authority within a given country is backet by the owner of that currency which is the State of that Country. They (through the Authorities created exactly for this aim) take care about everything has to do with that given currency. If not do so the economy of that country will be in chaos within days or weeks.

@OP,
If you are saying that fiat is completely worthless, remember that we ain't currently living in a "Bitcoin-Only based economy" and rather we are living in a biased economy where most are in its favor and most are barking against it...

Also, the values are currently being evaluated in "Paper money" itself for BTC, and it will take a lot of time for BTC to take over these economies...

It guess Op mentioned here. Fiat is worthy for all people but Bitcoin is more worth in value and its system as well.
World economy is depends on fiat only but bitcoin have future power like How middle east countries came arise power with oil resource after 1970.

No I guess, because Op has been saying that Bitcoin would replace Fiat very soon, which is not gonna happen...
As we have all witnessed that BTC has developed gradually and its user base too increased rapidly, but that doesn't mean that it is accepted by everyone, and for that to happen, we all would need to dedicate too much time and even money in accordance with the needs of everyone, and that would take a lot of time...

thats correct, nothing backs it so it is completely worthless, i believe that people should start using bitcoin because of that and it would help bitcoin to grow

Exactly....... So many discussions I have had with people, in regards to that piece of paper 'representing' nothing its amazing.

Gold standard has to come back, if we want to move the wealth distribution in the right direction.
This is the basic fact.

True. Reading bitcoin news, btctalk threads etc. can make you feel, that bitcoin is a serious game changer in the financial world. And then just log out and take a look around your real world surrounding you, to ascertain it won't happen in the nearest future.

I am blown away at the ignorant responses here, but that shouldn't surprise me.  It's a silly topic to begin with, as bitcoin isn't backed by anything either.   "Math and electricity", that's a joke.  Money doesn't have to be backed by anything to serve its function, and what we've got--fiat--is hardly worthless.  I buy everything with it.  Could it become worthless?  Certainly.  Most things can.

That's true, fiat can't be worthless, else BTC itself will be worthless someday if we won't evaluate with fiat as currently it is the only way people are "exchanging" their coins for the same...
Certainly???
Do you think that it will get worthless one day???
It will, but will still have some value associated with it, as it cannot be completely destroyed...

Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of Satoshi, but those that be of statist fraud!
...all hopped up on bath salts, probably >:(

Why then governments hesistate (generally) to print money everytime they need some? Why can't I print some on my own?

no, the governments back fiat.

In fact, I'm willing to bet you that there are WAAAAAAYYYYY more people who would trust government backed currencies than none-government backed currencies.

Because when you print money without the economy to back it, you get price inflation roughly equivalent to base money inflation (the extra money you printed).
You can print your own money, and you do. Bitcoin, for instance, is just that. As are all the alts. You can print Monopoly money.
You can't print *counterfeit* government money.
That answer your questions?

Surely there are lot of people trusting governments, but it does not proof validity of that view. Gov's are backing money with promises, like the future retirements in some countries.

Would you like to be "indebted" to yourself???
Then, how do you think governments will be able to take such steps as if it is going to harm the economy so badly???
Printing ain't in the hands of Governments alone, there are Federal Reserves who take care of the same...

That's the way society works, on trust. Bitcoin being no exception.
You trust that other people will want your bitcoins, and they, in turn, trust that those bitcoins will be worth something to other people. Turtles all the way down.
Substitute *whatever you want* for Bitcoin. Try Beanie Babies.

If there are any BTC buy offers, thats not the matter of trust at all. When somebody is buyin BTC he/she is taking some risk. The difference is, that governments don't inform about any risks related to their decisions, but want people to believe that their conditions are set in stone.


I have responded to the claim, that money could be backed by nothing. I didn't say, that governments should print money at will, please read carefully.

This process is not that fast, and the community would not jeopardize it's own assets like that. Remember that a hard fork needs to have the majority adoption. Why would the majority want to their assets become dust all of a sudden?

Worst case scenario there would be another strong coin on the horizon, and btc would gradually fade as people would migrate their assets to the new strong coin (of even both them would coexist).

i guess you are right, but it still has value as governments say that and you can buy stuff with it

What do you mean?  Did Bitcoin warn you about risks? Is a mechanism for issuing such warnings even a part of the Bitcoin protocol?
I certainly can't speak for every government, but mine (US) hasn't lied to me re. value of the USD.

No. A hard fork simply needs *one* miner to start mining it. How long it lives (how many blocks) is another story.
As far as "majority" goes, this "majority" doesn't include people who are hodling (not trading/using) their coin. Only the coins currently in play (on exchanges) & fiat (people willing to buy mined coins) are a part of this "majority."
TL;DR: Miners will mine whatever they can sell, most of their assets are in gear/real estate housing that gear, don't necessarily hold BTC,
Can you see how their interests might not coincide with the hodlers?

Nice point. What could holders do to protect from this risk? There's no precise way to know which new coin will be massively adopted by the miners...

Also, if miners stop mining btc, then mining btc becomes more profitable, and it atracts other miners... no?

A whole mess of variables.
-Usually, miners point their rigs at the most profitable coin. So "stopped mining" actually means "pointed their rigs at a more profitable coin (or fork)."
(all the new miners flock to the new coin/fork until its profitability equals Bitcoin)

-Could stop mining due to a bad actor, e.g. Chinese government seizing/buying (to mine their own crypto)/criminalizing the mines.

-The miners are paid in BTC, not fiat. This means that if BTC price falls by 50%, mining becomes more than 50% less profitable until even more miners leave.

-The halvening (block reward cut in half) is coming this summer, etc., etc.

only because he have power to do so, and people have not other way around than trusting the government, because going against it would result in being a criminal

essentially this si a dictatorial regime in disguise, in the modern era where we live...

The bolded part is wrong. They trust the government because of all the propaganda they received during their youth. People think communist propaganda brainwashes chinese/previous USSR/north korean etc people, but really, propaganda all over the world brainwashes their people.

Regardless of whether its right or wrong, that's the way the world currently is. You (in general, not you, amph) would be delusional to think otherwise. Hoping people will all magically come to realize the truth and come to bitcoin will only cause bitcoin to die.

the more exact world would be being like a criminal, feeling dirty, but yeah i agree on the brainwashed part, they are like puppets controlled by the government already, not all of them of course

We non stop talking about fiat is done, is history and it is evil, but we all still using it and we are going to use it and tomorrow..
We living in this capitalistic monetary system and if we really want to change something we must change that corrupted system!

I don't understand why we always feel it is necessary to contrapose Bitcoin to fiat. Can't they just coexist with each other like they do today? Bitcoin is a good thing but I don't think we should kill all the other things which are not so good just because of that.

The difference is that fiat is backed by faith but ultimately exists because of debt. Without debt there would be no need for the amount of currency in existence. When a miner "finds" a block it also creates money out of nowhere, but the fact that there's a limited supply of coins to be mine is in blatant contrast with the never-ending issuing of money Central Banks are tied to.

All money that you can't eat/smoke/fuck/live inside represents debt. Or not.
What, exactly, does BTC represent, other than "I hope (have faith that) someone will give me something of value for this binary string that I got"?

Damnit, I must deposit more fiat into banks, because I wait for my -90% bail-in haircut.

I look better with short hair anyway :)

Dolar is integrated in this system and hardly can be cut from it without harsh response of system.
Dolar will stay as many other currencies of the world at the same time. Bitcoin will take the lead on Internet !

Fiat is getting fried  :D

We can only get some other currencies from  government's hand if dollar do not fails.
Don't ever think you can take control over the world with bitcoin..