Bitcoin Forum

Vote guys  8)

It's manipulated, yes. But how deep do the strings of control and manipulation stretch? Do they reach all the way into Bitcoin's core?

Let's see how well this new BIP102 is received and we'll have our answer!

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the big exchangers(backed by their shit investors) are manipulating the market with their bots. Same as MTgox did it.

Bitstamp, BTC China, Huobi, Okcoin(already proved), Bitfinex(already proved).

I am not sure but in my thinking what if a person/company buys a 1 million btc with a price of let's say $300. If that amount is enough to pump up the btc price to a certain amount then sell it again to that higher price, then how much profit they would make. Then dumping again that amount of btc will sure to drop price. If that is happening in the process then I can say bitcoin is a manipulated coin. Not controlled but manipulated.

For sure it is a manipulated

it definitely is manipulated.

All it takes is a few guy who own a ton of it to sell / buy more at the same time
for it to move a bunch. Then people get spooked and it causes panic selling by others.

OP, this is a stupid poll.  You need to define what manipulated means, because your mileage may vary.  Can whales change the price of bitcoin somewhat at whim?  Yes, because the market cap is small relative to the stock of Pfizer or Coca-Cola, for example.  Every buy/sell order manipulates the market to some extent. 

Do you mean by governments or something like that or the miners?  What do you mean?

If you are talking about the exchange price, then yes.

im agree if btc is manipulated..especially in currency exchange
i see btc price right now is getting worse  :(

maybe, I hear from people if bitcoin prices in a market can be manipulated by someone, if you have a lot of money you can regulate the market to your advantage

The price is definitely manipulated... The protocol?... in some degree...

Not just Bitcoin but almost everything is manipulated by some degree. Bitcoin is still small and trade is not under harsh regulations so it is relatively easy to manipulate but as it grows that would be more and more expensive to do.

To an extent, Yes. That's why only few people from the so called "Whale Club" is needed to significantly change and affect it's value but that's it and it stops there and not all the way from it's root so not totally manipulation could be done.

It's a sad state but yes bitcoin can be manipulated,just like in the real world,those who have more had a big share and had what to say about the state of bitcoin,but as long as they are there to protect every body's interest we are ok it;s just the way it is

Yes Bitcoin is Manipulated coin, like what all said, the coin in the market is less so if any big players suddenly start a atleast 25% share of market for buying we can see the price roaring up very soon and same time if anyone just dump sell the bitcoin in market rate their we can see the panic selling, so when anything is happening like this that means it is manipulated coin. and Most of the Crypto coins are priced in conversion of Bitcoins so they are also getting affected by the fluctuation of Bitcoins.

The answer is yes and it is very obvious and also hearn showed and revealed it, dont forget why we stuck within the range of $392 - $370 it is because of what he did.

Tell me what other commodity or currency are not being manipulated in some way, and I will feel guilty about the manipulation that takes place in Bitcoin. You have whales in most sectors of the economy and they will shift their weight and manipulate the commodities in a way that suite their investment portfolio.

I know of maize farmers who keep maize back from the markets to influence the price, until they are ready to sell. No matter if there are droughts or food shortages, they still do it.  

not exactly manipulated, just more fragile.... as theres no longer orders of 2000-5000 coins per order line to create resistance.
exchanges are not hoarding 1m coins of customers funds anymore..

now most order lines are decimals to 100 coins at most.
and most exchanges probably hold 10k-100k of customers funds at most

so whales have it easy to eat up orders compared to 2 years ago..

its what happens when people lose trust in exchanges and people stop trading on them,
its what happens when the price is not $2-$3 or $80-$90 where it was a healthier risk to throw more coins at an order without caring.. but not so much now

so there is less coin on the markets to stabilize the price when someone buys or sells more than average

seems the price started going down when forbes released this
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2016/01/28/legislature-says-no-to-bitcoin-tax-payments/#1bc38088b6ad

if by manipulated, you are talking about its price then i believe it is manipulated but not 100%

the bitcoin market as we have seen before in cases like mtgox has been manipulated and today is no different, it might be less but it still exists.

Why do you say manipulation? bitcoin is indeed a coin, right?

mtgox was very manipulated. there was a special bot made by MTgox themselves that read peoples orders, delayed trades so that the bot would have an advantage ahead of other traders..

this time it doesnt feel like bot/internal trading.. but more so lack of resistance when speculation sparks.. due to lack of holdings/order sizes

Perhaps bitcoin is manipulated in one way or another, but honestly I believe it's still more free than most commodities. Just look at oil at the moment, OPEC manipulated it for decades and look it's still tumbling now. There are a lot of factors but that's the idea.

In what sense are you asking that heh?

In the sense that miners have to download an update even for a soft-fork, no.
In the sense that hash power can create a hard fork, yes.

In my opinion with a soft-fork, you don't have to download an update. This means that the network could still dismiss it and not run the new code as it's backwards compatible. I suppose it's even possible to force some rethinking there, so yes in that sense but no in forcing. And HF will be a forced update so users will have to update to be compatible, in this sense users are being forced which i think constitutes for manipulation, utilizing hashing power to "democratically" enforce it. But sure there could be different answers, I am not going to force that.

Let me rephrase actually, both are manipulation in some sense.

Is there a coin that is not manipulated in any way? I think all the altcoins are ultimately launched to generate a quick profit for their creators and the early adopters.

Every coin is manipulated , its fairly easy to see when you see the amount of pump and dump that occur on a daily bases almost. Im not clued up on stocks and beleive market manipulation is illegal but im pretty sure even stocks have a fair share of market manipulation. thats just the way it is.

we got answer  ???  yes  :)

Every exchangeable asset is manipulated to some degree.  It's all part of the game.  The more important question in my mind would be: How much is bitcoin manipulated and by who or what organization?  

are you serious.  ;D

yes be it bitcoin or any other crypto coins, everything can be manipulated , take for example the recent price rise of alt coins  ;D , trade make money and move on if you really wanted to make something. or get some dough and take your profits :)

I think you will never know the answer except you have inside infomation. As the adoption rate is increasing, more ppl arebinvolved at it, the chance of being manipulated is becoming lower.

Everything that involves money and value is manipulated, including gold and Bitcoin. But unlike most fiat currencies, bitcoin manipulation cannot take place behind close curtains, at the exclusive will of a small banking elite.

So, the right answer should be: it's MUCH LESS manipulated that dollars and euros.

it's so clear, but they are manipulating it not only for accumulation

i believe there are at least two kind of manipulation in bitcoin, one is for accumulation the other for pumping the value to face the halving

in those manipulation time you get some average joe getting in to try his luck or to become a trader...

Unless you enter into a sensory deprivation unit for  a period of time, everything you encounter on a daily basis is manipulated to some degree. Even when you sleep your dreams are influenced by what you did in your waking state. To live is to be manipulated, this could be for good or bad, but it is the essence of our existence.

Yes bitcoin is decentralized one but manipulation will be always there in every trading assets like gold and silver. Their manipulation doesn't have huge effect like it have when bitcoin get manipulated because bitcoin is not well distributed throughout the large worldwide audience or traders.

But this whole world economy is always manipulated by the billionaire.

What you said is the later part. Initially it worked manually. These days we say the technology development is moving bitcoin but ion one ore more way the technology is manipulated which needs to be agreed

Where you have money you will have manipulation this is nature of this game!
Bitcoin is just in his early days and is heavily manipulated on every exchanges.
But relax and enjoy this can also make you money..

Idle, mindless thread. Silly FUD.

/Thread

you should change the title into 'is the bitcoin price being manipulated?' most people (me included) think the bitcoin price is being manipulated heavily.

And how can your inline post contribute to this topic?
This is actually a good topic, and for those who don't like, they don't need to participate.

Yes a manipulated by the rich who needs the poor to buy what they're selling and buy the negative news to bring the price down so later on the rich can expand their holdings.

If the manipulation reached the core, we would see much more deeper pump&dump movements. It's possible to manipulate it, sure. But this manipulation, because the market size is already bit, is not that powerful.

You right, bitcoin is coin, it's means digital currency. But what OP means is the price ;D and I think it's indeed manipulated, there are some group of whales who have greedy passion. And the price is will not stable as other currency always volatile if there are big news about bitcoin.

Exactly. So much fear-mongering. I ask you my friends, what is market manipulation if not the glorious workings of the Invisible Hand?

Liquidity on all the exchanges is paper thin, the reason its paper thin is because no one trusts the exchanges enough to keep large sums of cash/bitcoin on them for very long. If you want stability you need long standing buy and sell orders on both sides of the moving price but all we appear to have is day traders. The lack of faith in these companies makes it very hard to go long on bitcoin.  But is the price being manipulated? Well I would say yes, of course it is, it should be obvious, for instance every time the FBI was about to sell a large sum of seized Bitcoins from the Silk_Road the price would jump up right before the sell then fall back down again after. This happened three times that I'm aware of. Now if someone was about to flood the market with a shitload of bitcoin the price should fall but it went up all three times.

There's Gemini -- fully regulated, US-based & backed by big bux :-\

regulation brings a lot of things like strong AML, verifications, etc. The most Bitcoin traders prefers to stay away of this thing.

Also, Gemini is used by americans only.

Exchange websites determine the price of bitcoins but rarely do they have significant changes unless there is some speculation related to bitcoins. Bitcoins are definitely manipulated but same is the case with forex and stock market as well where the demand and supply decides the price of shares.

Agree. I think it is manipulable. Just see how the opinion of one rather important person can affect the price. However it is not completely manipulated and more users would likely mean harder to manipulate.

Similar to the way that central banks manipulate the exchange rate of their currency

Just as what happened with Gemini exchange? It happens so many times on these exchange websites when users open "buy" orders with a higher price and that results in the exchanges setting the bitcoin price higher.
However, this manipulation does help the prices to change atleast else the price would be stable.

That's the fact because regulation is important for everyone because its the set of algorithms which is created to keep us secure.

So... You would like an unregulated, implicitly criminal exchange (because AML laws, as a minimum would have to be based in some Somalisan), which doesn't verify users, that you can trust?

Manipulated is a very broad term. Of course the popular opinion gets very manipulated, just look at the bunch of clueless people being guided as sheep with the promise of a bigger block size with no tradeoffs. This is laughable. Im just hoping the hard fork doesn't happen because that would be a disaster.

Of course it's manipulated!! If fiat financial markets are already subjected to many kinds of frauds (being regulated by FED and similar institutions), a decentralized market with so many powerful players is a sweet playground for manipulators and pump&dump agents.

Could not understand the question correctly .Manipulation on whose end? Core Developers? End Users ? Major Exchanges ? I feel no,it can't be manipulative since its pretty much transparent with the latest updates to the end users.Though I'm not sure about the High end investors.

in my opinion it might be manipulated a little bit as people can move the price by putting a lot of funds in it though it can not be manipulated too much as they would need a lot of money

I think BTC's just a poor boy, nobody loves him. It's just a poor boy from a poor family, spare its life from this monstrosity.

And, it's largely manipulated. ;D

Manipulated or not, this is not what matters about Bitcoin. It's about the novelty, the technology and the world that it will change...

We need to get back to this point.  OP, you need to define what you are talking about, because if not this is going to be a continuous thread about complete nonsensical debating.

Is Bitcoin's price being manipulated?: Obviously.  There are people who do this stuff for a living.  They were very early adopters who got Bitcoins for peanuts.  They wait until the bitcoin's prices stagnate for a good little while and then dump a good amount of coins, which causes panic selling, then they buy back at a cheaper price and pocket the profits.  This is a widely known thing.

Are bitcoin miners manipulating things?:  This is a more interesting debate, tbh.  There are some good arguments being made that they are, and the big time mining farm operations are starting to run their organizations like a government, or maybe more accurate, like a union would.  They debate about what the block sizes, fees, and that sort of  thing... and threaten if they don't get their way, they will "protest" and stop their mining, which leaves the blockchain vulnerable and less secure.

But until then, I'm not voting on such a thing because I don't know what I'm voting for.

Every currency, fiat or crypto and every commodity is manipulated to one degree or another.

The us government even has a special organization to manipulate fiat. its called the CENTRAL BANK.

Decentralization is relative. More decentralization = less manipulation.

yeah but one encourage inflation the other deflation, so the manipulation of bitcoin, is actually benefical in some way, the one from the market is essentially scamming

I think everything related to value have some kind of manipulation behinds it, weather it was manipulated for it's price / value, or it was manipulated to become a scarce resource, or it was manipulated within the legalities..
everything is..

It's mainly the news articles that affect bitcoin prices and hence the more these news articles write about bitcoins, the higher the price is. The ebst thing about bitcoins is that it can be manipulated in terms of price but it's a negative fact as well as one bad move and the price drops by $100-$150. This doesn't happen in other markets.

Yes has most of the answers!
Does this mean that Satoshi original plan failed?

Any market is manipulated by someone,usually news make the market react buying or selling.With bitcoin its happening the halving had made already the price of bitcoin jump from the 300 to almost 500 dollars,and people still expecting it to boost even more the price ,the thing is the pump or manipulation has happened already soo the halving may result into a loss or into a short time at 500 dollars again and return to the 300 again were it stable for a long while.

no it is not manipulated at all in my opinion because the price is depended only on people and nothing else can impact it

No, just the pool question is asked in a way to favour yes option, because every coin is manipulated to some degree. But you cant compare Bitcoin price manipulation with some ultimate manipulated pump & dumps on some altcoins...

Manipulated or not as crytpos evolve, manipulation becomes less possible because of greater decentralization. Decentralization is a process. ANd that is what the governments fear.

Can you mention a commodity or currency that is not manipulated?

Of course it's manipulated. How else would things go on? All coins are manipulated. Even fiat.

Unfortunatelly I'll have to agree. Yes Bitcoin is a manipulated coin. it is manipulated by a small group of Devs and a small group of traders.
Bitcoin is becoming centralized and we will need a new coin that can be truly decentralized.

I've been actually reading some stuff on the altcoin section where there is a coin (aeon) who's core dev (Smooth) is implementing a type of "ASIC resistant" mining technique that lowers the possibility of centralization... It's called "smart mining" and it allows any type of low powered computer, whether it's a laptop or even possibly a phone can start mining and only is "turned on" when connected to a power source.  But essentially it lowers the hash to such a level that's automatically determined to not burn up/ruin the computer your running the smart mining OS on, or won't drain an insane amount of electricity/energy.

This will allow anyone to be able to start mining, whether it will get you anything out of it or not.  I really haven't looked more into it, but it sounds like a really cool idea to me; because the level of centralization and barrier to enter the mining space is a real problem that should be addressed by bitcoin devs.

In my opinion all is manipulated, gold, fiat currencies and cryptocoins. Central banks manipulate fiat, big inversors and central banks manipulate gold, and bitcoin users with big amounts of bitcoins can manipulate bitcoin price. If bitcoin grows its base of users (inversors) could be less manipulate.

We are pretty much just repeating each other now. We get that all coins are manipulated. So stop saying that.

Every currency is manipulated imo. Bitcoin is no difference.

Did you make that post just to troll me? I just posted that everyone knows every currency is manipulated.

Quite sure it is manipulated coin so 80% can agree  ::)

yeah, I acknowledge all that has a value price. have fluctuations and can be manipulated.
but it is difficult to manipulate fiat I think.
in contrast to bitcoin, no regulation and bitcoin is decentralized, so nothing is set bitcoin
This is easier to manipulate the price

Of course it is a manipulated coin but the more it is getting popular the more it is chaotic and hard to manipulate...

Bitcoin is smaller market cap (MKP)

What qualifies as manipulated and what qualifies as 'free market'? Or are they the same thing? I think we are at the mercy of a small number of people but that's the same as a ton of other markets too.

Exactly - in a way BTC is a replica of the real world; I've read here somewhere that something like the wealth of the first 60 richest people in the world is equal to the rest of the money held by all other people in the world. Makes you think.

Yes indeed. That is the extent of the manipulation in the world. BTC is just a part of it.

Manipulated, are you reffering to the price of bitcoin or the usage?

The price for sure due to up and down changes recently and was happened too fast

Problem in manipulation are those stupid journalist that can trigger crash with negativity in their columns. And every crash follows again fast pump. Average person who don't like to trade also don't like volatility of btc. This cousing slowering adopion..
https://btcvol.info

Of course we all just love this kind of manipulations..
If all this madness stops we will use bitcoin like money but never more like investment..
But when will stop? I think never. ::)

of course we all love the manipulations as long as we are on the winning side and not watching our investment go cheaper and cheaper. you would curse manipulators if you lose a cent, just look at altcoin section and you'll see.

also about the stop part, i gotta say i believe that it is going to get better eventually and the huge rise/falls are going to become small changes in the market.

Bitcoins is a manipulated coin and people are doing business from the same theory. Wherever there is a gain we must adopt it, no need to think about too much. If its giving benefits then we must say its a real money for us.

price could be manipulated but bitcoin itself I have a strong doubt about it...
even the "code" is free and every one could "manipulate"... every one means = no one ;)

What do you mean by being manipulated? There is no way that any economic asset is NOT being manipulated in this day and age.
Every currency is manipulated whether you are talking about FIAT money or cryptocurrency. With FIAT government and central bank are controlling money by quantitative easing.
And in crypto world we have whales who own huge percent of bitcoin and therefore can effectively manipulate its price.

I personally am curious what will happen when mining will stop. Then the real war and manipulation will begin.

Gemini, Coinbase, Circle and Itbit were regulated last year. I think they are the only regulated exchangers. How do the BTC users have funded their accounts until then? By using UNregulated exchangers.  :)
Also, so called big exchangers like BTC China, Okcoin, Huobi, Bitstamp, Btc-e are NOT license so are not regulated. Do you know where is BTC-e office? :)

More than 90% from BTC market is not "regulated". IF  the most exchangers will have financial license, BTC value will drop to almost zero because the black market(more than 85% from BTC) is not interested to share personal information and they will migrate to other e-currency like they did it in the recent past from Liberty Reserve or from E-gold    :)  

this probably because some of trader do make a group or association to pump or dump btc prices, its just my opinion, and i feel it like conspiracy

1. Guy complains that "lack of faith in [exchanges] makes it very hard to go long on bitcoin."
2. I suggest Gemini, which is regulated and backed up the wazoo, to calm his fears.
3. You chime in, suggesting that bitcoin traders are money launderers  don't wanna be linked to the overpriced drugs/child porn they buy with bitcoins  rather privacy conscious.
4. I respond by subtly hinting that bank-like trustworthiness is exceedingly rare in institutions breaking KYC/AML laws.
5. And here ya are, and it's a beautiful day. Well. I just don't understand it.

there are other factors involving in it too.
for example the bad news that is being spread sometimes through different websites that creates a chain reaction of panic sells or panic buys which both can drive the market in different directions.

Bitcoins is a manipulated coin same like some how other currencies. if we believe that this is a real currency then I am hundred percent sure that one day people will try to buy and sell everything with bitcoins only.

Agreed. And you don't have to believe. It is money. I've bought things with bitcoin. There are actual e-stores that sell for bitcoin. If it's not real money than what are we all doing here? Playing?

Considering the DDOS-es and the number of sockpuppet accounts around here, hell yeah its manipulated.

But it gets harder and harder, so the free market will prevail!

it is a little bit manipulated as people can move the bitcoin price if they have a lot of money for that

I agree to your opinion, but it is not manipulated IMO.

Whales can absolutely control the price of bitcoins, and then with a forced change, they can start to gain a huge profit themselves. The rich get richer, but the rest have to anticipate what the hell is happening.

no it is not, governments can not change it price and no one can actually do that so it is not manipulated

Its true that bitcoin is some how a manipulated coin because the rate of bitcoins is always getting affected.

yes it is actually manipulated, and thats not a good thing, in my opinion people who have a lot of money can have impact

off course it ease.

Its market cap is still relatvely small, so few whales can manipulate its price.

Most bitcoin trading is done on chinese exchanges, so its price is controlled by chinese whales and exchanges.

Most mining power comes from china, so they control which transactions to confirm, what fees are too low and which are good enough. Because of that, they also have major say whether we will have 1MB blocks, 2MB blocks or anything else.

Bitcoin core development is controlled by a company called Blockstream. So they develop core in a why its best for them, not necessarily bitcoin community. 

Lol. It is either manipulated or it is not, there is no mid way here.

Manipulation in any kind of currency (fiat or crypto) is an undeniable reality, and proportional to the centralization of such currency in the hands of few groups.

yes true. each group and even each person is actually able to manipulate. moreover they are supported as those that influence every decision.

i think it is manipulated because a millionaire can come in and easily raise the price by buying a ton of coins. although they might end up losing money, which is why i guess people dont do this already.

Well im curious about those new coin aeon and the concept looks to be fair to all with or without a machine worthing 5000dollars or above,but i really believe that we need just a coin that all can have lets say 500 coins and then those coin will be staked daily or yearly with a max number of coins,there already coins working similiar but they give advantage to big holders soo they kill the currency easy.

Yeah, PoS just doesn't work and is completely bullshit in my mind... It's just a smart way of reorganizing the way the blockchains can confirm in a way, where in all reality is just a ponzi scheme hidden within the code.  It's just not a comprehensible form of confirming transactions and not as thoroughly researched as PoW is.  No body should be "entitled" to X amount of coins, because where would the actual value come from?  Just from holding a coin, which in turn gives no purpose of actually spending the coin itself, so all there will be is empty block upon empty block?  It just doesn't really make sense to me at all.

im agree if btc is manipulated

Well all crypto coins are manipulated ,whales always will pump a coin on a week and then left it,these happend to bitcoin this year already they joined and made bitcoin reach almost 500 dollars ,all of those were based into the halving that is very near.

what whales? :))

the "whales" are the exchangers and their investors who control the whole BTC market. The exchangers are running bots and they can rise or drop the BTC price how they want. MT Gox did the same and there proofs that others do the same.

Nope I don't think so, it's affected alright but by the majority buying or selling so it is controlled by the majority of people opinion...

please try to search more about that. "Bitcoin manipulated price" MTgox price manipulated. OKcoin fake volumes... and so on :)

i vote NO,bitcoin not created for manipulation,and even some people or few grup try to manipulate it,i think its can be specified that bitcoin is manipulated coin,i believe bitcoin create for future payment and alternative currency.

miners are whales, they have accumulated at least 100k coins in all those year, and everyone with that amount is a whale

also early adopters are not out of the game yet, i'm sure there is still someone with plenty of coin, 50+ or 100k+

Exactly, bitcoin is not a manipulated coin but it is getting manipulated by few bunch of people around us, whether it is press, media or may be Government, they are manipulation bitcoin as they view bitcoin as a threat to their system.

I vote yes because many things can manipulate the price.  Most things being traded are manipulated to a certain degree as is wallstreet.

yes, most probably it is a manipulated coin because people can impact the price by buying and selling

miners want the cash not shit. they are buying their houses, cars, gold, more houses, whores with cash not with Bitcoin. maybe they own some BTC but not a lot...would you keep 50K BTC? come on! let's not be hypocrites. The goal is the cash.
Bitcoin is just an opportunity for miners and they know that very well. They will suck all the money they can from this biz and that's it :)  Once the shit will stink, they will close everything and end of story.

I hope you don't believe that the miners are fairies with a lot of good intentions and that they care about "BTC community".  They just need a community to reach their goal; same with exchangers.
How do they maintain this community ? Through forums like this one, through media like Coindesk and so on... :)

Everything is around the "CASH", nobody gives a fuck about Bitcoin itself :)

Ah, it's a good description of everything I think...

But fact is that they can't just "close the shit down" can they?

Yes they gonna suck everything they can, but then? If they close everything, they lose the initial investment, which means the price of the gears they're using!
Why just throwing it? That means at least until they don't LOSE money they'll keep running them.

You can't exactly manipulate it too much.

've been vote,and i said yes,bitcoin is manipulated coin,some exchage and developer,is the main actor. they can manipulate the price of bitcoin,the amount of bitcoin in some countries also cn manipuated by them,but i never care with manipulate, as long i can earn and trade bitcoin ;D

I don't know maybe some of those manipulation is not a bad thing at all.
Imagine if price go only up up, in one moment of time will stop rising and naturally will start to decline.. How to stop this decline? Only with manipulation, fast buy 500btcs and price will rise again.

well that's is debatable, i guess soem miners do like bitcoin and believe in it, if bitcoin will be vastly adopted it's there that the interest for it will increase

it's not that people don't give a shit about bitcoin, it's that it can not be used on par like fiat that's the problem, otherwise i would argue that they will not give a shit about controlled money

Same is the case for me as I don't mind a little fluctuation or manipulation with regards to the price. A huge fall can create a chaos as it could imply that bitcoins would possibly never rise and meet the fate of litecoins in 2015 which I don't want.

Bitcoin is not manipulated coin.
Bitcoin price on the market is going to be manipulated. And this is done using standard trading methods.

Wait, what? ???
Bitcoin's price is manipulated, but the coin itself is not. Whales manipulate the price and we little minnows are glad to bite onto their traps, causing further disturbances in the prices.