Bitcoin Forum

http://www.cryptocoinexplorer.com:4750/chain/Freicoin?count=2016

And how many of those does Maaku own?

 :D

5% eventually?

That's so many coins it makes no sense.

That assumes he did not mine any coins. So no I would not doubt if he has 3-7 million FRC.

It's not too late, smoothie. You could own some too.

freicoin devs probably altogether own 1m-2m coins outside foundation, and 7m coins inside foundation.

But the more serious issues are they chose to:

1) Start difficulty from 1.
2) Not announcing the release on bitcointalk but rather showed up a few days later after a bitcointalk member started a thread to sell frc and block chain was already close to 10k blocks (2.5m miner coins + 5m foundation coins).

As a result there are a lot more low difficulty coins and the network hash rate ramped much slower initially than other coins. This allowed the devs more chance to claim the initial 2.5m of miner coins.

I cannot determine that these are not deliberate decisions and symptoms of too much greed (together with 80% high tax rate for the foundation). Doesn't inspire confidence in the future prospects of foundation management at all.

On the plus side they have been fairly diligent and patient answering questions on bitcointalk since, so I will still give them some benefit of the doubt.

Total coins in miner's hands are only around 2 million, do you actually think developers took between 50% and 100% of ALL the mining?  Please do at least a SMATTERING of research before you start throwing numbers around which amount to libel and slander, examining a Block-chain explorer would immediately show your numbers to be non-sense.

Their has been a P2P pool that anyone could join from the first day and professional miners have been piling on from the start, all the developers have been using their PC's to mine and were pushing into the minority virtually immediately.  People who have been paying attention to the threads posted here by our core dev team nearly a year ago and who read our public forums and participated in the numerous live beta testings we conducted for several months prior to launch indeed had a head start on other people, it is impossible to inform everyone of the start of a new coin but because you didn't get a singing telegram dose not mean we have been secretive or monopolistic.

Block rates have been consistently faster then desired up until the last difficulty jump, In hindsight a higher maximum difficulty jump should have been employed or a faster difficulty recalculation, FRC has grown in 2 weeks what took BTC 2 years, much faster then we had anticipated.

Kind of hard for the community of miners to start mining if they don't know about it until like days after eh? This is the equivalent to PREMINING FRC.

Solidcoin?

When you say "PC" do you mean CPU?

My Nvidia Graphics Card does 60MH/s. We've been outclassed from the very beginning.

Wrong. There are around 3.5m miner coins now. The 80% figure is over the entire first 3 years. But initially miners get about 1/3. I think devs and insiders probably got about 25-50% of those 3.5m. That's just my opinion, no need to get worked up before you even understand how much coins are out there.

In the interest of fairness, I did some preliminary research on this subject:

The chain officially started 12-21-12 @ 21:00 (Cryptocoin explorer time)  http://www.cryptocoinexplorer.com:4750/block/000000005b1e3d23ecfd2dd4a6e1a35238aa0392c0a8528c40df52376d7efe2c (http://www.cryptocoinexplorer.com:4750/block/000000005b1e3d23ecfd2dd4a6e1a35238aa0392c0a8528c40df52376d7efe2c)

The Freicoin start date was announced before then (12-18-12), though not in a fresh thread but in a thread titled " Is this idea to counter lost bitcoins possible?"

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=131101.msg1407151#msg1407151 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=131101.msg1407151#msg1407151)

The First original thread appears to be a thread titled    "FreiCoin (FRC) discussion (was FreiCoin (FRC) for TRC, PPC, LTC or BTC)" on Dec 23 2012.
 
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=133020.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=133020.0)

Note these are just in reference to BitcoinTalk forums,  not Freincoin's official forums or github.

Block 6850 is close to the time the Dec. 23 thread was started.

At that point ~5,119,730 FRC had been mined.

Using the 80% figure, that means ~4,095,784 FRC went to the foundation and ~1,023,946 FRC went to the miners. Thank You Sunny for pointing out the correct ratio.

Using the 750 coin (~250 for miners and ~500 for the foundation), ~66.7% to the foundation and ~33.3% to the miners.

 ~3,414,859 FRC went to the foundation and  ~1,704,870 FRC went to the miners.

I am neither endorsing or condemning FRC, I just wanted to get some numerical facts out before this thread goes too far off it's rails.   :D

Shouldn't use the 80% figure to derive miner coins as that's a running total after 3 years. Initially each block generates about 500 foundation coins (constant for about 3 years), 250 miner coins (miner coins gradually reducing each block). So miner coins about one third of the total.

I just want to add other public announcements:

http://www.freicoin.org/freicoin-release-thread-t73.html

https://twitter.com/timoncc/status/280726434027302913

https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rippleusers/DQ3Qp2JDucY/discussion

Also, take a look at the beta thread:

http://www.freicoin.org/freicoin-beta-testing-t34.html

If you search earlier you may even find a plan for launching on September or something.

You can believe or not, but I've not mined a single freicoin. I'm just happy buying some of them at prices I think are low. If you're reading this, you're an early adopter.

I'm expecting them to be... say 7 Million
by the end of the year due to demurrage :P

For every post like the bolded text 1000FRC bump another 0.1 btc :D im doing good to keep my ~1000 to sell them 50 btc lol
What i hate is that i have to mine all the time for them to stay static

Also about the 80% that you keep, i havent really seen a faucet or something (from the "foundation") to keep this coin flowing, you just keep it for yourselves hoping to get some value.. AND THAT IS BAD
Start giving it to people

After this thread they started up their own forum:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=89843.0

I don't blame them given that they were abused pretty relentlessly by the same folks that time around too.

I know that I found them via a bitcoin reddit post about their main webpage about a month before launch. The 12-21-12 date was pre-selected and everyone participating in the beta or following it's progress should have been aware. I rejoined the bitcoin world in August, so I missed them the first time through, but others don't have that excuse for not paying attention to the project.

Keep your "scale-height" difference in mind too. Because FRC has 100M coins, the generation curve is ~5 times as tall. Since 12-21-12 the launch phase has caused ~100 blockchain-days to elapse, and there was a massive boom during that time. We also have run through Maxed out difficulty changes are done now, moving from 4096 to 9772, so we have closed the massively accelerated phase. Let the sour grapes commence.

I shudder to think how much more interesting this would have been post-ASIC...

Faucets are something I'll be advocating for, but were not going to distribute any coins until the foundation is set up and everything is done according to a defined procedure which sets clear limits on what can an can not be done.  Even something like a faucet needs rules on how it will be conducted.  Were certainly going to prohibit any managers from transferring funds to themselves, but their are a whole mess of bylaws that need to be discussed, written down and scrutinized before coins start flying around.  Come to our forums and describe the kinds of rules YOU would be satisfied with.

LOL the ironic thing is who holds the coins now? That would be the equivalent of your statement already. This is the essence of centralization and why it is bullshit.

Am I reading this right - the majority of coins are going to a foundation that hasn't even been set up yet?

Isn't that kind of the wrong order to do things in?

+1

Have you ever participated in a club or other group that has a local board and bylaws? City Council? County, State, or Federal government? If you think the players in any of those games all trust each other, you have another think coming.

You are advocating an approach of NO trust, is that the position that the developers have earned? There will never be a successful project without someone, somewhere that at some point during the process has full access to something critical (even if that someone is a computer agent, it's still being trusted.)

Maaku has said at least 5 times (that I have seen, most likely more)  that the keys are in a safe location to be given to the foundation once it forms. Treating this like he has personal access to a live wallet and is willing to spend them freely is disingenuous at best, but more likely an absolute, bald-faced lie.

Take the troll-stick out of your ass for a bit and quit whining about the same stuff (incorrectly) over and over.

Wow, has the history of Bitcoin totally been forgotten? How many times as an absolutely secure private key gotten stolen and users lose all their coins? Sorry if some of us are bitching about it, but everyone knows this place is scam city. We have to be hyper-critical of these things.

"There will never be a successful project without someone, somewhere that at some point during the process has full access to something critical"

But most other crypto-currencies are the exact opposite of what you are saying. Satoshi only had "full access" to bitcoin while it was still in his head. Once he open sourced the protocol it was free and no one had centralized control. Thats the whole point- to build a system where you don't need to trust anyone.

And? How many times do you need to repeat that?  What about a fully democratic system where the entire user base is afforded a large share of the decision making or if you will great share of the currency? Maybe if you look at this not as a deficit rather as positive you can see the potential for this to work as a liberating factor for the currency. Even if it modestly adopts some new way of distributing the coins democratically, not based on usury like you advocate, or the nepotistic-cleptocracy that your limited imagination seems to have for the foundation. Clearly, what we want is neither and all were are asking is it possible to get a better model or template to build from for an even better currency next time.

Anyhow moaning about it and not offering any suggestions really gets us know where. At some point you just have to ignore the baby crying in the bedroom and let it fall to sleep so the grown ups can get on with their evening. Might want to read a little more in depth about the theory and then also help the FFoundation write the rules and formulate ways to dispense the trust democratically. How many more posts can you write that are same thing anyhow... are you not interested in finding alternatives and bettering currency or are you simply of the opinion that you and a select few should get to build the biggest baddest machine and you get to hoard the coins and watch them grow in value till you all are Freicoin millionaires? That is the real greed... the real problem is that very fact people like yourself have little or no imagination of the potential if you get this to work. There are alternative solution that actually are democratic and could help usher in a better world, seriously no bullshit there, and not through foundations with a small board but through a community working together to find a solution and to accept all ideas and opinions a participatory economy and society. What you advocate is the status quo and the person with the biggest fastest most cost efficient mining rig should win. Very very limited scope and perspective.

You just proved my point. There is always a "trusted party" in something like bitcoin at some point in development. The trust might only be IRC deep, but it was still trust.

Now we have a small group of folks who have been consistently talking about their plan to have a temporary bootstrap and then get out of the way. It might be different than the approach Satoshi took, but the intent is the same. Handle initial distribution according to the plan that gained consensus, and then step out of the way. At a minimum you have to trust a developer to WANT his project to succeed, which may not be true in all cases, but generally is the case, especially for the "True Believer" types which are present.


The repeated accusations of the most base intentions possible are counterproductive, and as has been said many times, misplaced in the wrong forum, to try to improve FRC. Vote with your coins! Hold FRC or don't, but the BS and misinformation campaign is just making a lot of people look like asshats, not oracles.

How do you propose making decisions with this fractious bunch without some sort of executive body? This body is not acting like a cohesive community, it's more like a troll zoo. I understand in some cultures the drive to consensus is important enough it subsume individual desires, but that is not universally true, especially here.

The other difficulty is that most of the potential user base for this coin does not know or care it exists. How should we convince people that they want to use a currency before it exists enough to get them to participate in the decision making process? You, I and many others who have not been involved in the (over 1 year long) development process for the concept and code missed our opportunity to set the rules for this coin, asking for them to change their principles now and alter their path is a bit of an insult.

"You might run with the money, and we don't trust you, but we want you to slavishly obey our demands for your own creation" is not exactly the most persuasive of arguments.

Participatory Politics and a number of proposals I have made are worthy of a look on the issue in the FFoundation threads. Unfortunately the devs didn't really work out much of anything for this foundation prelaunch and in some ways that is ideal if you ask me that way we can develop hopefully and as quickly as possible a system that allows for fractious and antagonistic stakeholders to be involved as much as they want to be and that is democratic at it's core.  There is always apathy in any given system particularly political. Look at US elections nearly 50% didn't vote who were eligible to do so. If people MINE and don't want to get involved then they can't really bitch about it then can they? But there are some ideas already posted to help this at least get started towards something that is not a USURY or CLEPTOCRATIC grab for special interests.

I am part of the community I hold freicoin and I have mined some freicoin woot 3 total. So I have a stake however small in seeing Freicoin move forward. The RULES for the coin are in place because they are trying an EXPERIMENT to tweak and change the nature of cryptocurrency, so if you don't want to participate, as many have said before, you can decide not to mine, trade or even talk about it. I suspect that you are here as others is because you have a vested interest maybe infinitely small like mine but still a stake in the FRC. Why do you care?

Well let's talk about that while we are setting up the FFoundation. Unfortunately those same individual desires are often used to segregate and marginalize those who didn't adopt early or didn't get in with the technocrats from the start or say have a huge mining rig at the start either so simply give up right? Just don't try? The idea is not to say oh let's just screw it we can't change human nature... the idea here is what if you can build a system that is truly democratic. You are falling into the same trap... can't do it... it is impossible... human nature etc etc etc. The problem is there is evidence that this form of currency has worked before and even though this Foundation Trust has not been handled ideally there is hope that it can potentially generate a real change. Do you want to participate or not? Simple as that right? I don't understand why so many people see only the potential downside when you have a great opportunity to be involved in something that could be different. I could be wrong, they could pocket all the freicoin and screw us all over but as long as I can have a seat at the table to talk about it then I will. Why don't you join us?

Scrybe most if not all of this is not replying directly to you but rather I was trying to pile on and agree with how you see this clowns continually rundown the coin without very much in the way of constructive critiques. I suggest a real look at the economics of the REAL world and how marginalized most of the human race is today would be a great starting point for a lot of these people who sit comfortably in their rooms staring at a computer screen sheltered from any number of horrors that human beings face daily. There is something a little more tangible in making an effort with this currency. It has real potential to move cryptocurrency further. The devs of the coin I get the sense understand this... if they screw this up they would be world premiere douchebags to waste the potential of this coin. Time will indeed tell but so will our involvement.

If you build it... they will come... is that too optimistic an approach for people to get behind FRC? Not sure but the FFoundation could be instrumental in keeping this coin from the ash heap. Maybe putting ideas to forum in the foundation thread would be more productive. I have already had to copy and paste some of you comments there Scrybe.

Actually the forum started long before, after some bitcoiners agreed that demurrage could be a good thing on this thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=36450.msg472029#msg472029

I stand corrected, maybe I should have said "quit trying to fight the trolls and used their own site almost exclusively."

I kept talking on the deflation thread and mentioned freicoin from time to time on other threads when it was relevant. But, yes, this subforum was specially exhausting, even for me: someone used to disagree with the majority even in eccentric circles.

You're right overall, just wanted to make that little clarification.