Bitcoin Forum

A few weeks ago, there was a proposal from 3 lone members of the European parliament, but it's much more serious now with this proposal. It's coming straight from the European Commission in Brussels:

Virtual currency exchange platforms can be considered as 'electronic' currency exchange offices that trade virtual currencies for real currencies (or so-called 'fiat' currencies, such as the euro). On the other hand, virtual currency wallet providers hold virtual currency accounts on behalf of their customers. In the 'virtual currency' world, they are the equivalent of a bank offering a current account. They store virtual currencies and allow for their transfers to other wallets/virtual currency accounts.

There is a growing consensus in Europe that virtual currency exchange platforms should be subjected to 'know-your-customer' rules under the Fourth Anti-Money Laundering Directive, which will have to identify and verify the identity of the person exchanging virtual currencies for real currencies and vice versa.

No more anonymous transactions in Europe. That's their goal.

Hmm. I'd love to see how that would work. Any exchange with conventional banking can be exterminated any second. I wonder what the line is between supplying wallet software and being considered a wallet provider/ host. 

Blockchain.info might get some heat from the EU if these proposals go further. If the EU is already describing it as the equivalent of a bank then regulation of online wallets might be on the cards. How long is the average time between the EU proposing something and legislating?

Well, this idea is a part of a global Action Plan to strengthen the fight against terrorist financing. With so many people afraid in Europe, politicians may feel obliged to act fast, even if without any hard facts against BTC. I guess there's a need for some BTC lobbyists in Brussels.

if your going to touch FIAT. expect to be asked for your life story. remember they need to monitor the devil (FIAT) if they want to control the devil(FIAT).

this has nothing to do with bitcoin and is standard world wide mindset of all governments of their devilish currency (FIAT)

And that my friend is why i use paper wallets and store my own keys.   ;D  The exchanges future looking like its gona be filled with a lot of paper work, and bean counters

It sounds like atleast the people will be able to avoid these centralized institutions such as exchanges and still be able to freely own and use there BTC in any way they wish anonymously as long as that doesn't include using an exchange.

As long as they don't make it illegal to own/use unregistered BTC/addresses then things aren't so bad.

Even if they do make it illegal there is nothing they can do to stop people from using it, only apply penalties after the fact. 

If this goes foward will be seen with a lot of suspicion from all bitcoin community. I don't think those attemps to subvert the very decentralized and unregulated nature of cryptos will suceed.

Is the wallet in my back pocket, which holds my credit cards & cash, equivalent of a bank offering a current account?
Should I have the government insure my back pocket from theft and etc?

This is crazy. They may be able to regulate exchanges, but wallet software is too stupid.

This is just great news :(
A few months ago they were saying it was tax-free now this.

That would suck if it is implemented. Ruins one of the points of using bitcoin. Regulating wallets are just dumb.

But there is no way to actually regulate it if it's not related officially to the financial market, right?

As long as it's segregated from traditional fiat services, regulations should not be able to touch crypto economy!

Doesnt Brussel got more important stuff on their agenda?? I mean yea of course th
ye want to  get this sorted but there are many more  and far greater things the EU could focus on.

do you have a link dude
cheers

You must be new here. Welcome to Planet Earth.

I'm afraid that is so.  All .govs seem to be cracking down (and relatively quickly at that).  Especially on moving wealth around in a quiet way.  It's very disturbing to those of us who value our LIBERTIES above all.

This is getting worse almost everywhere.  In Peru (where we have an auto parts import company), their tax authorities now require our company there to submit every Invoice (with details on EVERY line items we sell) to them on a spreadsheet via email.  Rather advanced and Orwellian for a place like Peru.

it's not dumb. the wallets store funds and even to the existing laws, they need a financial license.
now, they are out of law.

let's see what Wallets get it. let's see the so called "Bitcoin investors" now when they will need to pump money.
Are you a wallet or/and exchanger? OK! Take a financial license in EU or in other place and run your business in peace.
What's the big deal? :)

The clients will have the peace of the mind because they will be protected. A wallet or exchanger won't be able to disappear overnight if it has a financial license. So, everybody should sustain a such thing.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-terrorism-financing-idUSKCN0VB1N7

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-202_en.htm

No need for bit licences, just regulate as fiat.

Bitcoin going mainstream.

mainstream=regulation. there is NO other way.

But how can you regulate something that is impossible to regulate.

I mean sure you can put regulations on exchanges but guess what, new exchanges will be hosted in islands or some place where there are no regulations.

Or new technology like p2p exchanges that are decentralized will arise.

Also you can't regulate p2p transaction between private parties (for example you and me trade bitcoin for cash or you sell me something privately)

They want to regulate that but it's impossible, so regulating Bitcoin is a losing game.

Stop FUDing.

P2P + Open Source + Decentralization = Unregulatable

Mainstream + Unregulatable = Unstoppable

Want to Stop the Unstoppable? Send all world civilizations back to the 1700's.

Anxious to see how the community reacts to this.  This could be just another attempt to control Bitcoin that will have no effect, maybe short term but nothing long lasting.  The EU cannot rugulate a GLOBAL currency.

Stop being ignorant and living in a hipster dream :)

P2P + Open Source + Decentralization = Unregulatable = USELESS without exchangers. The exchangers must have financial license because there are laws regarding to that. Period! :)

Mainstream + financial LAWs = Financial license = REGULATION :)   See Coinbase, Itbit, and Circle who are already licensed? Why do they spend a lot of money for that? Do you think they are stupids? They know very well that without license, they cannot go mainstream and the police can close their business anytime.

world civilizations is based on laws. that's why you are where you are now, that's why you have internet, electricity and so on...because there are laws(good or bad).

you are free to live like an Amish if you want to be "independent" and "unregulated"

Bitcoin was created as a experiment in value and exchange OUTSIDE of regulation.
Are you saying that Bitcoin/bitcoin has failed because in order to become mainstream it must violate its original purpose?

You can not regulate Bitcoin/bitcoin. You can only regulate the on and off ramps.

If your concern is regulation and mainstream, I suggest you buy some Ripple.

Well, that's not exactly like that. In order to spread, bitcoin certainly needs exchanges. If exchanges are subjected to governmental regulations, then it's a serious threat for the growth of bitcoin.

In order to spread, no. Bitcoin/bitcoin was designed to spread via P2P.
If governments regulate the exchanges, you think that will stop adoption?

No, that will only stop a rapid mass adoption.
Bitcoin/bitcoin is designed to build over years if not decades.
Users will grow naturally over time with or without exchanges.

If you want your 1btc, to be worth 1million USD now, then yeah, you got a problem.
If you understand what the whitepaper's purpose is, then just sit back and watch them spin their wheels.

tell that to others and to "investors".... sit back and wait for decades :)

If others have been mislead by their own desires and own misunderstandings, that is their own fault.
Everything is in plain sight and anyone can research and understand the system.
If they just want fast turnover, maybe the "others" such participate in "Double Your Coin" scams.

If "investors" want to invest in layers on top of the Bitcoin protocol, that is their own desire and risk.
All "investors" understand that with all investments, there is risk of failure and losses.
True "investors" of bitcoin (the actual coin and not the other layers and systems), understand it will take time and mostly HODLing.

IMO Satoshi's original proposal intended mostly HODLing and time, thus the Halving Mechanism and 21M Coin Limit.

Bitstamp have been asking for KYC documents from customers for a while it's a standard procedure when moving money around online so it's not a big problem to get verified but the bad news is if online wallets start to ask for IDs it will be a big bother to move from one wallet to another this way.

My mistake. I forgot to add source. This come from here:

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-16-209_en.pdf

Check page 3.


I've heard about that. In several countries already, exchanges ask for a proof of ID and various stuff. But this isn't standard procedure in all European countries yet.  When I bought BTC via bitcoin.de, they only checked my bank account.

Any exchanger must be financial licensed according to the EU laws.
Bitstamp may ask any paper they want but it's outlaw because they are not licensed.  It's like you open a bank without license. You can open a website, you can say that you are bank and asking for documents and shits but it doesn't mean you are regulated. You are just an outlaw bank and nothing more; same with Bitstamp, BTC-e and others. They are unlicensed financial companies.

Wallets must be licensed too because they store/transmit (value) money

There are a difference between wanting to live without rules and regulations and just living with rules and regulations that does not turn into a Police state. The pseudo anonymity with Bitcoin is exactly the same as the cash you withdrawn from the ATM.

You can chose to accept cash from other people and stay anonymous or you can go to a ATM and have your photo taken and your bank account linked to that transaction. Bitcoin leave some evidence behind, which government agencies could follow.

If I force someone to open a bank account with all the legal papers, and I use that to transfer terrorist funding, who will find me? <They use innocent people to do their dirty work for them> They can do the same with regulated Bitcoin exchanges.

Let's be realistic, the system is full of holes. 

If you are a legitimate user of Bitcoin I don't think KYC will make such a big difference for you other than uploading your monthly phone bill. Your Facebook account contains probably more personal stuff than that ;D

In the UK KYC has a massive advantage for the exchanges.

They will be allowed to accept CC payment using the new Payment Systems Regulation.

Until now the 5 banks; Santander HSBC Natwest Lloyds and Barclays have denies all Bitcoin businesses merchant accounts.

You have had to go through those 5 banks for a merchant account (ask Fidor)

Now these banks are really annoyed, as the UK Government has said thats anti-competition and any business that conducts KYC AML should be allowed to process card payments.

In the EU though they have had no problem with merchant accounts.

Their merchants accounts will be closed soon due to the frauds. The merchants are interested to make due diligence otherwise they may face chargebacks and they will be bankrupted.
  If a merchant has over 7% frauds, their account is closed. It's most likely to happen in this business where 90% is black market(scams).

There is always a way. Bitcoin=internet, unless they block internet there is no way to regulate bitcoin without interference in bitcoin core protocol.
We just won't be using online wallets and regulated exchanges, there will be always BTC-e or some other similar exchanges.

Fallacy  - Banks create fiat currencies (not governments), Miners create Bitcoin not the exchanges.

Exchanges - this is all a load of bollocks.

Exchanges are temporary restrictions. When you can pay Bitcoin for a hot dog from a street vendor, you will have no need for exchanges. People should simply invest in updating the infrastructure of the real economy, and not on constructing temporary bridges.

Okay the hotdog vendor will accept bitcoins but when he gets said bitcoins and goes to the bakery to buy some buns for next day's batch or to the supermarket to buy sausages and they don't accept bitcoins there how will he manage that without the exchanges to turn into fiat? Everyone is so short-sighted with Bitcoins.

How do these KYC laws break down when it comes to dealing with some one with a more strict KYC deal?
To be honest I do not know the ins and out when it comes to this but would like to know more than not.
Seems like Canada will stay gray till it needs to get its ducks in the row,maybe with the TPP deal.

The question I ask is about potentially getting caught in a snare due to dealing with someone that has tyrant like state dealings.