Bitcoin Forum

hi there.

Im from Portugal, and im very new to this eco system.
I started investigating Bitcoin Mining a few weeks ago, and i think i need some help :)
As far i can see, the only (best) way of having some view able return is with an "antminer/avalon etc", computer eco system investment/hash needed to break the difficulty level, has low return of btc´s.

Anyway, we have to see all the picture, because as far i can see, this is a btc decimal win/lose.

And please correct me if im wrong.

I was making the calculations using two antminers, the S5 and the S7.

And now without thinking in PSU´s and all the hardware investment, like cooling and UPS, ethernet backup etc.

In Portugal and now speaking in USD not in EUR. An Antminer would consume 590W in 24h = 14160W. Will consume in 30 Days 424.800W Dividing by 1000 = 424.8kWh

Now our kWh (Killo Watt Hour) is priced as:0.111441 USD

So, 0111441US x 424.80kW=47.340USD

The Antminer S5 will Produce 1155GH/s that in this moment/difficulty will give around 0.10813907 BTC/47USD month beeing 24H a day Connected.

So.. profit on this is NULL.


Now the Antminer S7.

It uses 1210Watts H to produce 4.86TH/s
Monthly (30days)is 871.200Watts
Going back to my calculations, 871.200Watts / 1000 = 871.2kW  so 0.111441 USD X 871.2kW = 97USD.

Now at this calculation moment S7 should produce monthly 0.45502674 BTC /$201.71

Projected Profit 201.71USD minus 97USD electricity should expect to give me back something like 104.71USD.

Its my impression or this business is beeing taken by big companies? because the expected profit annual, is 1256.52USD (wihout counting with POOL % and coin fluctuation etc. So even in a year you will not pay the investment and will be harder and win less every time.

Im not here to say "this is a bad business" because in a corporate way yes.. its close to a Gold mine, and the equipment will have its value of sale after 1 2 years (if it get there).

But in a personal way. im seeing this in a bad way?, or since im new to this im getting the wrong picture? :) or is there other profitable way of getting a cut from the business?.

Thanks for your support and don´t take me wrong, im just trying to understand the "business".

There is always luck involved in mining. You could go solo and hope for a block that might never come, but yes, the s7 is not going to be profitable soon. I BEG OF YOU NOT TO BUY. People with electricity even at 0.1$/kwh are starting to lose the fight, and now you'll need to be patient and wait for the new bitfury chip that's uber-efficient or wait for bitmain to introduce an equally powerful miner. Otherwise, do not buy.

I'm not sure why everyone keep recommending to wait for the next gen. It doesnt matter, its not going to help.

If your electricity is too expensive now, its going to be too expensive later. When a new gen comes out in the grand scale this is what will happen;

-New miner comes out and is super expensive. But much more efficient than last gen. Yay your electricity costs are now low!
-People buy like crazy
-2 Months later the miner now sell for half as they did in Batch 1, difficulty has doubled, back to same profitability. Boo your electricity costs are now too high.
-Sound familiar enough?

Right now in Canada, I break even my Antminer S1's at local electricity costs and i need the heat anyways. My Antminer S5 % of income vs electricity cost is close to 50%. Take about 28$ per month to run for 1300 GH/s. It return theoretically 50$ per month right now.

Whell... So i wasn´t very far from what i expected :)

I this context i think i agree with VirosaGITS.

It seams that this business is more useful on the winter when you are cold and can have some BIG ASS ANTMINER to keep the room worm (while using some thing to cover your ear holes and ignore the noise), an use 40 to 50% to pay the electricity.
In my point of view, the investment on new equipment right out of production line, and pay the Bonus for being the new technology, may be an advantage, when you are the first one.

But for people like me and Virosa and others, we just need a piece of the cake. And that piece, cost us a lot. Because great companies are fighting for the mining at all costs. Maybe when S7 went out, they payed him in 5 months or 6, and the rest was profit, now they will buy a better one with more TH/s and will pay them in another 5 6 months, and we are now on E*b*a*y buying they scrap.   

I just wanna make some pocket changes , since BETFAIR was banned on this piece of  Sh** of country.....

Well for mining with 0.11$ i think you're SOL. You'd be better off buying miners and hosting them where the electricity is really cheap. There's not much to say. If you need the heat anyways, get some quiet S3's or something.

If you have a house with central heating, hack a couples of S7 or Avalon6's exhaust into your main vent. Since you'd be paying for the heating anyways, its a great plan. But comes the heat... unless your electricity is really cheap, you're right its going to be very hard to get a "piece of the cake".

Even hosting in a "remote place where electricity is cheap" would be a penny deal.
Since you would have always the price of the building, electricity, maintenance etc.
I do not know the percentages of the pool yet, but in paper the acquisition of an S7 is the best option and will bring you more return.

With the actual price of BTC, and if it kept in the 100USD profit, in 12 months should be payed.

Welp, it wont. Difficulty will continue rising and then there's the Bitcoin halving in a few months that will halve your return. I'm sure difficulty will go down a bit and there's good chance Bitcoin will go up, but its not going to compensate fully, theres no way, unless the Bitcoin price explode, but then its going to be another temporary gold rush.

But especially with the 0.1J/GH stuff coming out... and its actually already out for some... I think S7's are not a good deal unless you get them cheap.

Anyways, stable payout is not going to happen.

Getting hosting at 0.06$/kWh and get somethings like cheap S5 is by far your best chance to ROI before halving. After that point, its all very wild guesses.

In your POV with your know how, what should i do to get in now and get some part in return?
whats your best advice?. (if there is any point in getting in now).

Very hard to say. If you find a deal on the marketplace where its a bunch of S5's for example, for cheap, hosted and you run the math and would get ROI in 3~ Months on current income, then maybe.

If its something like 5+months ROI dont even bother, it would be too risky.

If you can find a deal for free or cheap electricity though, thats another story and it change the angle completely. If you get that, then we'll have a whole different conversation.

I could have a way of getting "free power" at least for 2 S7. more than that wold be tricky. But even that, in 6Months i would get only 2000. that is not even half of the investment. at 1.200USD plus PSU.
probably i should wait for the halving. and see what to expect. The halving is expected in 156 days. Until there....

That wouldnt be too bad at all if you get two S7 for 1440$. You could also try to get 5 S5 for 700$ total. Maybe 8 S3 for 400$ total.

I second (push for third) the motion on what VirosaGITS is saying. No matter how profitable they seem are today. The difficulty increase will eventually catch up. You can only hope that you get your ROI first before the increasing difficulty takes its toll on your earnings. It happened to a lot of people who bought S7 especially those on early batches.

Where do you get those prices from!?? In the EU an s3 used costs something like 300usd!!!

Lutzov: I ser the point of course. Profits trend to get lower. And comprensive about that.
I start to understand that, this is a question of strategy, balancing with care the costs and winnings.

Here, i guess? I'd sell you a S5 for less than that, so yeah, maybe the S3's were worth that much when they came out, but thats forever ago in Bitcoin term. And its still a long time ago in human years.

EU Vat's kill almost any deal on mining gear.  Just so high it adds to prices and makes your miners higher.  There are some that lie on VAT... but personally fraud is not something I would go for.

You are better off with a hosting center.  I will be cheaper than you electricity you pay, and also can find one with no/cheap vat.  So gear is cheaper and makes a huge difference all the way around.

Maybe i could sell him some S5's and ship them to Allinvain xD
I dont know what hosting price he could get but it would definitively be much better than buying one in Europe and running it. Afaik getting a miner there is super expensive and the electricity is prohibitive.

I have made some research on Hosting centers and the profit is not enough.
One i have researched asks for 300$ for 1000GH/s that at this moment in bitcoins will give in a month 280$.....

Right now your power needs to be $<0.03kwh or less to make any decent profit.

Any other price and you will most likely loss money, even if BTC rises. Just buy the coin directly or have your miners hosted at work or someplace where power is included in the lease.

Honestly you would be doing him a favor long term getting it in hosting center.  EU is just a hard place for miners.  High VAT's tacked onto miner costs.   Some countries have rediclous VAT/Import taxes.  And it normally is not cheap electricity in EU.

But on S5 need to have pretty cheap electricity price.  I sold all my last gen gear as I made more off sale vs mining it.   But if you have cheap electricity you should be in for some deals as last gen just get's cheaper.

unless you have super cheap electricity not so much, hell even with free electricity roi time is absurd, so i would avoid with current asic gen

you need to wait for the next gen the s7 is obsolete already if you did not roi in those months

I think that will depend on the price that S7 will be after new technology kick in.
Its true that is very expensive, and the ROI takes months to get the money back.
But is worst case scenario , if the new technology kicks in in the next 6 months and the S7 drops price near the S5, and even that the profits drop to 50% actual earnings (90usd a month) in 5 months would be payed. and then start wining some juice (with free power).
Getting big profits only is possible if you have the wallet to buy the latest gen ASIC when he gets out (if the racio is any good) pay it in the next 2 3 months and then let it drain as much as possible. Then sell it to starter miners :P