Bitcoin Forum

The title says it all, based on power consumption/load numbers being reported from the field, can anyone suggest a solution? ???

You want an UPS that can handle 4 of those Avalon monsters at once? Then "APC Matrix 5000VA/5KVA UPS" is the way to go. Or you could just buy 4 separate 1400VA UPSs.  If you want a rackmount solution then you want something like this: APC SmartUPS 1400VA ((SU1400RMXL3U).

I prematurely locked this thread and received a PM with some more useful info for future Avalon ASIC owners:


Thanks, bittenbob.

Looking on this unit: http://www.amazon.com/APSX1250-Inverter-Charger-12VDC-230VAC-outlet/dp/B000BCEOIQ

I wouldn't do a UPS for a bitcoin miner or any other power using application. Its kind of like putting a drill press on a UPS so your factory can keep operating and you won't "lose money."

Here are the levels of protection are called and the terms you should use in specifying them. You need to know what you are doing so you are not robbed, for example buying a Monster Line Conditioner.

1) MOV protection (http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/model.cfm?txtSeriesID=825&txtModelID=113) - this is probably good enough for the Avalon device. Make sure you pay attention to the joule rating of the MOV and that the device has some indication that it has "blown."
2) Ferroresonant Transformer (http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=70098601#tab=specs) - In industrial settings where MTBF is a concern they will use something like a Sola Hevi-Duty Ferroresonant Transformer. You can probably find this as "leftovers" from an industrial application on ebay for pretty cheap.  Here is a product which can run 8 Avalons for only 5,000$. This is a bargain compared to the installation price of a UPS for an Avalon.
3) Complete electrical isolation - I guess you could install a bank of lead acid batteries and an inverter as you would in an application where people's lives would be in danger, there is a risk of massive financial losses, or you have made guarantees to customers they will not lose service. Hashing bitcoins doesn't really fit into any of those categories AFAIK.

With all those prices I would say: go for a normal gas/diesel driven generator and plug it over manually if needed. in 4 months you wont need the usv anymore... just my guess


http://www.amazon.com/DuroStar-DS4000S-4-Cycle-Portable-Generator/dp/B004918MO2/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1361160014&sr=8-2&keywords=5kw+generator (http://www.amazon.com/DuroStar-DS4000S-4-Cycle-Portable-Generator/dp/B004918MO2/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1361160014&sr=8-2&keywords=5kw+generator)


you might even consider mining only with this generator in the beginning ;)

the units are 620W max, I mean the power supply shipped it's a 650 Antec, so buy UPS accordingly.

A UPS will increase your power draw as well.  It is probably not worth buying UPS for bitcoin mining.

Please note that this device simply dumps the utility line voltage onto your Avalon when utility line power is available. It is not a "UPS" in the sense most people understand it. It is simply a battery charger and a transfer switch. It provides no isolation and likely inadequate surge suppression.

Please keep in mind that you get what you pay for with power applications. The most important thing is to make sure you know what you are getting (please see reviews for the American Version) (http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-APS1250-Inverter-Charger/dp/B0007NOUBA/ref=pd_sim_sbs_e_1).

Also it is designed for 50Hz 230V operation. Is this appropriate where you live?

I believe this is online/double-conversion (AC->DC - DC->AC) inverter, so it have fully independent input and output.
As for 230V, yes, this appropriate for my location.

Hold on there, so if we want to expand to 4 bays we won't be able to use the stock PSU? That kind of makes the "hidden feature" pointless, doesn't it? Please forgive me if this has been addressed.

I'd like to know if a 650W was used for BF's unit. If so, great, nevermind. If not, OMGWTFBBQ.

No. It is not.

Again, please see the american version.. http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-APS1250-Inverter-Charger/dp/B0007NOUBA/ref=pd_sim_sbs_e_1

1000w psu was used in this application

What about voltage under run protection for those who don't have first world grids?

Do you think insufficient voltage/power would/could damage the units?

Normally people (here) would use only an auto voltage regulator.. But ive been through 4 motherboards in 6 years (with high end APC units for power conditioning/ups/avr).. So it's not really working out well.. At the same time, I've had a server in a near by datacenter for 2-3 years now without a single hitch, reboot, or issue.

The transformers here are shared. I wonder if I should fork out the 1000$ to get them to install a dedicated transformer for my house? Most houses nearby don't even have refrigerators, the transformer now is pretty much dedicated.

Wondering if I should also just get some sort of enterprise level power conditioning for my house. Any recommendations?

Oh, thanks for pointing to that... Will search for other online/double-conversion solution...

the unit that went to BF is enermax powered. revolution87+ model, 850 or 1000

https://bitcoinfoundation.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/2013-01-31_10-28-38_697.jpg

If you live in a 3rd world country and have serious power quality issues meaning your expected life of plugging in a UPS or computer equipment is measured can be measured in months I would recommend the ferroresonant transformer above. Make sure it is sized correctly to your load, and you have a remote enclosure & seperate power circuit to run it into your house. These devices are very noisy but will provide the power your utility company should be providing.

For people in 1st world countries without the above issues I would recommend a good MOV surge suppressor only. No UPS.

Most of the cheap UPSs out there operate on similar principles (maybe with better surge protection).

You need some deep cycle batteries and a good pure sinewave inverter, someting like an Outback VFX3524.  The inverter has a high capacity battery charger built in designed for operating from dirty generator power with possibly improper voltage or frequency, it would have no problem with your grid power.

http://ressupply.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/14030-01861.jpg
This lets you make your own UPS but much, much better quality and capable of running your rigs 24/7 if needed as long as you have enough battery or a source of DC power.  And bonus, now you can add solar panels very easy.  Just hook as many into you want into your batteries, the inverter will only draw grid power when it needs to keep the batteries from falling below a certain point and provide 100% clean power 24/7.  It would even have enough capacity left to run a computer or something even with 4x avalon running.

Are there any systems you're aware of that are designed to protect an entire structure? Since we're building a new house it would be nice if i could just condition/filter everything coming into our house. I would like to do so without batteries. I don't care if the power goes out, I just don't want it to damage my electronics when it's on or inbetween.

It would be really nice if I could just put a unit in between our power line and the distribution panel that is rated for 23KW (100A @ 230V) or so.

Edit:

Found this that appears to have some conditioning properties to it. But no isolation.

http://www.usesmfg.com/productlinertechnicalspecs.nxg

Third World Answer:

The ferroresonant transformer may be what you need. It appears the author of this paper (http://www.elect.mrt.ac.lk/CVT_ICIIS06.pdf) is quite taken with its application to his third world country of Sri Lanka. I'm not sure if the same applies to your third world country.

Another option is the battery bank with Outback, or similar power inverter & battery charger, someone posted above.

The trade-off is maintenance. Lead acid battery maintenance is a full time job. The ferroresonant transformers have a MTBF of 20 years and its not unheard of to see much older ones in service.

I would recommend segregating the protected circuits with expensive equipment versus your connections for lighting and plugging in the vacuum.

Good candidates for a ferroresonant transformer have a defining charactaristic - a constant load matched to the size of the transformer.

In either case with power as bad as you say, you must wonder if the above devices (ferroresonant transformer, inverter/battery charger) will be "popped" by your serious power quality issues.

You will, for sure, want the whole house surge suppressor discussed below.

First World Answer:

So the the basic problem here is that people have a new "baby" and want to protect it. So you proscribe a harmless placebo (plug in surge protector) to protect the baby from harm.

Your question is a different problem entirely, and correct solution is to have a whole house surge protector. You may want to consider this for any conductive utility services which leave your house (power, phone, cable tv coaxial cable, satellite dish coaxial cable) This is just one big MOV (metal oxide varistor).

You can condition and filter everything coming into your house, but your local Homeowner's Association may be concerned with what the installation of this device (http://www.repllc.net/pictures/HV%20capacitor%20bank.jpg) will do to their property value.

This is supposed to be a bite-sized version of this (http://www.repllc.net/pictures/HV%20capacitor%20bank.jpg) device.

Provided you order this box and it comes with actual electrical components inside I doubt you would be able to detect it doing much of anything to solve your problem. (http://nlcpr.com/Deceptions1.php)

What about a couple of these?
http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-LC1800-Conditioner-Outlet/dp/B0000514G8/ref=sr_1_29?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1361251572&sr=1-29&keywords=power+conditioner (http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-LC1800-Conditioner-Outlet/dp/B0000514G8/ref=sr_1_29?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1361251572&sr=1-29&keywords=power+conditioner)

APC also offers similar units.

I just think an industrial-type power conditioning setup would be overkill for a home user with 4 Avalons.

Found this, looks promising.

http://www.exactpower.com/

Isolation + UPS + Surge Protection + Conditioning

Would just need an automatic transfer switch to kick start my generator and i'd be good to go. It looks like it's designed for people who do pro-audio/video at home and get annoyed by the buzz in the background of all of their recordings.

I read a convincing argument once that whole-house protection is the only real protection there is and that trying to protect individual pieces of equipment was a waste of time. I have no link though so take that for what it's worth.

How much do you pay per kWh? Haven't you considered to have a datacenter hostin them (for around 400$/month?).

I see both of you are big fans of black boxes. You may be BFL customers who accidentally wandered into this Avalon thread about electrical power. I think the manufacturer's recommended power conditioning product for BFL is a Bloom Energy (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/06/21/884-May-Be-Bloom-Energys-Fatal-Number-Fuel-Cell-Efficiency-Federal-State-Tax-Credits) box.

Okay, I got curious as to what this one actually was and found this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrFFk4u_LJM

This guy looked at my list and said "I'll have all three."  ;D

Well close, he used a big transformer, but it doesn't serve the same purpose as the one I listed.

I don't care what color the box is as long as it does what it is advertised. If you must know, I have 1 unit ordered from everyone. The avalon is the only one I had shipped to my asian address because it's shipping from asia. I thought I would take this opportunity in this thread to discuss possible whole house solutions. I can't be the only person not in the US/EU receiving units who has major issues with electrical.

RE your last post, I contacted exact power but they wont even quote me since i'm outside the US. I told them "I still maintain a US residence, just quote me as a US citizen and I'll ship it here myself.". To which i received no reply (as of yet). Seems like there could be a market for providing whole home protection outside the US. In the video he says "20% of power problems come from outside the home". I wonder if those statistics include third world countries. I've had at least 2 of my dead motherboards get fried from lightning strikes near by.


The electric cost is like 0.20$KWH at my house.

Problem with the datacenters here is 800$/mbit bandwidth. There is a clause in the constitution here that says all businesses must be 60% owned by locals. The problem there is that when you have a population of people that can't afford to feed themselves it really limits growth. It does wonders for those few people who are in power... They have 90 million economic slaves at their finger tips.

Yes,but you could send the avalons directly to the datacenter, they will mount them and all.
This way you will not have to pay 800$/Mbit using a first world datacenter (here in Italy 3 years ago it was 100$/mbit, third world here).
Standard rates lately are as low as 0.5$/Mbit, just ask for a 10Mbps connection and 1TB of monthly transfer.

"Black box" means you don't know what is inside. It turns out that ExactPower's black box is what I was recommending.

You can get a whole house surge protector and a very good ground installed for ~$300.

Try starting there and see if it solves your problems.

His statistic of 20% of surges start outside the home is likely made up to sell more equipment to audiophiles. I think what he means to say is that surges aren't the only source of power problems. Many more are caused by bad house wiring.

Wait a second, what kind of power do these devices need anyway? Could they be run directly from battery (with a simple top-off charger running to supply the current)? Though I guess it would still need a UPS for the controlling computer.

Well, kinda sorta maybe.

They use an ATX power supply.  Probably most of the consumption is from the 12v rail, and I imagine they use the 5v rail too to power the USB hub and the wr703n.  I dunno if they use the 3.3v rail or not.

Even if you can use buck converters to make 5v and 3.3v if needed, it probably won't really work.  I think you'll find that the voltage supplied by the charger is sometimes too high, and is not regulated well enough.  It may send 14v or more when it's trying to charge, depending on its charge strategy.  You really need a proper constant voltage power supply.

Avalons are standalone, so you won't need a host computer.

It depends. Hopefully the devices themselves have some kind of regulation. Many things you plug in contain a 5V regulator and will happily run off quite a wide range of voltages.

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if that's what the Avalons themselves do. Though they likely use the 5V rail from the PSUs. I don't see that they probably have much use for 12V. Do not take any actions based on this without verifying for yourself though. Standard disclaimers apply.