Bitcoin Forum

Bitcoin needs to have 5 second confirm times, yeah you heard me right. (you ARE trying to CUT OUT middle men, not CREATE them RIGHT?)

More so it needs a better development team otherwise Bitcoin will continue to become dated. (doesn't need changing? you'll see where this gets you soon enough)

Yes Bitcoin can "do anything" in one sense, but what is it doing NOW?  ::)

5 second confirms.

5 second confirms.

5 second confirms.

(1 second confirms dare I even speak of it?)

Bitcoin better stop crawling and start walking soon or it will be dumpt like you will not believe.

Don't think for a second it "can't happen".

The wheel was a great invention but we aren't using stones anymore.

--

What needs to be changed for 5 second confirms to compete with current payment processors that would actually cut out many middle men, instead of creating them? It needs to get done, no matter how dramatic the change would be.

The original ideas of Bitcoin seemed to have died.

It isn't inspirational to describe what Bitcoin is anymore.

Why don't you use your professional googling skills and look up why we can't have 5 second confirmation times.

5 second confirm time means a block will be mined every 5 seconds seems like impossible if that would happen a total of 432000 bitcoins will be mined everyday and the controlled supply will be ruined.

Let me Google that for you (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=why+bitcoin+confirmation+time+cannot+be+shorter)

for the lazy: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=232297.0

p.s. so what altcoin are you promoting? is it Ethereum again or is it time for a new bitcoin challenger because bitcoin is dying?!!

Your mistake is believing that credit/debit card transactions are confirmed in 5 seconds. It really takes more like 30 seconds just to do a credit/debit card transaction, and it takes months for the transaction to actually be confirmed.

Doing a bitcoin transaction can take just a few seconds: scan a QR code and press the wallet's confirm button. The confirmation doesn't take months, it takes minutes.

Agreed, I have used Bitcoin a few times recently and it always 'confirmed' in less than 10 seconds.
It obviously doen't always get it's first confirmation for a while, but i is recognised as being sent, which is enough for small purchases.

People will talk about 0 confirmation payments being bad, but there is credit card fraud, and bitcoin fraud would be those doing 0 confirmation bad transactions.

VISA has a 2 month confirmation time, we'll be fine  8)

Even better:
Doing a bitcoin transaction can take less than half a second. If my receiving wallet is open, I often hear a beep instantly as soon as a new transaction is incoming.

People never want to accept a 0 confirmation payment with Bitcoin.
Even if it is for a some of 20$ I think there are reasons for this.

We do not need it to be a replacement for VISA and Mastercard as a payment processor, because it can do more than that. You can have tx's with 0 confirmations and it will be instant. It is your choice, if you want to wait for 1 confirmation or 8 confirmations. < Buying a cup of coffee with zero confirmations will not break the bank, if it did not confirm >

If you simply want to do remittance and transfer money to family, then 10 minutes will not be an issue. It is cheaper and faster than many other methods of doing this. We will also see improvements with SegWit and side-chains coming soon, so there is no need to panic. ^smile^

OP, you're wrong:
1) You don't need confirmations when transacting smaller amounts of money.
2) Traditional systems have a very slow 'confirmation time'.
3) The Lightning Network will have near instant transactions that don't require confirmations.

Email didn't need to take over the post office to be successful.

yes indeed sir, that's why I'm also wondering why OP created this thread, speculation showing that this OP might promoting something that he thinks dev can be done, I'm not against the idea but just like other says confirmation needed to be like that or that way in order for it to be completed. just leave bitcoin that way or do not use it anyway.

Oh OP!! Have you been so blinded by the powers of plastic cards, that you have forgotten that it takes WEEKS for credit card transactions to be "confirmed"?

Wanting instant transactions is a completely foreign concept to reality. Except maybe physical gold or cash.

OP you are clearly mistaking confirmation times with the time it takes to broadcast the transaction over the network.

Broadcasting is almost instant and after that the chance of the transaction being reveresed is next to none. Unless there is a double spend attempt at the same time you cannot cancel the transaction after it is broadcasted using correct fees.

The confirmation times are only important to really set it in stone, which is not even ever the case with current payment processors.

it is 1-5 seconds to send and then receive a transaction and that is the only important part, the customer scans the QR code and clicks a button and the shop receives the coin. the confirmation is going to happen in a couple of minutes max which is not important to real business owners like a sandwich shop.

the risk is same (even lower) as risk of getting stolen credit card or experiencing charge back

Credit cards do not take "weeks" or "months" to be "confirmed". This Bitcoin community has gone in some sort of strange denial. Don't try to compare Bitcoin confirm times with this.

And no broadcasting doesn't count as a confirm sorry, be in denial all you want about this.


Bitcoin is NOT what it started off to be.

I'm glad you morons think those confirm times are "impossible" you'll soon see where this kind of attitude gets you.

This is beyond wrong, more denial and assuming the common consumer and business owner thinks this is okay with them when it isn't.

Bitcoin is quickly becoming dated  and NOTHING is being done to change that at all.

Nope. More stupid assumptions.

The exact opposite is happening. There are reasons for which Bitcoin has a ~10 minute block interval, albeit I recall some calculations stating that 7-8 minutes would be more optimal. Additionally, nobody really cares about those altcoins. Bitcoin is becoming less of a taboo. Also you ignored my mention of LN. If you keep your coins in a channel you can do a theoretically infinite amount of near instant transactions.

Why don't you read the OP some more until you figure it out.  ::)

We've been doing fine as it is now, even with all the stress tests, Bitcoin hasn't really seen a decline in usage/popularity.
Your entire post is just shouting that we need 5 second confirmation times, without giving any sound reasoning behind it.

"Fine".

You know AOL did great, then "fine" for awhile until it died off. So did many other things.


Read again maybe?

People aren't impressed with Bitcoin anymore and it gets harder every day to convince them to just completely ignore the slow confirm system Bitcoin has.

Bitcoin is indeed "fine" for online use, it is indeed "fine" for many other things, but it isn't "great".

Bitcoin is most definitely "great"!

There are tons of things you can do with BTC that you cannot do with credit/debit cards, not to mention you personally being in control of your money to where no 3rd party can stop you..

Dude but AOL had great competition from other parties and AOL didn't manage to keep up with them. May I ask you whom are you comparing Bitcoin to? Because Bitcoin is in a league of its own, Bitcoin may be 'fine' as you say and not 'great' however does Bitcoin have competition right now? No. Don't bring up the alt coins because no one cares about them other than speculators.

I already figured it out, what you are talking about is called garbage nonsense.

None of your responses to any of the other comments have any substance.
Each of your replies just state something of the effect of "your wrong" without providing counter argument.

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/18907079.jpg

Even bitcoinnetwork is not getting confirmed every 10 minutes as supposed recently i have waited for 30 minutes+ to get my deposit to online betting wallet today. This is quite annoying, but we all know this time can't be reduced but atleast bitcoin should get confirmed every 10minute not like in 1 to 2 minutes sometime and lag of 30 to 40 minute sometime. Don't know what is the cause of this. >:(

make sense,i agree with that. but i dont think its will easy to change bitcoin transaction better and more faster,or if that gonna ahppen,it might take big fee,and people not want this happen.

Funny I think the same about you.  ::)

Get a new line.

transaction take more time than 5 seconds. it is obvious. I don't know what is the reason behind creating this thread, what OP really want to know..
it is like impossible to take 5 seconds for confirm transaction. you can search google for this.

It gets harder to convince them, because they get brainwashed by the shills who are trying to take down Bitcoin my friend. Most of these slow confirmations has a lot to do

with people "stress testing" the Blockchain, but this is actually only a method to sabotage Bitcoin. If you have been told your whole life that the world was flat, you will end

up believing that, and most people have been told fiat systems is the only safe and reliable option and they believe that. Only a hand full of people will look outside of the

box and experiment with something new. There are so many scams out there... can we blame them for being extra cautious?

Way to stay inside the box, read OP again until you get it.

You have no logic if you think this way.

Yes the current way Bitcoin operates makes 5 second confirms impossible.  ::)

OK, you tell me what you think the confirmation times are.  How long does the merchant have to wait to be sure that the credit card company won't take the money back? How long does the merchant have to wait to be sure that a Bitcoin transaction will go through and won't be double spent?

just for the record i want to say that i am not talking out of my ass, unlike you.

i have seen a lot of small and big business owners accepting bitcoin as payment from coffee shops and fast foods, and those people are not complaining about fraud nor slow confirmation and they don't care about 5 seconds or 10 minuts.
now you can believe whatever you like, it doesn't change any facts.

here is a an example: https://www.reddit.com/user/SeptonHolmes
TL;DR this guy owns a food truck and has been accepting bitcoin for about a month and says he had 0 fraud in over a thousand bitcoin transactions during this time.

this would lead to a disaster in the blockchain which would be full of orphan block, other coins have tried this and they have a shitload of orphan rate

what you need to do is having more merchants accepting zero confirmation, and you would receive fust faster than any fiat system

and once again remember that fiat confirmation is up to 180 days, but since merchants are obligated to trust fiat(and there is no malleability issue) they accept it instantaneously

Talk out of your ass some more please.  ::)

"Those people"..  :D

Some people still use and like AOL - good for THOSE people. Good for them!

Your mistake is to credit / debit card transactions accept that believes in 5 seconds . It takes just 30 seconds is really more like a credit / debit card transactions to be done , and lasts for several months from the transaction are actually produced .

Bitcoin transaction making it one of only a few seconds can take . QR scan code and press the Confirm button in the portfolio . Confirmation will not months , it takes minutes .

Confirmation time is just one thing in a long list of reasons why bitcoin isn't becoming a viable alternative to cash.  I don't think it's ever going to replace fiat,  and it's not because confirmation times can be lousy.  There's just no need to use it as a currency unless you're buying illegal stuff.

5 second confirmations dont solve anything. With bad luck or small fees you still have to wait few minutes for first confirmation. Plus no such coin can work, block propagation times are longer than 5 seconds.

First part of what you said is wrong, 2nd part is kinda right but then very wrong.

So much for being innovative and adaptive to new technologies. Bitcoin users seem to be losing this sense.

Don't become a broken record player or dated like grandpa with the "we can't" attitude.

..or again my point stands, byte the dust.

We wont agree obviously, but why you want coin to have 5 second confirmations and not 4 or 3 or even instant ?

If you looking for instant confirmations, you might look for centralized systems like credit cards or private blockchains - these are not trustless though, thus Bitcoin has its niche even with 10 min confirmations.

Great idea. Now explain how you are going to inform tens of thousands of computers of your Tx in 5 seconds? Are you creating blocks every 5 secs? If so the chain may have to be 12 times as large. If it could be done then Satoshi would have done it.

just another attempt to spread some FUD about bitcoin by choosing a hot topic and including words like "warning" to get attention.

Bitcoin does not need faster confirmation times, the way bitcoin is designed will allow anyone to build on of the blockchain which can enable instant transactions. I'm pretty sure a few payment processors provide this already.

oh ROFL

First.... it was "2MB"


then...... "5 seconds"



These shills need to PUT THE CRACK PIPE DOWN. Seriously guys.

You don't run a real eCommerce site, do you? I do. Credit card transactions can be reversed up to 60-90 days. All the customer has to do is say "I did not authorize that transaction". Bam, he wins the chargeback and keeps the merchandise. No one has ever reversed a 1-day old bitcoin transaction, let alone a 90-day one.

Don't bother providing your personal experience input.
This guy is just gonna say your wrong somehow without explanation.

His name should be changed to "ProfessionalTroller".

False assumptions, I take PayPal payments for online gaming assets and have been for years.

A transaction through credit cards doesn't "confirm" in the same sense that Bitcoin transactions confirm.

I can trust a credit card payment instantly more than I can trust a instant Bitcoin notification of payment.

I never transact through Bitcoin without at least 1 confirm.

Plain facts you want to ignore.  ::)

VISA can be chargeback which is VERY GOOD because the frauds are so common these days.

BTC is a niche market and the people who are using it MUST admit it. BTC cannot replace anything. It's just an e-currency like e-gold.com was.

The debit/credit cards can be used anywhere, it takes seconds to make a purchase and you are "safe" in the way that you can make chargeback if you are scamed or if someone is stealing the money from card.

Now, try to make a charge back when you are using BTC :)  The common people needs safe not shit libertarians motto. BTC is very hard to understand by the common Joe and Joe is 99.999%  
BTC market = over 80% black market and that means once a shit like SilkRoad was closed, the BTC value droped a lot. The rest of the market is for speculator and maybe 1% belongs to so called "normal" users.

I really don't see why someone would use BTC for anything except speculation, buying weed or things like that.
 You lose money to fund your BTC account, you lose money when you want to withdrawn. Guess what?! I cannot pay my bills with Bitcoin or I cannot buy an icecream with it too. I need cash or card. :)

If you run a real eCommerce website and a customer wants to charge back, you can dispute the charge back IF you have proofs that you contacted the client, you identified it and he really made the purchase. It's your duty to make due diligence. Stay calm, nobody will make any charge back if you are an honest business man and you ship/deliver the items AND IF you have a good customer service. Of course, there is a little risk but that's why it's called business. Do you want a business with risk free?  Get real  ;D

What if your BTC is stolen overnight? Don't say that you have it in a cold wallet, bla bla because many others said the same and millions were stolen :)

So, make money/cash now by using BTC and that's it. BTC will end(will not be used, the value will go to zero) as any other e-currency ended in the past.

The current 10 minutes confirmation time is fine but what will be the confirmation time when all coins are mined?I guess most individual miners would be out of mining and with less miners and increased difficulty,would confirmation time be same?

100% of your naysayers are either:

1. Lying
2. Ignorant
3. Unable to think outside of the box

Poloniex accepted Zero Confirmation Transactions for XVC over a testing period of 6 months (now only 1 confirmation like BTC). Because XVC implements the ZeroTime protocol this was 100% safe. We performed transactions during this time worth 10's of thousands of dollars, depositing, selling the XVC and withdrawing the Bitcoin BEFORE the XVC was inserted into a block. Poloniex has never lost any XVC. For those not familiar with ZeroTime it is a contract between you and the recipient forged instantly and confirmed on average ~3 seconds. The contract (ztlock) lives on the network and is periodically rebroadcast via the recipient until a block event occurs. It also has an additional interrogation protocol. This July ZeroTime will be one year old and nobody has been able to break it (bounty was offered).

That said, this forkless, yes you heard me, forkless protocol can be implemented into Bitcoin in as little as two weeks. The ZeroTime locked contract gives Bitcoin ~3 second "off chain" confirmations for all parties in a secure and cryptographic manner while preventing malleability and double spending.

This topic has already been solved for a long time.

You take payments for virtual items that have no cost. Wow, so risky of you. Come back when you spend $10,000 on the raw materials for a real product and have the customer charge you back after receiving it. Online merchants shipping real products have no protection for fraud when accepting credit cards. That's why a credit card transaction isn't truly confirmed until months later, at which point it's too late for the merchant. They're already ripped off.

In any case, comparing bitcoin to credit cards is the wrong comparison. Compare a credit card processor to a payment processor that runs on bitcoin like BitPay. With BitPay, you do get instant confirmations without the fraud risks or massive fees.

There is no question that bitcoin is faster, safer, and cheaper than a credit card. I got rid of ALL my credit cards when I switched to BTC. If you are an online business and want my money then you are going to have accept bitcoin.

I believe the confirmation time will get reduced when the advancement in the processor used gets high config. Right now only based upon the hashrate the transactions were calculated.

even with the current transactions times is much faster than lot of current money transfers, obviously much more safer, is there someone who still believe in banks? and again, obviously much more cheaper, banks are taken our money for digital transactions, what the...?; what i want to say with this is, WELL done my friend, more people will do the same as you, soon...

I beg to differ. I was checking out different Bitcoin debit cards because I wanted to use one but apparently they have higher fees than bank debit cards. I don't completely agree Bitcoin is safer and cheaper with all the Bitcoin scams running amok and exchanges getting breached. At least if something happens to your bank account you can hold the bank accountable and get everything back while a bad Bitcoin transaction is irreversible. And how do you pay for your things every day with no cards? Are you using cash?

Do you even Bitcoin?

Why should a bank be held responsible when you make the mistake of choosing a disreputable merchant? Where does the bank magic the money up from when they reimburse foolish or reckless users of that system? People like you are the problem: ignorance

it can be true,no more good describe about bitcoin,the only mater mentioning by opwas about transaction,its major problem for bitcoin to conquer payment system,but i'm sure developer will not let this always happen.

Is this important to have 5-seconds confirmation time?
I guess it is if you're interested in online strip-teases, but it doesn't matter much if you use BTC to pay for a flight ticket or to order a laptop. The seller will need much more than the standard 10 minutes confirmation time to fulfill your order, so BTC's fine.

Actually I have dealt with scammers before and if you go to your bank and explain what's going on and provide evidence that you are the one getting scammed they can retrieve your money because as you know or maybe you don't know your money isn't permanently lost once you have made a transaction.
Good luck achieving that next time you get scammed by a Bitcoin merchant or an exchange getting breached.

I am not ignorant but my answer to you is :  The pot calling the kettle black  ;D

Class 1 - last week - Objective: How to make a fool out of yourself .
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Class 2 - Today - Objective: How to help a profession Googler.

Google Search: "How long does bank clearing systems take?"

Result ... "If you like faster transfers, use a more efficient bank or broker. Don’t let them get away with “2-4 days is the standard.” The standard ACH service is next-day."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

So it normally takes 2-3 for an ACH transaction to process, but the set standard is next day?

Question: How does this compare to Bitcoin & Blockchain?
Answer: It takes an average of 1hr -+, for a Bitcoin transaction to complete. Note, i didn't say next day, i said 1hr, which is 23Hrs - months faster than anything available.

Note: This includes low transaction fees, no human errors, and some privacy when required.

Banks reimburse customers before ever recovering stolen funds. They can literally create the money to reimburse you (and essentially do, it comes from an insurance fund which is basically a proxy for that very action), so the incentive to retrieve stolen money isn't that high.


Re: ignorance; isn't it you that's here on the Bitcointalk forum, trying to convince people that chargebacks are cool and that Banks are such a great way to do business? Please

I am not convincing anyone of anything. My point still stands though - can you get your Bitcoins back after a bad transaction? Yes or no?

Don't play the card that I am anti-Bitcoin which I am not in the slightest. Please mister.

This is a forum and I am free to voice my opinion which may differ from yours obviously.

Smells like... promotion of an altcoin!

Good point, you can't get your bitcoins back after a back transaction.
The same goes with fiat and wire transfer (non-reversible)

"Lets twist the table." Merchants are faced with a 50%-50% possibility of users illegally using charge back systems to obtain refunds, after purchase. With bitcoin, this threat is eliminate for merchant.

So we could say that Bitcoin is like the inverse of Fiat, but, lets not forget the existent of escrows, which tilts the scores to make DigitalCurrencies more favorable.

Hard to understand these threads that keep materializing to what kill bitcoin? Seems pointless to bang the same issue over and over about transaction times.
If it becomes a big issue we can fix it,do not worry about little things that the community will eventually solve together.

Who implied otherwise?


If you knew about the rationale behind Bitcoin, you wouldn't be discussing chargebacks as a drawback at all. What next, I suppose you're going to tell us that the merchant should pay the tx fees so as to encourage commerce lol. Yeah, you've got your opinion, and you're free to express it. Ignorantly.

I must say i am with you on this one, OP.

Transfer times are more than 1 hour even if you use fees and that is unacceptable to me. World changes too fast and 1 hour can make a huge difference in your life.

I demand that the pair of you produce a forked client with a 5 second average block interval. I'm sure you'll find the support you need, I mean, this issue has nevvvvvvvvvver been looked at before lol

Okay so I am very ignorant I get it now. Please enlighten me as to what is the rationale behind Bitcoin I need to know so badly so I can live a fulfilling life and die a happy person? Please mister help a fellow forum member. I don't want to live in the dark any more been here for 3 years.

If you can't teach the fundamentals to yourself in 3 years of being involved, there's no way I would even contemplate such an uphill struggle, even if you weren't being obnoxious. Throw in ignorance, arrogance and intransigence, well, damn, you've gotta be kidding me

I am really enjoying your pompous speech and haughtiness, your highness. Please continue to enlighten me. Thanks for the entertaining evening.

Wendigo is probably being sarcastic when talking with Carlton Banks.
In the event he would like a rational why chargebacks are against bitcoins purpose,
below is my simple opinion.

Without getting into all the details and the speculation around such details,
it is believed (IMO) within the Bitcoin community that Satoshi Nakamoto wanted to
create Bitcoin/bitcoin not only to created the first successful decentralized online
payment system, but also as a way to protect people from the manipulative and
destructive current world financial system. Many of the features of that world
system, such as the ability of chargebacks, quantitative easing, bailouts, and etc, are
actually fundamental problems in that system that allows for massive fraud, debt,
inflation, scams, theft and ultimately financial collapses that only hurts the common
person at the end of it all.

So, simply not allowing chargebacks is a plus to Bitcoin. If they were allowed or part
of the protocol, then there would be no point in using Bitcoin/bitcoin.

I watch your coin for some time now..

You do realise I've been talking about the CURRENT STATE of Bitcoin and how OTHERS have been the "naysayers" in this thread..  :D

Bitcoin refuses to change like Grandpa!

Too much of "well Bitcoin CAN do this and that" but not enough from the dev team to make it happen.

What are you going to do when the person on the other end of the peer-to-peer decentralized open-source transaction is a bad guy who takes your hard-earned coins and leaves? Can Satoshi Nakamoto help you get your money back? He tried to create an utopia where everyone can be trusted and Bitcoin can be the savior of the financial world but unfortunately the world is broken, the world is dirty and is going to shit faster than we can fix it because there is no cure for greed and this greed will end us all. Bitcoin is only safe in a wallet. Upon leaving said wallet there are no rules in place to save your ass if someone out there gets you. If you go back to my post that started this deviation in conversation you would see that I have said 1/ Bitcoin fees other than miners transaction fees will set you back more than a simple debit card which is true because the Bitcoin companies offering cards are there to make profit off you which is a fact and 2/ Bitcoin is not secure after it has left your wallet or someone gets into your wallet because you have no recourse to get it back.

you guys have to stop seeing the world in black and white, it is not like bitcoin is bad banks are good kind of situation. or even bitcoin is going to die and eth will replace it!!
everything has its pros and cons, you will never find a perfectly good or completely bad thing in the world. you can use any of them as you see fit to your situation.

if you think .... is good then use ...., there is no need to shove your opinion down other people's throats.

Not worried here.  5 second confirmations are not a deal breaker and this could improve - this is still super fast. There simply is no competition for Bitcoin at this point and none in the foreseeable future. Bitcoin is #1 on the list of who will take over payment systems.

I'm surprised you are a high level Hero Member, yet have these anti-bitcoin opinions.
Its seems by your understanding and interpretation, bitcoin should be more like credit cards.
I did not give my opinion to argue basics bitcoin philosophy, but to provide background.

If these are your concerns, why are you even bothering with bitcoin?
More importantly, what are your proposed fixes for the problems you outline?

Nothing! That's how it should be. Grow up. Take responsibility for your own actions. Stop counting on mommy to bail you out when you screw up. Every time you screw up, I have to pay for it (chargebacks cause merchants to raise prices). I'm sick of paying for your failures.

I am very grateful to you for having helped those of us who are confusion about sentences that sometimes become everyone's questions, but perl is known that the phrase "5 second confirm" is the mark by which time the block will be mined every 5 seconds. I think you have misread the article that plunges you in a hole that is not fact. I hope you can read the original article is not false

you should search for how many people are getting scammed because of charge-back. just google it and see some forum posts on social places like blackhatworld or reddit. there are a lot of people who have been scammed because of charge-back, the scammer buys the goods and then easily charges back and there is no way of proving by the seller in most of the times.

I would like to publicly apologize to everyone caught into this quarrel because it was my fault of interpreting the situation wrong. My sincere apologies to Carlton Banks and hope he is not very upset by my obnoxious behaviour.

I would like to affirm again that I am not anti-Bitcoin. Thank you.

Correct. And it's worse than you can possibly imagine. I have a hundred examples. I won't go into details here because I don't want to give any scammers ideas. But I could easily chargeback any online purchase I've made. I can keep the merchandise and I get all my money back, at the merchant's expense. The credit card companies don't care because they've shifted the responsibility for fraud to the merchants, yet they refuse to give merchants the tools needed to fight fraud. Scammers love credit cards.