Bitcoin Forum

Which site is better to invest in? I tried reading the rules for bitdice but got confused...

What is betdice? Can you provide us with a link?

Oops. I just realized I put betdice  :o

I meant bitdice... Thanks to joksim299 for pointing that out.

I'm not familiar with bitdice. I think it's better to invest in a gambling site whch is more popular. You can also add bitvest.io in your investment option, iirc te are also accepting investments and tey do have nice number of daily users..

Its same like you asked to put money on red or black. I prefer moneypot but also I like odd numbers in roulette. So take your pick or trust mine, what you gonna do?
Have your own opinion, if you win its cause of you, if you lose its cause of you!

I meant for investing, but thanks for answering!

You do know that you can go up and edit the original post plus the title, right?

It all comes down to which one you trust the most with your money, other than that both have somewhat similar risks, if any gambler(s) have a good day and get lucky they can put a dent in your investment real fast.

I'm not looking to get rich fast. Which one has the most volume and best house edge?

Go for moneypot if you ask me.
If you are not looking for fast way of getting pofit then it's ok.

That's the one I'm currently using. But I've been having concerns about its stats... My other thread is here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1438838.msg14566779#msg14566779

Edit: JK. Thanks RHavar

Is almost certainly the wrong question to be asking. The kelly explains why: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_criterion . If that's not making sense, I'd strongly suggest not investing in a casino. But the short of it, is even if it's a good investment you should only be putting a tiny fraction of your money in (to achieve +expected growth), so it's rather irrelevant which is better. The relevant question is along the lines of is X worth putting money in, and if so, the % of your total bankroll should be so small it will have almost no bearing on your ability to invest in other things worth investing in

Ok. I am reading up on it now. But still, which one has more traffic?

I prefer moneypot , lots of apps , great promos and all . And I am an investor and I prefer Moneypot above all .
 Traffic doesnt matter in Casinos . Quality players matters.

Traffic is irelevant because what matters will be how many btc wagered on the site because that is where your source of profit for investment comes from. If you wish to know then go and check the status here https://dicesites.com/. This week bitdice is below betterbets ( one of the site from moneypot ) and not included the other moneypot's site


Stupid posts, stop posting if you dont know about this stuff

1) Moneypot has another site?
2) How do you know which ones are with moneypot?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1366689.msg13905929#msg13905929

There is complete list of apps which are affiliated or using moneypot platform, i also would like to suggest you moneypot is much better because it is much popular and have dozen of promotions to attract more active players.

I would not recommend any of them. Definitely not moneypot,since the staff have changed I personally don't see its going anywhere.Try good independent gambling sites instead.

It doesnt really matter about who is operating moneypot. As long as there are few good sites in there that has alot of peple wagering there then you as the investor will get profit from that, even if they do nothing to moneypot as long as each sites operator keep improving their sites and try to lure player then everything will be good

if you are looking to invest in a casino take a loot at this topic, it is about which casino is better to invest in: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1400122.0

my personal opinion is that they are all highly risky which makes them bad investments for me, so i wouldn't prefer this method at all.

Every "investment" is highly risky and there is no investment that could guarantee profit forever for you , that would be ponzis and not investment. Gambling site's investment however guarantee percentage of profit according to their house edge however you could always lose money when some lucky gambler hit the house hard or the site's operator stole your money

Having been around at BitDice for quite a long time I can say it's a good option to invest at. The owner is reputable and has proven to be trustworthy numerous times (processing large, 500+ BTC withdrawals).

I think a lot of trust dice sites
and I suggest more detailed info see the website owner if you are uncertain to invest ;D

I think, if you want to success in these casino sites investments then it is better to diversify your investments. Moneypot now got a new owner so it is better not to invest more on this site until we have very clear road map about there strategy. Apart from this moneypot site you also need to find few more good sites to invest your money to avoid big loses in worst cases. Good luck to you.

if you want to choose between the two i would go with Moneypot because it is more popular than the other and also it has more games associated with it which makes more room.

many websites supporting investing, also betking.io, crypto-games.net, safedice.com

Safedice is insolvent, would highly suggest not investing there.


(And a scam accusation from a player who won over 100 BTC)

Damn just read it in their thread.

i dont know dude.
but in my opinion none good place to invest over the place related to gambling.  ???

I would advice not to invest in any of the gambling site, it's same as gambling there's no guarantee that you'll profit.

there are many good sites like betking,mp etc.

if i have to choice from those sites moneypot is the best because these sites also very popular here
and also i didn't see any problem regarding withdrawal and deposit on moneypot till now

Everybody keeps saying that there are risks involved with investing, but I'm not sure I understand where they're coming from. Is it that they might lost money in the short run, or because they could leave with your money?

Any operator could run with your money because you let them keep it and the second will be variances. You will never know when the variances will hit the house real hard. Safedice bankroll got reduced by over 100 btc when some lucky gambler managed to win huge from the site so it is not really guaranteed profit even with house edge however in long term, most likely there will always be profit

both.
generally speaking investing involves taking risks, these risks can be because what you invest in turns out to be a scam and run away or more commonly can be because what you have invested in didn't make any profit and lost money instead in the meanwhile.

in gambling both can be true and for the loss, when you invest in a bankroll you are sharing in the win or loss of the house which means if a gambler loses money you earn profit and if the gambler wins you lose money.

You might lose money, a lot of money in the short run. A lucky gambler recently won 100+ BTC out of the 130 BTC bankroll, resulting in a huge loss for investors. MP investor profit also went from ~+20 BTC to ~-40 BTC a few months ago. A lot could happen with variance. Both things you said are exactly the risks, not much more that can happen other then the site getting hacked and funds are stolen.

---

Regarding your original question:
(Please note that I have invested in Moneypot and still do sometimes, and I haven't tried BitDice at all, so my answer might be slightly biased.)
I like investing in MoneyPot. It's simple, and easy to do. MP profit seems to be a bit more crazy then other site, probably because of all the different apps. It could jump up a lot overnight, or fall a lot, but it usually will recover pretty quickly, and you can come out with profit. It's more risky though, but has a higher reward.

So what have the returns been historically? In the range of...

Never tried moneypot as that one is the confusing one to me.
dice games are easy. You pick your odds of rolling winning number, you press roll , then you either win or lose. That is simplest thing in the world to understand. Moneypot on the other hand looks to be too confusing for the novice person to this new bitcoin gambling market.

Moneypot's numbers are only for just over the last four months.  There's ~400 Bitcoin in the bankroll and a profit of ~100 Bitcoin.  This would mean that if the bankroll was steady at these numbers, investors would have seen a more than roughly 25% increase on their initial investment in this short time. 

So, um, did moneypot not exist 4 months ago?

Both. And short run can also be long run. There's no guarantee that a site will have continued volume, or after the bankroll drops you might get diluted out.

Here should be a sobering graph of some of the risks involved:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/spa/rmczv2tqcr196vz/-nc5i1ai.png

...and there's sites that have done a lot worse (like been hacked). If you're investing more than a few percent of your money, you're just gambling yourself =)

It has been in operation for over a year.  However, ~4 months ago, ownership changed hands and all stats were reset.  

The numbers that I mentioned above are the new stats since the change.

Did that bet not violate the kelly? Or was the bankroll large enough? Also, the profit was still positive, right?

Nope, it was an aggressive series of kelly-compliant bets. Or think about it this way, there's no point having a 1000 BTC bankroll if you're not risking 1000 BTC. If the biggest loss was 100 BTC, you'd only need 100 BTC bankroll.

Hey,

It's not, our system will not allow any bet higher than the risked amount. And it recalculates real-time.
Yes, current profit is ~730BTC, at the time our player won ~550BTC our profit was around ~500. We've never been in negative profit.

If you have any question about investments, do not hesitate to ask in chat or by email: bitdice@protonmail.ch I will explain everything in great detail.

PS: Also new version of the site is coming, which will significantly change the market ;)

Regards,
Alex

MP is pretty easy. To break it down:

Think of MP as being like ALL the casinos in Vegas under one umbrella. Instead of investing in MGM, you invest in MP. Now you've invested into MGM, New York, etc. all at once, all of which are using a central bankroll. So instead of investing in one site, you're investing in many.

for sure i vote for moneypot because there is alot of highrollers there and there is more casinos and all of them are searching for traffic so you will either have good fail or good success :)
regards.
-Katerniko1

This is nice explanation. Thanks Mixan for clarifying things for me, I didn't know that. I thought MP is just casino like any other.
I never heard for bitdice before, is that some new site?
I see you have a good knowledge about that so can you tell mi how much is minimum amount to invest and after how much time you can expect some earning?
For me personally this sounds much better then cloud mining.

By "risked amount" do you mean the sum of all the amounts that all the investors are willing to risk per bet?

Currently real investments in BitDice is 1,770 BTC. However as most investors prefers high risk, they've made our "weighted" bankroll up to 16,800 BTC. Site risks only 1% so max profit is 168 BTC per bet. When some user wins, high risk investors lose more than a conservative ones, so at some point bankroll will be stabilize to real investment amount and there's no way that any user can win more than we actually have. 

With new version coming very soon maximum kelly will be lowered to 5% after that we will lower it more consider total invested amount.

Regards,
Alex.

So, if I understand what you mean:

1) If a hacker was to hack your account, he would find 1,770 BTC

2) What is the meaning of 16,800 BTC???

3) Do high risk investors earn more when gamblers lose?

4) I don't think it's a Kelly if the people can choose. Kelly is one mathematically calculated value. There exists a certain kelly for a certain bet. What you mean to say is that the most investors can choose to risk on each bet is 5%. You probably should try to use a new term for that... in my humble opinion.

Which account? We do not store funds on server, there are coldwallet for user funds.

Site always risks 1%, to be able to calculate max profit per bet we need to sum all investments with their kelly which is weighted bankroll.

Yes, high risk investors receive X times more where X is their kelly level ( as they are actually risk more than other investors )

Sorry, I should have used "X". We will allow to set a maximum of 5X Kelly with the new version. Kelly is a "optimal" risk amount consider your bankroll, in case of investors, it's how much they are willing to risk with their investments. And if investors wants to risk more or less than an optimal setting we allow to adjust it.

Regards,
Alex.

What do the 1770 and 16800 represent? How is the weighted bankroll calculated? I am confused on that. However, I think you are mistaken when you say "in case of investors, it's how much they are willing to risk with their investments". That's a different word, kelly is the result of the formula. Also, what about the fees that your site charges? Do they factor in to the 1%

You should split it 50/50 I have an investment in both and they great !
It is not easy to put a number on the return but it's good so try it out with a little amount of bitcoin and if you don't like it then just withdraw.

it's technically always gambling, except you have the house odds in your favor.

so it's not a bad kind of gambling.

Op if you are wondering about investing bitcoins this list of of popular investment sites might be helpful for you: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1136572.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1136572.0)
It is not that you have only 2 sites to chose from when you want invest. But investing is always a risk, especially bitcoin investments could be very dangerous.

I haven't heard of bitdice if you want to invest,  bitdice or moneypot investing is Risky, But if you really want to invest, invest in moneypot  atleast moneypot is well-known and trusted by many users. I also have investment there 0.15 Bitcoin my percent for that is 0.01,   

Your % is 0.01% ? Each day ? So about 3.5% per year ? That's not good at all. Are you sure ? Or dude you mean you made 0.01btc with an investment of 0.15btc ? That would be good depending on the time it took.

I believe he means he owns 0.01% of the bankroll. MoneyPot has outperformed (in terms of % return on investment, not necessarily the absolute return) every publicly bankrolled site since our team has taken over.

You might want to remember that moneypot has been around for quite awhile and has many casinos tied up with their bank roll so there alot more people and larger casinos risking even more then you will be so that should be a good sign to go with moneypot. I do recommend a small investment in bitdice anyway just for a feeler.

Im investing in LIR
LetItRide

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1511021.0;

I feel like getting in during the beginning of a site offers much more upside potential then getting in once the site is established. If you get in once it's established then you're at the mercy of the site and their offer. None of the already established players will give away such a large portion of their profits to new investors. They may have back in the day when they were new but not anymore.
Like with LIR you can share in 25% of house profits and the devs are using 10% of house profits to buy LIR from the market. Show me another dice site that offers even close to that kind of return potential.  8)

With so many ways to make money its a nobrainer to invest in LIR over some of the other sites.

LIR sockpuppets / trolls back at it again. Read the title of the thread before posting.

First bolded part: This is false. Technically, you are always at the mercy of the site not running off on you. Assume in a hypothetical scenario where no casino runs off. This would mean that you can pull your funds off of the established sites at anytime, since they do not sell profit share, you are simply parking your funds in their bankroll. With LIR, you are at the mercy of the site because you cannot pull your funds out, you need LIR to generate profit.

To the underlined portion: This is very false. LIR gives the least back to stakeholders of any site, this is basic math and not arguable. Every other site offers investors a range of 30-90% of the house edge. LIR gives 15%+ a buy back (which is NOT necessarily profit, simply a return of capital. The only way it is profit is if "Y" (buy back price) - "X" (original investment price) has a remainder. The remainder is profit). If you are a top 10 holder, you get an additional 10%. So basically, assuming you are a top 10 investor, you get 25% back. This is lower than everyone else.

The way LIR investment works:
- You invest in profit share. You cannot pull your funds out at anytime (unlike any other publicly bankrolled casino other than CBTC)
- LIR uses 10% of profit to buy back tokens
- LIR pays 15% to holders
- LIR pays the top 10 coin holders an additional 10%
- If they sell their site, 35% of the purchase price goes to token holders

There is no added upside to investing in profit share in a casino then there is to bankroll it.

Casino "x" = profit share casino
Casino "y" = bankroll casino

Each has 100 BTC bankroll.

Casino "x" gives you 15% profit share (I will even assume casino is giving 15% of revenue instead of profit).
- 1000BTC volume * 1% HE = 1 BTC expected profit

Profit = 1 BTC
Investors get 15% of 1 BTC, or 0.15 BTC


Casino "y" gives you 90% of the EV
- 1000BTC volume * 1% HE = 1 BTC expected profit
Investors get 90% of 1 BTC, or 0.9 BTC

Obviously the percentage of the EV is not the only thing that matters, the real thing that matters is what gives you the greatest expected return which would be (volume * bankroll share of HE * your percentage of bankroll), sites that do more volume are more attractive options to investors.


Unless you think LIR is going to do several times the volume of every other casino, its a bad investment.

I did read your reply. Clearly you cannot do simple math. Send me a message when LIR surpasses MoneyPot in profit and I will send you a few BTC for free  ::)


Just to help out with the math (once again):

Assume somehow LIR manages to match MoneyPot in volume (which it won't):

100 BTC LIR

1000 BTC * 0.01 = 1 Expected profit

LIR investors = 0.15 BTC (since investors get 15% of profit)

100 BTC MP

1000 BTC * 0.01 = 1 Expected profit

MP investors = 0.30 BTC (since investors get 30% of the edge)

LOL, are you stupid???
Its impossible to base your answer on math when LIR is not even operational yet.
To base it on math we at least need a sample of LIR's profits, amount wagered, users ect.
All we can base it on is projected ability to take market share and just based on their name I think they can take a lot from the existing players.
But I will look you up when the time comes and collect my free btc's. Thanks for making me such a generous offer. I appreciate it.

Seeing as though you added this I'll re reply.
You're not taking into account the 10% paid out off the top, nor are you taking into account the buyback of LIR from the exchange nor are you even considering the fact that when the site sells (if it does) we all get to share in that, while if you sell moneypot all the investors get is a pat on the back and a big thank you.

If you want to do the math, include the 10% off the top, include a potential purchase price and include the 10% buyback.

OK?

Actually, yes you can base it on math before LIR is operational.

Their profits are going to based on wagered. This is fact. There will be some variance, but if you are betting on the house greatly beating the EV you are a gambler, not an investor.

Simply saying "players are going to come play here" does not make it true. Especially with an impressive bankroll of 250 BTC and nothing to distinguish it from any other site.


Why would I include the 10% that goes to the top 10 investors (not to mention, that would still be less than every other site lol)? The majority of investors are not going to be top 10, thus they shouldn't be included for projections for the average joe.

I already mentioned the buy back. Buy back does not = 10% profit share. Your token is an asset, once you sell it you might have BTC, but you no longer have that asset, thus to calculate any profit on it you need to do BTC (price they pay you) - asset (what you paid for the token).

If MoneyPot sells, investors get their entire sum invested in the site back. Its not like their money vanishes. Meanwhile, when LIR sells you get 35% of the cut. How much do you think LIR would really sell for? Honest question. Say they end up raising 500 BTC. They would need to sell the site for about 1430BTC for token investors to break even. If you think the site will sell for that you shouldn't be investing in anything.

First, you dont even know what the HE is going to be. Could be 1% could be 5% or could be anywhere in the middle which means if you do your math at 1% and it ends up being 4% then your numbers are actually only 1/4 of the correct answer. And top 10 investor or not it still needs to be taken into consideration because you have no clue who may want to be a top 10 investor.

And they buyback does count, even if I sell my asset back to them it gives me another way of profiting. But at least we BOTH agree on one thing. If moneypot sells all the moneypot investors get is their btc back and a pat on the back, but if LetItRide sells the investors who helped LIR get to a level to where people are considering buying it actually share in the cut.

SO TLDR

You dont even know the HE so you cant do the math,
Selling an asset for btc is just another way for an investor to reap rewards.
If LIR sells the people who helped it become a sellable business actually get rewarded financially unlike moneypot.

LIR is a WAY better investment then moneypot any day of the week.

P.s. Im sure you know of a dice site that once sold for over 80k BTC.

It happened before and it can happen again!

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Goodluck with your site, and welcome to my ignore list.

No. You clearly dont and that's why you're putting me on ignore and ignoring my 100% accurate post above. It's ok. Run away like a little child but it wont help you.

i choose bitdice

dice game is easy game gambler , n much profit
and very fast , very fast profit or very fast lost

Moneypot is better, as they have many games popping out every now and then, and all are interesting TBH.
So, my vote goes for them.

Yes strait ! I would rather trust stability then promises of wealth. Now lets enjoy our popcorn and watch these people fight over nothing xP

if that is the only reason you liked bitdice then i assume you didn't visit moneypot yet, try to visit moneypot and you will see many dice sites that offer different features. moneypot's dices is way better than bitdice IMHO

very honestly I have no experience in Moneypot  and in Bitdice. even though I want to do it and get experience in these two sites but I am not getting opportunity for. on other side I am doing gambling on sports and specially on cricket matches because I like cricket. it is my favorite. and I have too much experience in it.

I think it depends how gamblers want to do what game. Because not all players have the same interests and desires. For me personally, I prefer the BitDice, because I like the game of dice than any other game. Indeed the moneypot gives an awful lot of games, but I don't like some games in there

I have played for some good period of time on moneypot as gambler.I don't know anything about Bitdice as never gave any try there.If you have good amount of money then you should go for investment else doesn't have sense.I will suggest Moneypot because of personal experience with old management.Now I didn't play for good weeks.

If we make comparison between both then on Moneypot's platform there are huge variety of gaming applications.There is diversity.Choice is your I see many people have supported and suggested different things in their way.I don't invest money because I don't have enough to perform well.I play gambling that without some specific site.

Well you can test it in a month, try sending half of your amount to invest at both sites and see which has more profit.
But for me, ill invest on bitdice,. they have good players that are regular bettors and not that high of a bankroll on investment yet, unlike on moneypot that has big bankroll on investments already.

I didnt invest in bitdice before so i dont really know how to compare both of them. But i know about moneypot. It is very trust-able and backed by high profile people. This makes me decided to invest in them even after the sale. Till now, i have not regret that i invested in them and i am very happy with the extra profit i get.

If I had to choose between those two sites I'd go with Moneypot, It's reputable and a lot more bitcoins have been invested there. Good luck with the choice you will make either way.

I have used Moneypot is past and still doing again. I have not used Bitdice at all yet so I am not in condition to give my opinion about that. Moneypot is best and I never had any type of problem with money. Moneypot is well known and is trustworthy in personal experience. I let my money in its wallet as online wallet too this is level of my trust on it.

If you confused just go with Moneypot, Moneypot are well established and trusted and it is very easy to understand how the investment works they have made everything simple.

On the contract, i would recommend moneypot even more than ever. Before the sale, even though i like moneypot, i still can notice a few problem moneypot has. After the sale and when i realise the team members who now own MP, i am quite impressed and decided to reinvest with the new team. And to my surprise, MP performs even better than before. In fact, it get so good that the bankroll shoot up from 400btc to 1.5k btc.

I agree. The independent casinos are more likely to cheat then a place  ypot that has many sites backing up.

Just invest equal parts in both , its better to make diverse investments then place all tour eggs in one basket. I would suggest even further diversifying with other casino bankrolls! Never limit yourself.