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Title: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: dresdenreader on February 21, 2013, 04:44:02 AM https://i.imgur.com/aMXYg8l.png
transcript: 08:20 PM BFL_Josh: I got more info today. The bumping should be done by tomorrow and the ASIC team should have sample chips by Friday, or at least that's when they are expecting them (about 40) so they can run tests and make sure everything is good. Packaging should be done around the same time and shipped off to Chicago after that. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: smoothie on February 21, 2013, 05:03:57 AM https://i.imgur.com/aMXYg8l.png transcript: 08:20 PM BFL_Josh: I got more info today. The bumping should be done by tomorrow and the ASIC team should have sample chips by Friday, or at least that's when they are expecting them (about 40) so they can run tests and make sure everything is good. Packaging should be done around the same time and shipped off to Chicago after that. So does this mean BFL has not done any real tests on their ASIC chips? And you all thought they were going to ship soon after getting their chips... Pray to the ASIC Gods that the chips are 100% perfectly working. Big surprise :P Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: dresdenreader on February 21, 2013, 05:11:26 AM Hey now, don't shoot the messenger = )
I guess we shall see what happens, I'm glad I was lucky enough to grab that screen of him giving us an update. Also, this happened too - http://mineforeman.com/2013/02/20/kanoi-from-the-cgminer-crew-posts-photos-of-his-butterfly-labs-visit/ Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: crazyates on February 21, 2013, 05:26:27 AM https://i.imgur.com/aMXYg8l.png So does this mean BFL has not done any real tests on their ASIC chips?transcript: 08:20 PM BFL_Josh: I got more info today. The bumping should be done by tomorrow and the ASIC team should have sample chips by Friday, or at least that's when they are expecting them (about 40) so they can run tests and make sure everything is good. Packaging should be done around the same time and shipped off to Chicago after that. And you all thought they were going to ship soon after getting their chips... Pray to the ASIC Gods that the chips are 100% perfectly working. Big surprise :P Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: PuertoLibre on February 21, 2013, 05:48:26 AM Hey now, don't shoot the messenger = ) I guess we shall see what happens, I'm glad I was lucky enough to grab that screen of him giving us an update. Also, this happened too - http://mineforeman.com/2013/02/20/kanoi-from-the-cgminer-crew-posts-photos-of-his-butterfly-labs-visit/ Excerpts: [08:22 PM] SLok : pictures all seen before, so the latest 18th bumping is off, but no actual word on what's next? No shipping in febr. then, not in first half march too. If you are not in batch one, expect april [08:23 PM] SLok : you think next batches of wafers will be treated different? [08:24 PM] SLok : by the bumping/packaging guys? [11:20 PM] BFL_Josh : I got more info today. The bumping should be done by tomorrow and the ASIC team should have sample chips by Friday, or at least that's when they are expecting them (about 40) so they can run tests and make sure everything is good. Packaging should be done around the same time and shipped off to Chicago after that. [11:21 PM] Bowjob : Josh, will you be shipping by March or not? [11:21 PM] KrLos : so, maybe the shippings start after 1 march? Posted under the FAIR USE act for the purposes of discussion and education. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: dresdenreader on February 21, 2013, 06:08:01 AM Basic gist was that they should have the boards at their KC facility by next week sometime. This is after their test chips get to the CA facility hopefully by Friday (possibly Sat or Mon).
He made a post on another thread stating that they hope to clear out the current backlog by end of April early May. However, just an estimate. I think he's done making hard estimates for now since it's burned him so much. He legitimately sounds like a tired dude just trying to get the product out the door. But we will see what happens in the coming weeks and what not. Still... only 3 Avalons confirmed in the wild. The REAL winner right now is ASICminer. Making bank right now, but I just can't imagine their power costs. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: kaerf on February 21, 2013, 06:53:21 AM FYI, here's some info regarding the bumping too. not sure if this info was posted elsewhere
Quote 08:04 <@kanoi> Well I got the full Bump story today 08:04 -!- BlackPrapor [~kvirc@94.41.201.80.dynamic.ufanet.ru] has joined #cgminer 08:04 < con_> hmm I worry when the highest bidder has zero purchases to date... 08:04 <@kanoi> anyone wanna hear? :) 08:04 < con_> of course ^_^ 08:04 < RommelVR> ha 08:05 <@kanoi> Firslty they did indeed offer them a lot of extra money to do it fast ... 08:05 <@kanoi> But they couldn't do it fast :P 08:05 < con_> lol 08:05 <@kanoi> Idiots doing the bumping :P 08:05 < RommelVR> fwiw (http://198.245.60.111/Pix/WorkRoom1.jpg <- NO PHONE ZONE ... naughty) 08:06 <@kanoi> Sonny's guess was that the tech guys got none of the extra so they wouldn't do it so it was probably the managers' (plural) fault 08:06 < con_> I assume bumping cannot be done in house for just one device or something? 08:06 <@kanoi> no 08:07 < con_> hmm might be a big night here, grabbing a coffee brb 08:07 < con_> feh coffee machine's cold, just turned it to heat 08:07 <@kanoi> anywya - since there is no blank wafer to test and align the first bump, they gotta be REAL careful of lose 1100 chips 08:07 < con_> what kind of department is this? Everyone knows anaesthetists need coffee asap 08:08 < con_> yowzer 08:08 <@kanoi> :D 08:08 < con_> that would fuck everything over 08:08 <@kanoi> well only one wafer - but yeah would be a small setback Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: dresdenreader on February 21, 2013, 07:12:15 AM Ouch.
Anyway, for anyone interested, this is the easiest way to see all of his updates. https://forums.butterflylabs.com/vbshout.php?message=&username=BFL_Josh&hours=&from%5Bmonth%5D=2&from%5Bday%5D=20&from%5Byear%5D=2013&end%5Bmonth%5D=2&end%5Bday%5D=21&end%5Byear%5D=2013&filter%5Bshout%5D=1&chatroomid=0&orderby=DESC&perpage=100&s=&do=archive&instanceid=1 Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: repentance on February 21, 2013, 08:13:15 AM At this stage BFL would be better off saying "mid-March" and pleasantly surprising people by being ready to ship early than giving another overly optimistic "worst case scenario" and failing to meet it. 22 February was supposed to be the "worst case scenario".
I'm also curious about how much their units weigh because $88 for international shipping sounds way too low. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: Puppet on February 21, 2013, 08:21:08 AM You know full well they had working prototype chips months ago, back when they were using the QFN package. They even did the testing you're so intent on bitching about. I have full confidence in their chip design. There is only so much you can test using a different package, particularly if its true those chips destroyed themselves from heat. Fact is they they are yet to do the first tests of BGA chips, and even assuming they managed to do basic functional verification on the QFN chips, there are a millions things different now. A package change is no minor tweak, it changes the interconnects, signal integrity, the package and ball alignment have to be checked, it completely voids any thermal or physical stress tests, the PCBs are new, its probably safe to say they have will have to redo chip characterization if they ever did any previously, they can only guess how the underfill will cope (assuming they used any, if not that might be a serious reliability problem). You know, these are the kind of things that even highly experienced companies like nVidia or AMD get wrong occasionally. For instance here: http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1050052/nvidia-chips-underfill Just small snippet from the above link: Quote The next theory is slightly more plausible - that Nvidia didn't have time to properly test. A heat cycle test of packaging material takes about three months to do, and you can't really rush it. The Inquirer (http://s.tt/14c7t) Ill grant that a bitcoin asic is substantially less complicated than a modern GPU but still.. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: PuertoLibre on February 21, 2013, 08:23:42 AM At this stage BFL would be better off saying "mid-March" and pleasantly surprising people by being ready to ship early than giving another overly optimistic "worst case scenario" and failing to meet it. 22 February was supposed to be the "worst case scenario". Hopefully it is not by USPS or EMS. USPS works with EMS last I checked and USPS recently jacked their prices sky high for international shipping. (EMS = Express Mail Service http://www.ems.com.cn/english.html)I'm also curious about how much their units weigh because $88 for international shipping sounds way too low. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: repentance on February 21, 2013, 08:31:18 AM At this stage BFL would be better off saying "mid-March" and pleasantly surprising people by being ready to ship early than giving another overly optimistic "worst case scenario" and failing to meet it. 22 February was supposed to be the "worst case scenario". Hopefully it is not by USPS or EMS. USPS works with EMS last I checked and USPS recently jacked their prices sky high for international shipping. (EMS = Express Mail Service)I'm also curious about how much their units weigh because $88 for international shipping sounds way too low. I plugged a 6 pound package into DHL's calculator. For 3 day express shipping - leaving Kansas City on a Monday and landing in Sydney on Thursday the same week, it was $149 if organised online (this doesn't take into account any customs delays - they only guarantee getting it to Sydney in that time-frame). Once things are cleared through customs and handed off to local carriers, delivery is usually pretty quick. You can end up having to pay for redelivery, though, because the tracking information isn't reliable with some carriers and they attempt delivery before the date shown on the tracking info. I know there've been a lot of customs problems with EMS packages coming from China to Australia recently - don't know if packages from the US are affected. Starting packing the same day as testing starts is a huge risk, but I suspect they wouldn't be able to get another slot with the packaging facility any time soon if they hold off until the chips are tested. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: PuertoLibre on February 21, 2013, 08:33:04 AM At this stage BFL would be better off saying "mid-March" and pleasantly surprising people by being ready to ship early than giving another overly optimistic "worst case scenario" and failing to meet it. 22 February was supposed to be the "worst case scenario". Hopefully it is not by USPS or EMS. USPS works with EMS last I checked and USPS recently jacked their prices sky high for international shipping. (EMS = Express Mail Service)I'm also curious about how much their units weigh because $88 for international shipping sounds way too low. I plugged a 6 pound package into DHL's calculator. For 3 day express shipping - leaving Kansas City on a Monday and landing in Sydney on Thursday the same week, it was $149 if organised online (this doesn't take into account any customs delays - they only guarantee getting it to Sydney in that time-frame). Once things are cleared through customs and handed off to local carriers, delivery is usually pretty quick. You can end up having to pay for redelivery, though, because the tracking information isn't reliable with some carriers and they attempt delivery before the date shown on the tracking info. I know there've been a lot of customs problems with EMS packages coming from China to Australia recently - don't know if packages from the US are affected. Edit: Origin: China Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: repentance on February 21, 2013, 09:09:30 AM How much is it for a 33 pounds package via DHL vs EMS? Edit: Origin: China Here's a link to the DHL calculator. I can't find one for EMS. http://dct.dhl.com/input.jsp?langId=en&originCCId=CN Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: hardcore-fs on February 21, 2013, 09:23:40 AM you are not taking into account the fact thats If you pull a rep. in and offer them a long term contract, prices rapidly fall
Usually by over 50%. The reason being that they can bulk load the goods on pallets , then split shipments at a Shippers terminal. For example if you have 50 units going to Europe, by palleting then splitting the load in Europe, the shipping costs are WAY lower than sending single products. There are all sorts of cost savings that can be made for a 'contract', and it is nothing like typing a few numbers into a web page. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: repentance on February 21, 2013, 09:35:40 AM you are not taking into account the fact thats If you pull a rep. in and offer them a long term contract, prices rapidly fall Usually by over 50%. The reason being that they can bulk load the goods on pallets , then split shipments at a Shippers terminal. For example if you have 50 units going to Europe, by palleting then splitting the load in Europe, the shipping costs are WAY lower than sending single products. There are all sorts of cost savings that can be made for a 'contract', and it is nothing like typing a few numbers into a web page. This is true but it generally only works well if you're shipping in reasonable sized batches on a regular basis. It's useless when you're dribbling stuff out the door day by day. Here at least, you generally need to commit to a certain volume per month (usually by either weight and/or cubic metres as the agents essentially purchase the capacity in advance) and the shipment times can be less flexible than dealing with the freight companies directly. BFL would have been up shit creek if they'd signed shipping contracts based on any of their projected shipping dates. Even now, they don't really know their assembly capacity, when subsequent batches will really be ready for shipping or what demand will be once back orders are finally filled. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: Frizz23 on February 21, 2013, 03:31:18 PM Still... only 3 Avalons confirmed in the wild. I hope we don't say the same thing about BFL in a couple of month. Is there an estimate how many units BFL can produce per day? If we take Avalons output as a ballpark figure we are all fucked ... Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: repentance on February 21, 2013, 09:38:24 PM Still... only 3 Avalons confirmed in the wild. I hope we don't say the same thing about BFL in a couple of month. Is there an estimate how many units BFL can produce per day? If we take Avalons output as a ballpark figure we are all fucked ... The reflow oven in the pictures posted can produce 700 boards per day according to the manufacturer. Obviously there are going to be different lead times for the components. They probably don't have a realistic idea of their assembly capacity at the moment. Once they're caught up on their back orders, they may very well be able to keep pace with demand. Trying to complete back orders in-house mightn't be the wisest choice if it means that by the time the current back orders are cleared (estimated at May-June), they'll still be running two months behind on order fulfilment but BFL doesn't seem inclined to suspend new pre-orders until they catch up so that come June they can go to a turnaround time of under week. I feel like I'm the only BFL who has some sympathy for Josh. He's just the messenger and people's ire should be directed at those who are actually in control of the project - but those people are largely invisible. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: Puppet on February 21, 2013, 10:55:11 PM I feel like I'm the only BFL who has some sympathy for Josh. He's just the messenger No he isnt. He is COO. And he better start acting like one rather than acting as a messenger/apologist. I wont hold him personally accountable for all the previous missed deadlines before he got hired, but he is responsible for making and meeting them now. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: meowmeowbrowncow on February 21, 2013, 11:03:04 PM I feel like I'm the only BFL who has some sympathy for Josh. He's just the messenger No he isnt. He is COO. And he better start acting like one rather than acting as a messenger/apologist. I wont hold him personally accountable for all the previous missed deadlines before he got hired, but he is responsible for making and meeting them now. Something that people conveniently forget, or use selectively, is that everything is personal. One has a responsibility in what they participate in. To deny this is to deny the notion of integrity. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: repentance on February 21, 2013, 11:15:41 PM I feel like I'm the only BFL who has some sympathy for Josh. He's just the messenger No he isnt. He is COO. And he better start acting like one rather than acting as a messenger/apologist. I wont hold him personally accountable for all the previous missed deadlines before he got hired, but he is responsible for making and meeting them now. And Jody is the General Manager. Unfortunately, in small organisations job titles often bear little resemblance to actual areas of competence or responsibility. Josh is clearly not the project leader and he appears to be getting much of his information second-hand. Jody's last blog post was ridiculous coming from a General Manager. There needs to be one person giving updates and that person needs to be someone who actually knows what the fuck is going on rather than someone who's been cast in the role of community liaison because they run a mining pool and can "relate" to miners. If Josh is going to be given that role, then the project lead needs to be giving him regular, accurate information about where things are at rather than Josh always chasing information. I don't get the impression that Josh is the one setting deadlines at all. My impression is that he makes extrapolations based on the information given to him by others and has little direct control over anything. It's quite odd given that the original plan was for Josh to personally walk the chips through all the remaining steps once they left the fab, but perhaps that plan was more something which Josh hoped to do rather than something which was actually approved. I'm not sure how you can oversee a technical project if you don't know - for instance - that blank alignment wafers even exist and that not having one will slow down the bumping process. My perception is that it's easy for the people who are actually responsible to hide behind Josh and let him take the blame for any inaccurate information given to the community because they refuse to make official updates on the BFL website themselves. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: Dalkore on February 21, 2013, 11:31:06 PM ^^^^ Basically. Even though I think Josh needs to rise above the muck of BFL and trolling, I was hoping they would empower him more. But who knows, maybe he has been and it was just bad before and we are giving him a hard time. He just comes across cynical sometimes when I think instead him and bfl should be more transparent and understanding of people's frustration.
Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: Cluster2k on February 21, 2013, 11:49:14 PM I, like many others, am getting a little tired of the optimistic timelines frequently published by BFL employees. In January we were told BFL would be descending upon UPS/FedEx/EMS/etc like a swarm of angry locusts or whatever this week with their finished units. Yet we know the chips are still being prepared, let alone actually assembled in any finished units.
Please, just keep posting updates (none here for a long time: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=post;topic=145544.20;num_replies=21) and stop making very optimistic projections time and time again. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: repentance on February 21, 2013, 11:52:07 PM ^^^^ Basically. Even though I think Josh needs to rise above the muck of BFL and trolling, I was hoping they would empower him more. But who knows, maybe he has been and it was just bad before and we are giving him a hard time. He just comes across cynical sometimes when I think instead him and bfl should be more transparent and understanding of people's frustration. There's often a fair amount of nepotism in small companies with many of the staff being employed because they're relatives or friends of the owners rather than because they're the most competent person for a particular position. Somebody external coming into such an environment doesn't have a lot of power to insist that the people who's jobs aren't tied to actual performance lift their games. It's also an easy environment in which to regard your customers as a nuisance, as there are often close personal relationships between employees and there's a reluctance to acknowledge that someone you like who's "doing their best" might not be objectively competent. When a company with 22 employees has a CEO, a COO and a General Manager, there's some serious job title inflation going on and the job titles likely don't reflect experience or competence. Even BFL Steven (engineer) has no update on where the bumping is up to. Who the fuck is leading this project and why are they unable to give Josh relevant, timely updates? Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: repentance on February 22, 2013, 01:05:25 AM The "ASIC team" is "expecting" 40 chips for testing on Friday. But there's a sticky on the shoutbox about how 21 - 30 cm of snow will "paralyse BFL's location" and BFL StevenM said that half the staff are working remotely today. It looks like BFL will literally be able to blame the weather for the next delay they're going to inevitably announce.
Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: Phinnaeus Gage on February 22, 2013, 01:12:06 AM The "ASIC team" is "expecting" 40 chips for testing on Friday. But there's a sticky on the shoutbox about how 21 - 30 cm of snow will "paralyse BFL's location" and BFL StevenM said that half the staff are working remotely today. It looks like BFL will literally be able to blame the weather for the next delay they're going to inevitably announce. This is too good to refrain from posting. They're going to blame it on Q (Storm Q, it is dubbed). Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: Micon on February 22, 2013, 04:12:06 AM I feel like I'm the only BFL who has some sympathy for Josh. He's just the messenger No he isnt. He is COO. And he better start acting like one rather than acting as a messenger/apologist. I wont hold him personally accountable for all the previous missed deadlines before he got hired, but he is responsible for making and meeting them now. And Jody is the General Manager. Unfortunately, in small organisations job titles often bear little resemblance to actual areas of competence or responsibility. Josh is clearly not the project leader and he appears to be getting much of his information second-hand. Jody's last blog post was ridiculous coming from a General Manager. There needs to be one person giving updates and that person needs to be someone who actually knows what the fuck is going on rather than someone who's been cast in the role of community liaison because they run a mining pool and can "relate" to miners. If Josh is going to be given that role, then the project lead needs to be giving him regular, accurate information about where things are at rather than Josh always chasing information. I don't get the impression that Josh is the one setting deadlines at all. My impression is that he makes extrapolations based on the information given to him by others and has little direct control over anything. It's quite odd given that the original plan was for Josh to personally walk the chips through all the remaining steps once they left the fab, but perhaps that plan was more something which Josh hoped to do rather than something which was actually approved. I'm not sure how you can oversee a technical project if you don't know - for instance - that blank alignment wafers even exist and that not having one will slow down the bumping process. My perception is that it's easy for the people who are actually responsible to hide behind Josh and let him take the blame for any inaccurate information given to the community because they refuse to make official updates on the BFL website themselves. I think at this point we have to at least entertain the idea that Josh's task at BFL is to type things into the computer to calm what must be hordes of angry customers having watched 2 different ASIC makers come online and the network hash rate spiking. months of delays, the silence since 2/14, and the lack of pictures is eyebrow-raising at the very least at this point. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: Unacceptable on February 22, 2013, 04:19:32 AM I feel like I'm the only BFL who has some sympathy for Josh. He's just the messenger No he isnt. He is COO. And he better start acting like one rather than acting as a messenger/apologist. I wont hold him personally accountable for all the previous missed deadlines before he got hired, but he is responsible for making and meeting them now. And Jody is the General Manager. Unfortunately, in small organisations job titles often bear little resemblance to actual areas of competence or responsibility. Josh is clearly not the project leader and he appears to be getting much of his information second-hand. Jody's last blog post was ridiculous coming from a General Manager. There needs to be one person giving updates and that person needs to be someone who actually knows what the fuck is going on rather than someone who's been cast in the role of community liaison because they run a mining pool and can "relate" to miners. If Josh is going to be given that role, then the project lead needs to be giving him regular, accurate information about where things are at rather than Josh always chasing information. I don't get the impression that Josh is the one setting deadlines at all. My impression is that he makes extrapolations based on the information given to him by others and has little direct control over anything. It's quite odd given that the original plan was for Josh to personally walk the chips through all the remaining steps once they left the fab, but perhaps that plan was more something which Josh hoped to do rather than something which was actually approved. I'm not sure how you can oversee a technical project if you don't know - for instance - that blank alignment wafers even exist and that not having one will slow down the bumping process. My perception is that it's easy for the people who are actually responsible to hide behind Josh and let him take the blame for any inaccurate information given to the community because they refuse to make official updates on the BFL website themselves. I think at this point we have to at least entertain the idea that Josh's task at BFL is to type things into the computer to calm what must be hordes of angry customers having watched 2 different ASIC makers come online and the network hash rate spiking. months of delays, the silence since 2/14, and the lack of pictures is eyebrow-raising at the very least at this point. Your funny Micon :D If your as much a gambler as you say you are,you should see what most of see in these ASIC's coming from BFL(or anyone for that fact). I myself am not a "gambler",I don't like card games or any of the "casino" games either.....too much risk IMO. So....seeing your attitude about BFL is quite perplexing to me ::) Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: smoothie on February 22, 2013, 04:36:23 AM I feel like I'm the only BFL who has some sympathy for Josh. He's just the messenger No he isnt. He is COO. And he better start acting like one rather than acting as a messenger/apologist. I wont hold him personally accountable for all the previous missed deadlines before he got hired, but he is responsible for making and meeting them now. And Jody is the General Manager. Unfortunately, in small organisations job titles often bear little resemblance to actual areas of competence or responsibility. Josh is clearly not the project leader and he appears to be getting much of his information second-hand. Jody's last blog post was ridiculous coming from a General Manager. There needs to be one person giving updates and that person needs to be someone who actually knows what the fuck is going on rather than someone who's been cast in the role of community liaison because they run a mining pool and can "relate" to miners. If Josh is going to be given that role, then the project lead needs to be giving him regular, accurate information about where things are at rather than Josh always chasing information. I don't get the impression that Josh is the one setting deadlines at all. My impression is that he makes extrapolations based on the information given to him by others and has little direct control over anything. It's quite odd given that the original plan was for Josh to personally walk the chips through all the remaining steps once they left the fab, but perhaps that plan was more something which Josh hoped to do rather than something which was actually approved. I'm not sure how you can oversee a technical project if you don't know - for instance - that blank alignment wafers even exist and that not having one will slow down the bumping process. My perception is that it's easy for the people who are actually responsible to hide behind Josh and let him take the blame for any inaccurate information given to the community because they refuse to make official updates on the BFL website themselves. I think at this point we have to at least entertain the idea that Josh's task at BFL is to type things into the computer to calm what must be hordes of angry customers having watched 2 different ASIC makers come online and the network hash rate spiking. months of delays, the silence since 2/14, and the lack of pictures is eyebrow-raising at the very least at this point. +1 so funny to see the first ASIC company be the ...well basically the last to come online of the few that started. BFL even had the most pre-order capital. So fail. So fail. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: Micon on February 22, 2013, 04:40:11 AM I feel like I'm the only BFL who has some sympathy for Josh. He's just the messenger No he isnt. He is COO. And he better start acting like one rather than acting as a messenger/apologist. I wont hold him personally accountable for all the previous missed deadlines before he got hired, but he is responsible for making and meeting them now. And Jody is the General Manager. Unfortunately, in small organisations job titles often bear little resemblance to actual areas of competence or responsibility. Josh is clearly not the project leader and he appears to be getting much of his information second-hand. Jody's last blog post was ridiculous coming from a General Manager. There needs to be one person giving updates and that person needs to be someone who actually knows what the fuck is going on rather than someone who's been cast in the role of community liaison because they run a mining pool and can "relate" to miners. If Josh is going to be given that role, then the project lead needs to be giving him regular, accurate information about where things are at rather than Josh always chasing information. I don't get the impression that Josh is the one setting deadlines at all. My impression is that he makes extrapolations based on the information given to him by others and has little direct control over anything. It's quite odd given that the original plan was for Josh to personally walk the chips through all the remaining steps once they left the fab, but perhaps that plan was more something which Josh hoped to do rather than something which was actually approved. I'm not sure how you can oversee a technical project if you don't know - for instance - that blank alignment wafers even exist and that not having one will slow down the bumping process. My perception is that it's easy for the people who are actually responsible to hide behind Josh and let him take the blame for any inaccurate information given to the community because they refuse to make official updates on the BFL website themselves. I think at this point we have to at least entertain the idea that Josh's task at BFL is to type things into the computer to calm what must be hordes of angry customers having watched 2 different ASIC makers come online and the network hash rate spiking. months of delays, the silence since 2/14, and the lack of pictures is eyebrow-raising at the very least at this point. Your funny Micon :D If your as much a gambler as you say you are,you should see what most of see in these ASIC's coming from BFL(or anyone for that fact). I myself am not a "gambler",I don't like card games or any of the "casino" games either.....too much risk IMO. So....seeing your attitude about BFL is quite perplexing to me ::) IMO if you have a BFL pre-order, or really any ASIC order for that matter, you are absolutely gambling. It may not be on the turn of a card, but in fact on the legitimacy of the business you have ordered from. At this stage ASICminer is pretty impressive but won't be commercially available it doesn't look like, and Avalon has not shipped enough units to say "look at where you can buy ASIC mining from," so I'm still doing as you are, waiting and watching. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: smoothie on February 22, 2013, 04:58:00 AM I was goin to bump some wafers, but then I got high.
I was goin to go right down there and sit in their office too, but then I got hiiiigh. And now I got no asics, and I know whyyy!! Sing it baby! :D :D :D Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: Unacceptable on February 22, 2013, 07:15:14 AM I feel like I'm the only BFL who has some sympathy for Josh. He's just the messenger No he isnt. He is COO. And he better start acting like one rather than acting as a messenger/apologist. I wont hold him personally accountable for all the previous missed deadlines before he got hired, but he is responsible for making and meeting them now. And Jody is the General Manager. Unfortunately, in small organisations job titles often bear little resemblance to actual areas of competence or responsibility. Josh is clearly not the project leader and he appears to be getting much of his information second-hand. Jody's last blog post was ridiculous coming from a General Manager. There needs to be one person giving updates and that person needs to be someone who actually knows what the fuck is going on rather than someone who's been cast in the role of community liaison because they run a mining pool and can "relate" to miners. If Josh is going to be given that role, then the project lead needs to be giving him regular, accurate information about where things are at rather than Josh always chasing information. I don't get the impression that Josh is the one setting deadlines at all. My impression is that he makes extrapolations based on the information given to him by others and has little direct control over anything. It's quite odd given that the original plan was for Josh to personally walk the chips through all the remaining steps once they left the fab, but perhaps that plan was more something which Josh hoped to do rather than something which was actually approved. I'm not sure how you can oversee a technical project if you don't know - for instance - that blank alignment wafers even exist and that not having one will slow down the bumping process. My perception is that it's easy for the people who are actually responsible to hide behind Josh and let him take the blame for any inaccurate information given to the community because they refuse to make official updates on the BFL website themselves. I think at this point we have to at least entertain the idea that Josh's task at BFL is to type things into the computer to calm what must be hordes of angry customers having watched 2 different ASIC makers come online and the network hash rate spiking. months of delays, the silence since 2/14, and the lack of pictures is eyebrow-raising at the very least at this point. Your funny Micon :D If your as much a gambler as you say you are,you should see what most of see in these ASIC's coming from BFL(or anyone for that fact). I myself am not a "gambler",I don't like card games or any of the "casino" games either.....too much risk IMO. So....seeing your attitude about BFL is quite perplexing to me ::) IMO if you have a BFL pre-order, or really any ASIC order for that matter, you are absolutely gambling. It may not be on the turn of a card, but in fact on the legitimacy of the business you have ordered from. At this stage ASICminer is pretty impressive but won't be commercially available it doesn't look like, and Avalon has not shipped enough units to say "look at where you can buy ASIC mining from," so I'm still doing as you are, waiting and watching. Uh,no I'm waiting only on my order from......................................wait for it............................................BFL :D It's about as much a gamble as when the next asteroid is going to hit earth.............................................when!!!!! :D Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: Puppet on February 22, 2013, 07:50:14 AM And Jody is the General Manager. Unfortunately, in small organisations job titles often bear little resemblance to actual areas of competence or responsibility. Josh is clearly not the project leader and he appears to be getting much of his information second-hand. Jody's last blog post was ridiculous coming from a General Manager. If Josh doesnt know, he should keep his mouth shut and stop making bold claims and promises he cant keep. Not too mentions bets he will lose. But more importantly, its his damn job to know or find out. What are they paying him for otherwise? And remember, you are paying him. As for Jody, she promised shipment in June or something, didnt she? I wouldnt be too surprised if she turned out to be correct. Quote There needs to be one person giving updates and that person needs to be someone who actually knows what the fuck is going on rather than someone who's been cast in the role of community liaison because they run a mining pool and can "relate" to miners. If Josh is going to be given that role, then the project lead needs to be giving him regular, accurate information about where things are at rather than Josh always chasing information. I don't get the impression that Josh is the one setting deadlines at all. My impression is that he makes extrapolations based on the information given to him by others and has little direct control over anything. Honestly, Josh seems to be acting like I did on my first job 15 years ago, when my idea of project management was acting as a go between between developers and customers, sugar coating the bad news to the customer, giving it to him little by little, begging the devs to hurry up and never see a delay coming until after it had happened. I had no clue what I was doing, and I failed to realize the devs were acting to me just the same way i was acting towards the customer, and no one was really managing anything. The only thing i managed was customer frustration and it definitely was my fault that neither I or my customer had a realistic view throughout the project. Project management is all about managing risks. You cant manage a bloody thing if you cant even identify the risks. This is all the more important if you are subcontracting most things out and have no direct control over it. Quote It's quite odd given that the original plan was for Josh to personally walk the chips through all the remaining steps once they left the fab, but perhaps that plan was more something which Josh hoped to do rather than something which was actually approved. I'm not sure how you can oversee a technical project if you don't know - for instance - that blank alignment wafers even exist and that not having one will slow down the bumping process. Exactly. Now Im not an electrical engineer either, but im not sure how he expects chips and PCBs to be fully tested and qualified the very same day they might arrive at the testing facility. Quote My perception is that it's easy for the people who are actually responsible to hide behind Josh Josh is actually responsible. He may not be able to speed up anything, and whatever he does, maybe there wont even be a single shipped asic until summer and that might not be his fault, but its his fault for not knowing this and keep failing to deliver on his promises. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: repentance on February 22, 2013, 08:53:18 AM Has kano left the building yet?
Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: DobZombie on February 22, 2013, 11:34:53 AM At this stage BFL would be better off saying "mid-March" and pleasantly surprising people by being ready to ship early than giving another overly optimistic "worst case scenario" and failing to meet it. 22 February was supposed to be the "worst case scenario". I'm also curious about how much their units weigh because $88 for international shipping sounds way too low. Are you friggin serious? Their units would weight 500g - 1kg MAX. I got a large package from the US with a computer case in it that weighed over 5kg sent for $55. It only took 4 business days to arrive in Australia. So no, $88 is a ridiculous price for international shipping. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: DobZombie on February 22, 2013, 11:39:24 AM Micon :D So....seeing your attitude about BFL is quite perplexing to me ::) BFL_Josh made Micon look like a fool. Micon spends his days now chucking tantrums over forums, made up websites (whose sole purpose is for self promotion), and what ever other medium he can get his weird skinny hands on. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: Bicknellski on February 22, 2013, 12:21:50 PM And Jody is the General Manager. Unfortunately, in small organisations job titles often bear little resemblance to actual areas of competence or responsibility. Josh is clearly not the project leader and he appears to be getting much of his information second-hand. Jody's last blog post was ridiculous coming from a General Manager. If Josh doesnt know, he should keep his mouth shut and stop making bold claims and promises he cant keep. Not too mentions bets he will lose. But more importantly, its his damn job to know or find out. What are they paying him for otherwise? And remember, you are paying him. As for Jody, she promised shipment in June or something, didnt she? I wouldnt be too surprised if she turned out to be correct. Quote There needs to be one person giving updates and that person needs to be someone who actually knows what the fuck is going on rather than someone who's been cast in the role of community liaison because they run a mining pool and can "relate" to miners. If Josh is going to be given that role, then the project lead needs to be giving him regular, accurate information about where things are at rather than Josh always chasing information. I don't get the impression that Josh is the one setting deadlines at all. My impression is that he makes extrapolations based on the information given to him by others and has little direct control over anything. Honestly, Josh seems to be acting like I did on my first job 15 years ago, when my idea of project management was acting as a go between between developers and customers, sugar coating the bad news to the customer, giving it to him little by little, begging the devs to hurry up and never see a delay coming until after it had happened. I had no clue what I was doing, and I failed to realize the devs were acting to me just the same way i was acting towards the customer, and no one was really managing anything. The only thing i managed was customer frustration and it definitely was my fault that neither I or my customer had a realistic view throughout the project. Project management is all about managing risks. You cant manage a bloody thing if you cant even identify the risks. This is all the more important if you are subcontracting most things out and have no direct control over it. Quote It's quite odd given that the original plan was for Josh to personally walk the chips through all the remaining steps once they left the fab, but perhaps that plan was more something which Josh hoped to do rather than something which was actually approved. I'm not sure how you can oversee a technical project if you don't know - for instance - that blank alignment wafers even exist and that not having one will slow down the bumping process. Exactly. Now Im not an electrical engineer either, but im not sure how he expects chips and PCBs to be fully tested and qualified the very same day they might arrive at the testing facility. Quote My perception is that it's easy for the people who are actually responsible to hide behind Josh Josh is actually responsible. He may not be able to speed up anything, and whatever he does, maybe there wont even be a single shipped asic until summer and that might not be his fault, but its his fault for not knowing this and keep failing to deliver on his promises. [/quote +1 Yuuup! Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: Frizz23 on February 22, 2013, 12:26:21 PM BFL_Josh made Micon look like a fool. ... The art of self-deception some BFL asshamsters indulge in is still amazing. Face it: You have been fucked again. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: DobZombie on February 22, 2013, 12:41:28 PM Face it: You have been fucked again. Ya mum's face is... Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: RHA on February 22, 2013, 04:40:30 PM Dear Unacceptable, don't quote the people who have orange Ignore button.
Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: PuertoLibre on February 22, 2013, 09:50:12 PM 04:46 PM] grnbrg :
From kanoi@freenode://cgminer - Firmware limitation for the MiniRig is 30 boards. Which may or may not fit in the MR chassis. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: SolarSilver on February 22, 2013, 10:11:24 PM Still... only 3 Avalons confirmed in the wild. Actually since 20130220 there are at least 4 in the wild https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=145885.0 Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: repentance on February 22, 2013, 10:55:44 PM 04:46 PM] grnbrg : From kanoi@freenode://cgminer - Firmware limitation for the MiniRig is 30 boards. Which may or may not fit in the MR chassis. Is this a real problem. Josh has mentioned that that their specs are based on 40% of theoretical hashing capacity, so would it be possible for then to over-clock to reach the advertised 1.5 TH with less boards. Does anyone even know how many chips are going to be on their standard board - I presume either 4 or 8? Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: SLok on February 22, 2013, 11:04:02 PM 04:46 PM] grnbrg : From kanoi@freenode://cgminer - Firmware limitation for the MiniRig is 30 boards. Which may or may not fit in the MR chassis. Is this a real problem. Josh has mentioned that that their specs are based on 40% of theoretical hashing capacity, so would it be possible for then to over-clock to reach the advertised 1.5 TH with less boards. Does anyone even know how many chips are going to be on their standard board - I presume either 4 or 8? Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: repentance on February 22, 2013, 11:11:38 PM 04:46 PM] grnbrg : From kanoi@freenode://cgminer - Firmware limitation for the MiniRig is 30 boards. Which may or may not fit in the MR chassis. Is this a real problem. Josh has mentioned that that their specs are based on 40% of theoretical hashing capacity, so would it be possible for then to over-clock to reach the advertised 1.5 TH with less boards. Does anyone even know how many chips are going to be on their standard board - I presume either 4 or 8? So kano's really just saying that the maximum number of additional boards which could be added to the mini-rig is 5 (which would take it up to 1800 at advertised performance levels)? Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: SLok on February 22, 2013, 11:38:36 PM 04:46 PM] grnbrg : From kanoi@freenode://cgminer - Firmware limitation for the MiniRig is 30 boards. Which may or may not fit in the MR chassis. Is this a real problem. Josh has mentioned that that their specs are based on 40% of theoretical hashing capacity, so would it be possible for then to over-clock to reach the advertised 1.5 TH with less boards. Does anyone even know how many chips are going to be on their standard board - I presume either 4 or 8? So kano's really just saying that the maximum number of additional boards which could be added to the mini-rig is 5 (which would take it up to 1800 at advertised performance levels)? The advertised speed is 1500GH/s, not 1800GH/s http://products.butterflylabs.com/homepage/1500gh-bitcoin-miner.html (http://products.butterflylabs.com/homepage/1500gh-bitcoin-miner.html) Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: PuertoLibre on February 23, 2013, 12:54:48 AM [07:50 PM] btcftw : what's the latest news? are these things moving along? [07:51 PM] Hiver : The latest is the chips are in bumping and will be there until bumping says so. [07:52 PM] onryo : Hi guy. Any news? [07:52 PM] Hiver : Whoever told Josh two days should get a kick in the pants. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: Logik on February 23, 2013, 01:16:55 AM The thing that amazes me the most is the nature of his language. He seems to over-promise at every single opportunity. Take his Feb 21st update for example: "We should hopefully have more information on that later tonight or tomorrow". And yet (2 days later), there is no follow up post. Could he not simply say "We will update you as soon as we have more information?". There is no reason to volunteer a micro deadline like that.. It's a common pattern through every single one of his updates.
Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: Unacceptable on February 23, 2013, 01:40:02 AM Dear Unacceptable, don't quote the people who have orange Ignore button. Uh...you have them ignored,not me.I listen to all points of view.....no matter how insane :P :D Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: DobZombie on February 23, 2013, 02:09:45 AM You made me lol :) Also, I've never seen crack ANYWHERE in Australia :P Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: hardcore-fs on February 23, 2013, 06:22:01 AM What Exactly is this "bumping" I keep hearing about.
seems some people say it is applied to the wafer... others the die and yet another group say to the package. And then there is this "blank wafer" mask. I just have never heard so many bullshit terms applied to Semiconductor flow before. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: desper on February 23, 2013, 07:19:02 AM The following pdf might help explain what bumping is (the pdf comes from Fujitsu, but I don't think Fujitsu is the company BFL is using for its ASIC). As far as I can see, bumping means that small blobs of solder (bumps) are applied to the chip to make contact between the chip and the packaging. It looks to be a very delicate process.
http://www.fujitsu.com/downloads/MICRO/fma/pdf/ASIC20PKG.pdf Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: Frizz23 on February 23, 2013, 08:36:15 AM Also, I've never seen crack ANYWHERE in Australia :P You call that "P", no? Like the Kiwis do ... Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: repentance on February 23, 2013, 09:05:52 AM Also, I've never seen crack ANYWHERE in Australia :P You call that "P", no? Like the Kiwis do ... Cocaine is insanely expensive here in Australia so there's not really a market for cocaine which has been cheaply free-based. Those who can afford coke - which ranges from $300 - $600 per gram here - can afford to pay for coke which has been free-based properly. Crystal methamphetamine is a lot cheaper. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: DobZombie on February 23, 2013, 12:29:54 PM Cocaine is insanely expensive here in Australia so there's not really a market for cocaine which has been cheaply free-based. Those who can afford coke - which ranges from $300 - $600 per gram here - can afford to pay for coke which has been free-based properly. Crystal methamphetamine is a lot cheaper. Well, where I am it's about the same price. It's lasts way longer tho :) Like the Kiwis do ... Kiwis eat chups. I can't eat chups, can't chew bro. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: PuertoLibre on February 23, 2013, 03:33:24 PM Code: [09:47 AM] Hiver : or if he decided to do it at all. Problems with contractors doing sub-contracting? Is that the reason for the delays? Posted under the FAIR USE ACT for the purposes of discussion and education. Edit: BTC price may now be in a devaluation trend. Bad news for all! Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: kano on February 23, 2013, 03:54:23 PM 04:46 PM] grnbrg : Fucking hell.From kanoi@freenode://cgminer - Firmware limitation for the MiniRig is 30 boards. Which may or may not fit in the MR chassis. Remember all that shit about quoting me in the Avalon thread that you never did quote me? (i.e. you were wrong you retard) If you wanna quote me - at least fucking get it right .. well I guess you did the same before: never quoted me - made up shit - so I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Code: 08:41 <@kanoi> oh yeah and the max is 30 cards Anyway - the MR doesn't require 30 - and the PSU will be able to handle 1.5TH/s Time is UTC+11 coz my irc is at home ... yeah still in the USA for another day and a bit :) Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: PuertoLibre on February 23, 2013, 03:59:55 PM Retard I quoted Grnbrg not you. Go take it up with him.
As for your quotes they are probably from IRC which is not where this quote is from. As for all the rest of your message, yes it is true as far as I read. You can keep trying to revise history but unless you find yourself with a room full of retards and a willing gullibility it won't work. I don't need to quote any tiny segment, I provided the [link to your] entire history of your postings in various places for anyone to read in context. Whether people took that upon themselves or not is a separate question. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: kano on February 23, 2013, 04:03:26 PM Retard I quoted Grnbrg not you. Go take it up with him. Well as usual you don't quote directly then claim it as truth :)As for your quotes they are probably from IRC which is not where this quote is from. As for all the rest of your message, yes it is true as far as I read. You can keep trying to revise history but unless you find yourself with a room full of retards and a willing gullibility it won't work. I don't need to quote any tiny segment, I provided the [link to your] entire history of your postings in various places for anyone to read in context. Whether people took that upon themselves or not is a separate question. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: PuertoLibre on February 23, 2013, 04:09:07 PM You are fretting about something that is not worth while. Grnbrg said pretty much exactly what you told him in your IRC log from the looks of it.
I invite people to go look and compare it for themselves. You'll see the dig from the samurai wanna-be is nonesense. So what your sword toting dig is bitching about is none of my business. Go message the grievances in my PM box. I cannot guarantee I'll read it though. Well as usual you don't quote directly then claim it as truth :) By the way genius, it's IRC, you are either there to witness it in the moment or you aren't. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: kano on February 23, 2013, 04:16:16 PM You are fretting about something that is not worth while. Grnbrg said pretty much exactly what you told him in your IRC log from the looks of it. Yes you weren't there to witness it ...I invite people to go look and compare it for themselves. You'll see the dig from the samurai wanna-be is nonesense. So what your sword toting dig is bitching about is none of my business. Go message the grievances in my PM box. I cannot guarantee I'll read it though. Well as usual you don't quote directly then claim it as truth :) By the way genius, it's IRC, you are either there to witness it in the moment or you aren't. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: PuertoLibre on February 23, 2013, 04:22:13 PM Yes you weren't there to witness it ... Anyway, I'll stop replying. Better things to do. edit: for those that do not know Code: [11:56 AM] ASIC-J : grnbrg is very good at updating. He is usually around on shoutbox and knows what is going on. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: dresdenreader on February 23, 2013, 10:10:25 PM Code: [09:47 AM] Hiver : or if he decided to do it at all. Problems with contractors doing sub-contracting? Is that the reason for the delays? Posted under the FAIR USE ACT for the purposes of discussion and education. Edit: BTC price may now be in a devaluation trend. Bad news for all! I'm not sure exactly what the point of posting that was. I think we can all understand that customers with BFL are unhappy right now and that Josh has been really bad with dates through out the whole project. However, posting a conversation about people speculating on all of the information, isn't that just more speculation? Also, their whole conversation about making a kickstarter for an ASIC product. I think the old phrase, "put up or shut up" fits rather well in the situation. Josh is a very easy target in all of this for a number of reasons: - He is the only one giving updates. - The dates he is giving are estimates and should be treated as such. At this point I wouldn't take any of his estimates at face value, I think people probably know that by now. - You're basically dealing with a company that is doing this for the first time (at least on this scale), didn't do enough research into time frames for specific processes involving the chip manufacturing process, and Josh has to take the blame for all of that. - The problems occurring aren't caused by Josh, but he's the bad guy, so it's easy to make fun of him. My best analogy for Josh right now would be someone like Jay Wilson. Jay Wilson didn't code, design, direct, produce and publish D3 all by himself, but he is the one that gets all of the blame for people thinking it's a subpar product. All in all I think that if someone wants to get off their ass and start a kickstarter project for an ASIC product, they should do it. I think it's easy to criticize someone and say, "If I were in charge, this is how I would do it!" But it's a different thing all together to say, "I'm going to fully research this, find out where other companies like BFL, Avalon and bASIC have failed, make a business plan, and do a better job than any other ASIC manufacturer out there." I'm certainly not defending Josh. I think that his estimations are irresponsible and upset his customers. I think that he is dealing with companies that typically have a 3-4 month timeframe on projects and not a 1-2 week timeframe on projects like this. I think that BFL as a whole did not do enough research into every single process of manufacturing, in regards to timeframes. I'm not trolling here, and I would like an honest answer. You seem like a fairly intelligent person and you know how to frame intelligent arguments, but I'm not sure why you're keeping up the constant crusade against Josh and BFL. Is there a specific reason? Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: RHA on February 23, 2013, 10:51:12 PM Dresdenreader, don't quote him. His Ignore button is orange. The quoting spoils the purpose of the button for others.
Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: PuertoLibre on February 24, 2013, 05:41:05 AM I'm certainly not defending Josh. Respectfully, unlike many BFL customers, you don't seem to be particularly offended by the multiple month wait. BFL customers are starting to resign themselves to a march shipping date as we speak. (on the BFL forums)I think that his estimations are irresponsible and upset his customers. I think that he is dealing with companies that typically have a 3-4 month timeframe on projects and not a 1-2 week timeframe on projects like this. I think that BFL as a whole did not do enough research into every single process of manufacturing, in regards to timeframes. I believe that is a false sentiment.I believe (and actually hope) they actually did do due diligence before taking on vast sums of cash. Though, lets take your premise and assume they didn't. This [if your hypothesis is correct] just goes to show how they aren't doing their part to keep the project going well. One of the points that Josh used to bash the Avalon team on was the fact that they didn't have [supposedly] the amount of collective experience that the BFL engineering team had. Yet you see them struggling with things that they shouldn't be struggling in. They don't appear to be well informed in my opinion. Team Avalon started the wafers contract on 11/26/2012 and by January 14th 2013 had already finalized shipping preparations. They were on the ball and got things rolling. Of course, this is a somewhat unfair comparison because they were using less layers [29] in their 110nm process node. So they had to wait less to achieve a result. BFL uses a 65nm process (which requires more time...assuming they have more layers...that is) but seems to fumble at each stage. Even after the fab, they continue to fumble through each step. The only eventuality the Avalon Team did not properly investigate was customs. Add to this the fact that CNY was around the corner and unfortunately "Shit Happens". Despite this month of delay...BFL is still fumbling to this day, even unto March 2013. As other have said in the shoutbox, what does this mean for the second wafer set coming down the pike? Will that also be delayed by 1 to 2 weeks as the first was? I'm not trolling here, and I would like an honest answer. You seem like a fairly intelligent person and you know how to frame intelligent arguments, but I'm not sure why you're keeping up the constant crusade against Josh and BFL. Is there a specific reason? Yes, Josh likes to post trash talk against the Avalon Team. Example: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/923-avalon-unit-delivered-bfl-hq.html http://i46.tinypic.com/307p938.jpg --------------- At the very least, I post actual things of interest. Most of what happens in the shoutbox never gets written into the "official" updates posts. That includes various specific details. Unfortunately, I don't have a log of that to prove it. I understand if you skimmed the latest shoutbox log and do not notice the references being made to prior conversations within the shoutbox. You have to get on at specific times to see the various back and forth. If not, you'll miss it and you won't get it through the regular updates. ------------------------- Needless to say, what the majority end up reading is not necessarily all the fine details of the situation. To find out what is happening you should log in to the shoutbox and keep abreast of the situation. The official updates are just a nice "summary" with certain key details left out. It makes the rep rage in anger when one does that. ------------------------ In either case, I do not see what any BFL customer would be offended by if you post details in front of them. Perhaps people don't want to know more about these situations? Edit: By the way, the hardcore supporters are now often tongue lashing BFL in the shoutbox quite openly. I wonder what it was that they saw that made them feel that way. Their disenfranchised sentiment is now often leaking into the open BFL forum. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: Phinnaeus Gage on February 24, 2013, 08:12:42 AM Quote At the very least, I post actual things of interest. Most of what happens in the shoutbox never gets written into the "official" updates posts. That includes various specific details. Unfortunately, I don't have a log of that to prove it. I understand if you skimmed the latest shoutbox log and do not notice the references being made to prior conversations within the shoutbox. You have to get on at specific times to see the various back and forth. If not, you'll miss it and you won't get it through the regular updates. Have you tried the archive button? Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: Bicknellski on February 24, 2013, 08:47:36 AM The thing that amazes me the most is the nature of his language. He seems to over-promise at every single opportunity. Take his Feb 21st update for example: "We should hopefully have more information on that later tonight or tomorrow". And yet (2 days later), there is no follow up post. Could he not simply say "We will update you as soon as we have more information?". There is no reason to volunteer a micro deadline like that.. It's a common pattern through every single one of his updates. +1 You need to school him on expectation management. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: Micon on February 24, 2013, 12:41:56 PM The thing that amazes me the most is the nature of his language. He seems to over-promise at every single opportunity. Take his Feb 21st update for example: "We should hopefully have more information on that later tonight or tomorrow". And yet (2 days later), there is no follow up post. Could he not simply say "We will update you as soon as we have more information?". There is no reason to volunteer a micro deadline like that.. It's a common pattern through every single one of his updates. +1 You need to school him on expectation management. at this stage Josh Zerlan's function is to explicitly mismanage expectations of his customers and possible future customers. Take his latest post for example: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/690-13-jan-2013-asic-update-discussion-thread-55.html#post15632 Quote from: Josh Zerlan Buddy3315, You have a fundamental flaw in your statement. It's based entirely around the fact that we somehow knew about the delays before hand and have been lying to people all along. I just can't take people seriously when they start off with that premise, because it is patently false. In the beginning I gave vague dates because we did not have hard dates. Everyone cries for transparency so I give hard dates and we miss them. Do you think I just pull these dates out of thin air? No, I get these dates from the people who are doing the work. I know some of them, sometimes, are not going to meet their dates, but when I give you vague dates you get angry because it's not a specific date. That's the problem. You want specific dates but there are not specific dates to be had. Again, we go back to the fact that if you think you can do better, why are you on this forum, buying these products? You should be making your own and showing the world how it's done. That said, Buddy3315, I think it may be time for you to get a refund. You are unhappy and it's quite understandable and if I were in your position and your viewpoint, I would be seeking a refund. We will happily give you a refund (and a refund to anyone else who is tired of waiting or believes that we are somehow lying to people to string them along.) I have given you the best dates I can and they have been missed, we apologize for that deeply. I also understand that it's very easy to say "Well, you should do this or you should have done that." but the fact of the matter is that it's NOT that easy. The world simply doesn't work like that, no matter how much you might want to believe it does. I point to the simple fact that every ASIC manufacturer for Bitcoin has been delayed (or destroyed). If it were as simple as people claim, you'd think at least one of them would have delivered on time and on spec, but not a single vendor has delivered on time or on spec. Why do you think that is? Because they are all lying or because it's a difficult project and unexpected events happen? Occams razor would tend to dictate the latter, since it's unlikely every ASIC vendor is lying. Couple that with the fact that the first vendor to ship a working product in volume stands to make a hell of a lot of money, so intentionally delaying or lying or what have you is nothing but detrimental to the process. seems like he knows they will continue to miss dates, even though he is the one posting dates. "vague dates?" IMO fire the person or company that told you Nov 2012 would be shipping. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: michaelmclees on February 24, 2013, 02:11:51 PM That has been what I have been saying for months. They'll set some deadline for a date and when they date finally comes, they then announce that there was a delay at some point, even though they surely must have known that the delay would be coming for days or weeks before their announcement. I expressed it thusly on November 27th ...
"This is exactly why I had to cancel one of my orders. If BFL were an employee calling in late to work, it would be like this. Work starts at 9:00. Travel time is 30 minutes assuming no traffic. There is some level of traffic 90% of the time. BFL plans to leave at 8:25. "Announcement - I hope to be at work at 9:00 tomorrow ... assuming nothing goes wrong. I even have a buffer in case there is traffic." Time is 8:45 and BFL just leaves the house for work. "Announcement - Everything still hunky dory. Not late to work yet and I'm driving really fast." Time is 8:55 and BFL hits traffic. BFL reroutes. "Announcement - I might not be into work at time, but I hope I'll make it." Time is 9:15 and BFL is now sitting in worse traffic on the new route. "Announcement - Looks like I'm going to be late for work... probably. Don't worry though, someone else will probably be late as well so no worries. Oh, by the way, when I come in, you'll get the best darned employee you've ever seen. I'm the reliable Ferrari of employees!" Time is 9:30 and boss is calling BFL's cell, upset that he's late. BFL doesn't directly answer his questions and seems evasive. Boss asks what time BFL left the house - no answer. Boss asks how often there is traffic - no answer. Boss asks what kind of coffee BFL had that morning - Folgers, 3 sugars, no milk. "Announcement - I hope to be in at 10:00. I never 'promised' 9:00. I just hoped to be in at 9:00, just like I 'hope' to be in at 10:00. Why so upset?" Time is 9:59 and the entire factory is furiously waiting on BFL to come because he has one of 3 keys to the lock that shuts everyone else out altogether. He's costing them money because had he simply been more honest about his situation from the get go, when he left his house in the first place, the boss would have called in Thomas or Evelan, because they also have keys, but today was their day off. "Announcement - Making this announcement with 1 minutes to spare! That's right... Time to spare on this one. No new details other than the fact that I've put premium gas in my car and I'll probably, maybe, hopefully, be in around, nearby, or close to mid, late, probably end of the 10 o'clock hour. My contract says you can't fire me until 11:00 anyway ... so really ... I'm still not even late." And... scene. Josh and everyone else at Butterfly Labs ... are you starting to see things from our perspective yet?" https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/437-asic-update-26-november-2012-a-6.html#post6356 Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: Frizz23 on February 24, 2013, 03:28:39 PM Good one, michaelmclees!!
Time is 9:30 and boss is calling BFL's cell, upset that he's late. BFL doesn't directly answer his questions and seems evasive. ... One more thing to add: "BFL insults boss and fellow employees (for not believing his sleazy story) calling them idiots and pathological liars. ..." [EDIT] I've seen you originally posted this on BFL forums on 11-27-2012. 3 month ago and still so true :) By the way ... Josh reply was this here: Quote from: BFL_Josh What I always wonder is, for people like Michael here and many others... they claim it's so easy to create a brand new product. But it makes me wonder why they aren't raking in the dough, having created their superior product that is so easy to build? blah blah blah ... Summarized: "Life is just so bloody hard. And unfair. Boo-hoo." According to Joshs logic no company in the world would be able to finish a product in time and budget. Yet there are new hairdryers, lawnmowers, mobile phones, notebooks, etc. every day. And many of us work for such companies that achieve the impossible. BFL simply sucks at project management. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: repentance on February 24, 2013, 10:00:19 PM The information flow at BFL is terrible. Once is a mistake, twice is a choice.
Josh's question about whether they've pulled dates out of thin air is an interesting one. In a sense, they have. Even if their estimates of how long the chips will take to package and how long it will take to assemble the boards are accurate, they're clearly not allowing for the fact that their order is going to have to be fitted in around other work being done by those facilities. The actual packaging may take < 24 hours, but there's no guarantee that the packaging facility will be able to start work on BFL's order the moment the chips arrive there because they're not being paid to sit around idle doing no other work while they wait for BFL's chips. They can't really book a specific time for packaging or for board assembly because they don't know when the chips will arrive at the packaging facility or at the assembly house. While it's annoying that customers latch onto their best case scenario estimates as though they were set in concrete, it's obvious that even their "worst case scenario" estimates bear no resemblance to reality. They need to review why they're coming up with wrong estimates and take measures to make their estimates more accurate - because this issue isn't going to disappear once their first batch starts shipping, it's going to continue for as long as they have unfulfilled back orders. "But it's hard" doesn't really wash as an excuse when you're still taking pre-orders for a product which has yet to be delivered. Not having a relatively accurate delivery date wouldn't matter if people hadn't paid for this product 8 months ago. It does matter when you're still taking pre-orders, though. Edit. Nasser's online in BFL shoutbox at the moment - here's your chance to ask him questions directly. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: Vagnavs on February 25, 2013, 01:42:27 AM They should be taking deposits instead of the full amounts. That would seem more to be a better way to go for both parties. But as for timelines, you can throw them out the window. They have had this and that excuse. They look to have the real deal, but it just a question of how long it will take to receive your order.
Regards, Brian Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: Cluster2k on February 25, 2013, 01:55:31 AM I placed my order in early September and after the way things have gone so far I have resigned myself to maybe receiving my order by late March. Add another week for international mail too.
Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: repentance on February 25, 2013, 02:00:47 AM They should be taking deposits instead of the full amounts. That would seem more to be a better way to go for both parties. But as for timelines, you can throw them out the window. They have had this and that excuse. They look to have the real deal, but it just a question of how long it will take to receive your order. Regards, Brian I think they'll deliver and their units will probably perform better than advertised specs - their customers will likely get more than they paid for in that respect. What's not clear - and what affects the company and its investors more than its customers - is whether they'll be able to remain competitive in an environment where their first generation products are hitting the market at the same time as other vendors are working on their gen 2 products and new players are also entering the retail ASIC market. By the time they've caught up with their back orders around June, there's no guarantee that theirs will be the superior products available at a retail level. If their projections were based on having a dominant market share for a prolonged period of time, then further delays could have a serious impact on their bottom line. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: dresdenreader on February 25, 2013, 03:20:02 AM ------------------------ In either case, I do not see what any BFL customer would be offended by if you post details in front of them. Perhaps people don't want to know more about these situations? Edit: By the way, the hardcore supporters are now often tongue lashing BFL in the shoutbox quite openly. I wonder what it was that they saw that made them feel that way. Their disenfranchised sentiment is now often leaking into the open BFL forum. Yeah, the reason I'm not really offended is because I ordered February 2nd, far after the people who have actual legitimate grievances with not yet receiving a product. I actually enjoyed reading your response and I think that you have some valid points. I most definitely agree that Josh should stop openly talking trash about Avalon. I know it's fun to make fun of your competitors but when you make fun of a competitor about something you are specifically lacking that's little more than awkward projection and nobody wants to see that. I think one of the problems is that Josh squandered even the confidence that some of the hardcore supporters had left when he said bumping would take 2 days and it's been a little over a week. The main problem is that he's giving people best case estimates when he should be giving worst case estimates and then tacking on a week or two to those estimates. At least then if it finishes before those one to two weeks, he is under promising and over delivering, rather than over promising and under delivering. Granted, they didn't know they needed a blank wafer to make the process faster, but that makes me think they didn't do enough research on the bumping process beforehand. All in all I think there have been a lot of missteps, but I still honestly believe they will be delivering a superior product than Avalon but the timeframe is unfortunately taking much much longer than expected. Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: Syke on February 25, 2013, 03:26:33 AM I think one of the problems is that Josh squandered even the confidence that some of the hardcore supporters had left when he said bumping would take 2 days and it's been a little over a week. The main problem is that he's giving people best case estimates when he should be giving worst case estimates and then tacking on a week or two to those estimates. No, the problem is the dates he gives are what he calls worst-case scenarios, when they really are impossibly best-case scenarios. "Honest Abe! The schedule is already padded. There's no way we'll miss the dates this time." BS Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: Micon on February 25, 2013, 08:37:41 AM I placed my order in early September and after the way things have gone so far I have resigned myself to maybe receiving my order by late March. Add another week for international mail too. I wouldn't consider getting it in late March to be an option. the COO of BFL has been trolling up my betting thread, and refuses to take a wager that BFL ships 3+ ASICs that meet or beat specs before 3/20/2012 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=135914.360 Title: Re: Newest Update From BFL on Chips Post by: dresdenreader on February 26, 2013, 05:08:04 AM I placed my order in early September and after the way things have gone so far I have resigned myself to maybe receiving my order by late March. Add another week for international mail too. I wouldn't consider getting it in late March to be an option. the COO of BFL has been trolling up my betting thread, and refuses to take a wager that BFL ships 3+ ASICs that meet or beat specs before 3/20/2012 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=135914.360 To be completely honest, the bickering between you two is just annoying. |
