Bitcoin Forum

The Labour Shadow Chancellor has just fielded the idea.
We all know that there isn't nearly enough jobs to go around as it is - and with further automation, robots, the information age etc it is going to become way worse.

The Universal Basic Income is starting to look like a very good idea.



Eleven Reasons to Support Basic Income:-

1) Basic Income will help us rethink how & why we work

2) Basic Income will contribute to better working conditions

3) Basic Income will downsize bureaucracy

4) Basic income will make benefit fraud obsolete

5) Basic income will help reducing inequalities

6) It will provide a more secure and substantial safety net for all people

7) Basic Income will contribute to less working hours and better distribution of jobs

8 ) Basic Income will reward unpaid contributions

9) Basic Income will strengthen our Democracy

10) Basic Income is a fair redistribution of technological advancement

11) Basic Income will end extreme financial poverty

Basic Income UK (http://basicincome.org.uk/reasons-support-basic-income/)


Switzerland have just rejected it at a referendum - I suppose its a pretty radical upheaval to the welfare system, and its early days (reminds me a little of bitcoin, in that sense).

What do you think ?

Basic income will lead to degradation of the majority population. Drinking, drugs, multiple sexual partners, gambling what will be and not the "society of creators" that UBI supporters dream!
Swiss are smart enough to understand this!

So lust should be exclusive for people with money? And whay the hell it had to do with multiple sexual partners? Sounds like you some religion fanatic.
Ps: https://steemit.com/basicincome/@dantheman/basic-income-must-be-global-or-it-will-fail

I am not a religious man. But I know many people for whom changing sexual partners is like drugs. They spend a lot of time on these activities instead of doing something useful.

Absolutely absurd! After 50 years this country will be entirely filled with pensioners because you just have offered strongest birth rate decreasing method ever possible to create.
It must be opposite - pay for children under 25, pay nothing and tax heavily childless adults.

Free money for doing fuck all? I love the sound of that. Count me in and I promise not be any more of a lazy degenerate than I am already.

So you mean that drugs don´t let you have children but it makes you live longer?
With such inflation and all the money pissed in wars and bad things i see no reason for not doing this. Besides why such eagerness to become more and more? Shouldn´t we first learn to become autosustainable?

Drug addiction most likely won't let people pursuing science and creativity (most UBI proponents dream that with free money people will do it).
I don't mean some medical brain-enhancement drugs, but heroin and methamphetamine certainly lead to degradation of the person.

40K we need in this day and age we turn everyone to middle class there is no poor no more..
Remember 40k wont buy you a house with a swimming pool..I KNOW IT WOULD WORK..
People can still go and earn more so they can try and end up with a 6 bed house with a swimming pool..
40k your not rich at all so people still will want to be rich and who can you complain to you got 40k and blew it your fault..Masses will feel no sorrow for you..But you get 40k next year and every year till your dead..No need for loads of building for social security plus the workers who tell you your not getting your job seekers today will be gone no need for them more money saved..

IF WE THINK IT CAN BE DONE..Everyone is now the middle class the middle class spend the most..
Money will be flowing around..BUT and it's a big BUT..We need to keep the population from exploding
And one way is to have breeding cycles and if you don't keep to it your child when reaches an adult wont get the money..
If no population check.. If everyone can have 40k the population will explode not good for the planet
So there must be a breeding law to get the 40k.. like you can only have 2 to 3 children who will get the 40k no more..Every 2 years the breeding year comes in and if you have a child in those 2 years your child gets the money when reach 21..For 40k how many will stick to the rules?..
Not to worry if your having trouble having a child we would take that into account..You would have medical proof..I.E some one who been trying for 10 years and is trying so hard to have a child
no breeding cycle rule for these people..

Ouch it's floored just thought what if contraceptive pill don't work some time they don't and poor child wont get nowt..

only give 2 children the 40k keeps the population down..

Surely it's been proven time and time again that the more prosperous you become the less kids you have. I don't think an explosion of the current population would be a problem, however every single human being outside countries with UBI is going to do anything possible to pile in.

I'm in the "work hard, get an equal or better pay"  camp, not saying getting a universal basic pay is bad, but how exactly do you define a universal basic payroll when around the globe there are manual jobs in one country that actually pays alot more than a similar job on the other side on the globe. In addition to that market spending, inflation, price of basic necessities, the basic amount of pay needed to survive in any country is grossly wide. Even given the same conditions in a same country, a family might be able to survive on let's say 500 usd, another would probably did with that same amount, uses of the money is different too

Rule is your parents have had to been born in the country you live and you have had to been living in your country for 21 years..Done your schooling in the country you live..
simple then you are a true citizen of a country..
In my eyes your not a true citizen of a country unless your parents been born there and you stayed there..
Worked on the channel islands Jersey.. For the none natives you have got to have been working there
for 25 years before your classed as a citizen to claim benefits..

What amount of people are doing a job with a meaning right now?
I mean jobs that wont be replaced by machines - just think about it.

90% of people are probaly living of the work of the 10% - in sciences, economics and everything else.
Unconditional basic income will not change that. The main problem is technical advantage.
As automations goes forward a basic income or rather a free fullfillment of basic human needs is inevitable.

The Victorians coined the terms the "deserving poor" and the "undeserving poor" (http://www.herinst.org/BusinessManagedDemocracy/culture/work/deserving.html), to differentiate between those that deserved help in their hour of misfortune and those who brought it upon themselves.

Today, for the most part, we are living in times that only recognises the "undeserving poor" as a reality ie. those that are poor because they are lazy, because they haven't saved for their old age/sickness, they haven't worked at achieving an adequate standard of education etc.
This is an ideological belief, as its used to maintain an exploitative domination.
Anyone would think we lived in a meritocracy  ::)
The deserving poor we sanctimoniously declare to be exclusively found in the 3rd world, Africa and those sorts of places. The places we help to keep poor. The ones that are drowning as we speak trying to get to Europe. They, perhaps, deserve our help - but not too much.

One of the interesting things Muhammad Ali aspired to was a situation whereby blacks could be granted their own land within the US. The more I think about it the more this makes sense - only I believe it should apply to all the disposessed, not just the black community. As Ali put it, if you don't own your own land and resources you are in no position to provide for yourself and so are, by necessity, forced into the humiliation of going back to your overlords with cap in hand.
This is the position of those today claiming unemployment benefits.Meanwhile, in my country, one half of all the land is owned by around 500 people (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scottish-land-owners-accused-being-2046114). Being as the nations population is circa 5 million, that 500 constitute around 0.01% of the total population. A meritocracy, you say ? When the land is owned by the same 21 families it was 200 years ago ?

The truth that is staring us in the face, that dare not speak its own name - that there is nowhere near enough work to go around, there hasn't been for a long time, and that the situation is only going to get worse - is not on the political agenda at present. Its hush hush.

Instead of humiliating and impoversihing people how about we either give them their own land and resources or give them a Universal Basic Income  that would not only give people a decent life (with choices) but also take away the stigma of, well, existing at all ?

The labour chanceller, John Macdonnell also supported Chavez while he was looting Venezuela. The chances that he will come to power and be allowed to do anything are slim to none.

I personally like the idea but feel that its only good for countries where the population is under control. Instead of providing basic income, the government can also consider providing basic necessities, which I believe would satisfy the same goal.

Yeah  - can you imagine the stampede into countries with a basic income?

Even so the inflation is a problem which basic income cannot support unless it raises periodically, with bitcoin this could be avoided or even reduced, less taxes and more support to real innovation.
The basic income should be global, and instead of giving resources to the poor help them develop tech to exploit their own resources.

This seems to be a temporary fix for a pretty big issue coming down the pipes.
I see it as temporary because people will need to find meaning in life and we already have a lot of people that are depressed because of that. You factor in people that are no longer working and the numbers could swell.
I have a neighbor who retired maybe 5 years ago and he always needs to have a project on the go or he goes nuts.
So he powerwashes his damn carport every two weeks,pesters the landscapers,garbage man and any trade that comes through. So those types need work in some form to feel whole.

The one problem I worry about is how this is on the agenda for so many Countries,it makes you pause.
One great way to control the masses is to have them having to fall in line for their pay cheque and that is a troubling thought.

Something needs to be figured out because jobs that usually pulled on the labor side of the workforce are drying up quickly.
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Eleven Reasons to Support Basic Income:-

1) Basic Income will help us rethink how & why we work
-That it will
2) Basic Income will contribute to better working conditions
-Not to sure about that one
3) Basic Income will downsize bureaucracy
-Maybe
4) Basic income will make benefit fraud obsolete
-Not sure how they figure this to be,there will be more minds thinking of exploiting it.
5) Basic income will help reducing inequalities
- They will just rise up in different aspects.
6) It will provide a more secure and substantial safety net for all people
- It will make the world safer for government,the every day person gets a pay cheque but must now answer to the man in a more forward fashion.
7) Basic Income will contribute to less working hours and better distribution of jobs
- The solution may create new bottlenecks as well,not sure how they figure there will be better placement.
8 ) Basic Income will reward unpaid contributions
-OK
9) Basic Income will strengthen our Democracy
- Or weaken it,its a bit of a stretch to think there will be no discord.
10) Basic Income is a fair redistribution of technological advancement
- Till something new comes along I guess.
11) Basic Income will end extreme financial poverty
- Guess this is the main selling point for it. We would still need to address addiction and mental health to make this true.

The people are there in abundance.

The land and resources are there in abundance.

The knowledge of how to make everything we need out of the resources is there.

What is holding us back?

Nothing other than a little government regulation and fear of the regulation. Additionally, there is laziness.

8)

That is a much better proposal.

If the government provides free money, then there will be no value for that money. Most of it will be used to buy weed and alcohol. Inflation will be out of control and people will be discouraged from saving their earnings.

On the other hand, the government can provide the basic necessities for free. This can include education (up to college level), healthcare, electricity (up to a certain limit), and job training.

The actual goal is simply to take all of your money.  Then, as to what is metered out and to who, that's a different matter.  It can be very little, to the select few, and some tokens, to the masses.

Remember, beggars are easier to please.

I tend to agree. And it's not just the development made on automation, robots, etc... It's also the development and breakthroughs made in the field of AI. As computers are built and eventually become in ways smarter than humans, this will breed a new useless class in human society.

Very scifi-like, I know. But as the technology progresses in leaps and bounds, you really cannot deny this possibility.

The Universal Basic Income is a good idea, the implementation really matters. But as we all know, politicians always get it wrong.

Artificial intelligence is just an urban myth. Get over with it. No matter how much technology progresses, machines will not be able to completely replace humans. Look at what happened in the late 80s, when there was wide-spread fears that computers will make everyone jobless. Check the unemployment rate in the late 80s, to that of now.

When I say AI, I don't mean the uber smart where you could strike up a conversation with . I mean smart enough to automate more everyday human jobs and endeavors. Like those self driving cars being developed.

It is the only way. For example: a machine does the work of 1000 men. So 1 man handles the machine and the other 999 do what?

The other 999 will get some other job.

For example, as I had pointed out earlier, the invention of computer and internet has created tens of millions of jobs. There are millions of website owners, who earn decent income by displaying third party advertisements on their sites. And there are even more number of content creators, who lend their services to these website owners. Technology always creates more jobs than it takes away.

Basic income sounds like lazy people asking to work less and get the same pay.

Study hard if you want to make good money.
Or be lazy and lose everything you have.

I live in Denmark where we have a lot of "Free" things..
Healthcare and just about anything tbh..

We pay for it in tax though.. I like the idea.. But I dont want to pay even more so others can sit at and do nothing.
We have way too many from the middle east and other parts of the world that come here for our social benefits already.

As said above..
Dont give the people money.. Give them opportunity to make it themselves.

It's not as simple as you want it to appear to be. Just look at the state of the world today.

If the world was solely inhabited by lazy people, then there would have been no issues. If the citizens of a particular country becomes lazy, then they will be overtaken by more hard working people. For example, look at the state of France now. The unions have demanded ridiculously high benefits and extremely low working hours. And as a result, the unemployment is at all time high.

I live in sweden, and its similar, and tell me whose fault it is that all these cunts have such rights?

The affordability of a basic income proposal relies on many factors such as the costs of any public services it replaces, tax increases required, and less tangible auxiliary effects on government revenue and/or spending (for example a successful basic income scheme may reduce crime, thereby reducing required expenditure on policing and justice.)

A 2012 affordability study done in the Republic of Ireland by Social Justice Ireland found that basic income would be affordable with a 45% income tax rate. This would lead to an improvement in income for the majority of the population.[22]

Paul Mason stated that universal basic income would increase social security costs, but that it would also reduce the high medical costs associated with diseases of poverty, by reducing stress, diseases like high blood pressure, type II diabetes etc. would become less common.[23]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income#Affordability

Why inflation is a problem? Because of debt? You can delete the debt anytime you want and start again.

inflation = too much money chasing too few goods (either that or cost push inflation - but thats not applicable here)

But as stated above, no new wealth (or even money) would be created with a UBI - what exists already would be distributed differently. If this means a 45% tax rate then so be it.

Not so long ago the top rate (in the UK) was 98%.

The world kept on turning.

You cannot simply delete the debt. If you do that, then your currency will become worthless (look at what happened to the Zimbabwean Dollar, and see what is happening with the Venezuelan Bolivar right now). And when your currency become worthless, two things can happen.

a) hyperinflation
b) traders will refuse to accept the currency (you may need to depend upon barter to purchase goods).

Debt is digits. You can delete or create digits.

It's not simple like that.
Someone, some bank or financial institution gave this money to other country, company or individual.
If they can't pay their loan it means bank or financial institution have to accept financial lost.
Many such lost can even cause collapse of the bank or its bankruptcy.
So, debt is never digit on the screen, it's much more.
Because of such situations, banks are very careful with their loans and high risk countries have bigger interest on loans than more stable countries.
Credit rating agencies also play an important role in protecting the banks and financial institutions from unexpected financial losses and provide an assessment of the financial risk for each country and company in the world.

Book money is "digital" money please reread how public and private money creation works.

Atleast something like that bitcoiners should know... ::)

Such sadness