Bitcoin Forum

As I said since years ago, ALL the exchangers have fake volumes and it's resulting price manipulations; ones have a "decent" rate, others have a huge rate of fake transactions. That means FRAUD !

I would say that there are 5-6 big exchangers who are giving the trend and they form a cartel: Bitfinex, Okcoin, Huobi, Bitstamp, BTC-e, Kraken then Coinbase and others.

Many BTC fanatics are saying that BTC is free that it's a free market without monopoly. I say otherwise. All the BTC trades is manipulated by these exchangers and "you" accept it even you lose alot :)

Of couse, many of you forgot MTgox's bot (called Willy) who raised the price by doing fake transactions :)

Now, someone from inside is admitting this thing:

https://forum.bitcoin.com/bitcoin-discussion/reminder-chinese-bitcoin-spot-exchanges-okcoin-and-huobi-are-faking-a-majority-of-their-trading-volume-t6701.html

Why shouldn't they? Volume means nothing, who decided a trade happened one time, 3 times, 5 times?

Who got robbed by a meaningless number that never meant anything?

Even the most trusted exchanges are suspected for manipulating volumes. However, high volume ≠ price manipulation. Orderbooks might be thinner than what some exchanges try to make them seem like but manipulating the price is significantly harder than doing it with the volume, which after all is just a statistic other than anything else. Even Chinese exchanges that have outlandish volumes are rarely accused of price manipulation.

The Centralized Bitcoin exchanges seem to coordinate their prices across continental divides. One goes down – they all go down. The question is why the public tolerates their scam. If they were useful or desirable, they’d consider the very people who sustain the Bitcoin network, namely Bitcoin miners. Exchange clients and miners get whatever is happening in the busiest exchange. The exchanges’ arbitrage bots equalize prices between one another. Miners – you’re the backbone of this innovation. Cryptomonkeys – you think you’re trading – but your centralized exchange rides you bare-back.

Bitfinex, Kraken, Coinbase, Bitstamp all charge fees. It is too expensive to manipulate volume on those exchanges as every trade will cost you money.

The only exchanges where the volume may be suspect are the ones that don't charge fees - Huobi and the other Chinese ones. But some of their trade is definitely real.

But mate we aren't tied to using only the Bitcoin exchanges right? If you are not satisfied with the fake price manipulation and the fake trade volume you can always find a private seller where you will get a transparent offer and can haggle about the price yourself. Bitcoin may be a free market but people could play dirty tricks to ensure a bigger profit that's completely normal. If you feel you are being led by the nose by one of these exchanges just leave and find a suitable private seller or buyer problem solved.

I am %100 with you. There is no way bitcoin would rise that much in a few days. There is clearly a scam going on and it will end very bad for the holders. I am a supporter of bitcoin but this volatility is definitely wrong.

This is nonsense - if the bots are run by the exchange then the fees "cost nothing" (as it is coming from their own profits).

You can't trust *any* exchanges volume in Bitcoin (and never have been able to).

People seem to confuse Bitcoin exchanges with things like regulated stock exchanges - a very naive thing to be doing.

If an exchange's transaction volume is sugnificantly higher that the others then that exchange could affect the price in general.Fake volumes are just fake statistics, unless they are real.

This is why https://bitsquare.io is a good project , decentralized bitcoin exchange , and localbitcoin.com is also good.

Other upcoming decentralized exchanges are: http://mercuryex.com  ,  http://www.coincer.org  ,  http://www.supernet.org  ,  https://etherex.org ,
                                                                    https://bcexchange.org

I think we are definitely seeing an exaggerated price increase in such a short period of time. I won't be surprise if there is another "Willy bot" behind this.

However, I do think the current price is reflecting the current value of each coin. Perhaps a slow increase between now an halving is reasonable. If we ever get pass $1000 in the next few weeks, I am sure it is a bubble.

How ? Do you even have a idea how a exchange works or how the prices are hiked ? I don't think so.The prices cannot me manipulated as you have put it,if that was the case,the market would go down in seconds,one cannot control the aspects of the market to an extent where they have the potential to destroy it's functioning.


How are you planning to distribute bitcoins ? Home to Home selling ? I don't think that's a good idea.Very few peer to peer exchanges ,filled with scammers I may add.Not everyone is technically sound and hence their primary source of buying bitcoin are the exchanges.

I believe they pay a good amount of fee,more than bitcoiners who set-up custom fees using Core.They're rightfully supporting the miners exactly by the way they should.You can't expect them to hand out individual trophies to every miner for their work.

That is wrong,you cannot manipulate the prices to an extent where it causes a scarcity of the commodity in the market unless of course the situation is worse.

this happens everywhere, what you gonna do about it!
and manipulation is not only restricted to bitcoin but also it is available in all the markets, the form of it might be different but it always exists.
if you can notice it and make a profit from it then good, and if you can't just stay away from trading!

besides i should add that there is a totally different time than the time of willy bot of mtgox!

Well that's a funny approach, but it might not be that far off. The biggest and most compliant bitcoin company has an orderbook so thin and disproportionate to the volume on their exchange^[1] that manipulation even for them doesn't sound that far off. And yes, I'm talking about Coinbase. Perhaps volume manipulation is an industry standard.

[1] (http://qntra.net/2016/06/mere-265-bitcoin-sell-causes-flashcrash-at-coinbase-chronically-thin-orderbook-to-blame/)

Also, what happened to your videos?

People running bots  on exchanges only to make bigger volumes. Take a look at Yobit exchange and you understand what I mean. Many scam coins around where bots buy there own coins to lure people. It's gigantic market and some people earn big money with it. Who are this persons behind it I think they operate not only on Yobit but also on other exchanges.

I don't think so because all of the bitcoin users is feel the advantages from this way, Make a manipulate with their volume, It's just assume... Not flaming or another. Maybe, I was an impressed hypocrite but this is fact.

I am not really surprised. I knew this was bound to happen sooner or later, but it seems that it actually is happening.
And of course, if there's an opportunity to monopolize, many will seize it, just like those of the big exchangers you mentioned.

I think it's very possible. When you look at the exchanges that are subject to some type of regulation, though I dunno whether it covers stuff like front running, like Gemini, Itbit and I guess Bitstamp they all have some weedy volumes compared to others. Lack of margin stuff could be a factor too.

It depends on where they are based. In the western world, an exchange with that kind of volume and which is charging fees on every trade, is expected to show revenue in line with that and pay tax on the profits generated. There is no benefit in pretending you are making more than you really are because you only attract the attention of the taxman who wants his share. Tax authorities: keeping business from over stating revenue since the dawn of time.

but what their statistics shows that faking volume increases revenue and number of people trading causing them to profit more then what would need to be paid in tax?

And you are very wrong to think that any Bitcoin exchange is being properly run in the way you are stating (show me who is auditing them for a start).

NOTE: It is possible that Gemini is being run this way but I doubt any other western exchange is (they would be the exception rather than the rule).

The tax authorities don't even understand crypto (so they are hardly going to be sending experts in to check the trading records logs which can all be forged anyway).

In many western countries the "tax man" has actually been outsourced to the businesses themselves (it's known as GST or VAT).

No I don't think that they are fake transactions, as in some exchanges i am seeing that the price sometimes reach to a much higher value and on yobit I am selling my bits at much higher that the normal price.

Here you go Slavetard!! Here is my latest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKw_7sh1LSY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKw_7sh1LSY)
Thanks for watching

...and here is an important one on that lying bitch Hillary Clit-on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oE43M1Z8Iew (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oE43M1Z8Iew)

These aren't fake transactions IMO they're bots trying to raise the volume by trading with themselves. What's new anyway, even the mining's controlled by 'btc mining cartels.'

What else did you expect with non-regulated exchanges all over the place? The Chinese has been doing this for years and for that reason many people do not even use their volumes as a indicator of the

average price per Bitcoin. I use the average price listed by these exchanges, Bitfinex | Bitstamp | BTC-E | LocalBitcoins as a guideline. The private sales are a much better indicator, but in many cases

a bit inflated. The regulated exchanges should be a bit more trustworthy... well, more that Mt Gox.  ::)

And which exchanges are actually "regulated"?

(the firms that audit them should be public as well as their audit reports - if not then I wouldn't say they are any more trustworthy than the "unregulated" ones)

It seems to some extent that this thing about exchanges often is just a "racist" thing - if you're non-western then your exchange must be suspect but if you are western then somehow it is not.

Perhaps it is just sour grapes from western exchanges that can't work out how to make a profit without charging trading fees. :D

Gemini, Itbit and now Bitstamp? I assume they gotta do something to satisfy the authorities to get their pieces of paper like banking charters and so on.

Well even if all of those - that is three out of how many?

And I'm still waiting to see public auditing reports (from any Bitcoin exchange).

This is the exact reason why those volumes are manipulated. Those exchanges are an unregulated and luckily reputable parties put them aside.
Just look how coinmarketcap.com put some of those exchanges which have zero fees not in the total volume. It's from from realistic

Also - in regards to "what is taxed" the simple answer is "fiat" (not crypto).

So if any tax department is looking at anything they are only going to look at the fiat bank accounts.

My guess is that any "auditing" that is going on is purely on the "fiat" side and that the actual crypto side is not audited at all.

Any Evidence?

It should be up to those trying to claim that western exchanges are legit to prove that they are (so far I've seen no proof at all).

Proof is a rare thing here.  :D
I would guess that some exchanges are doing what they can to manipulate their trades. It is harder to believe in a conspiracy between lots of exchanges. And impossible to believe in a massive conspiracy between all mines, as stated in the original post.

I am not a supporter of conspiracy theories at all.

The simple test about an exchange is how fast you can buy or sell coins and then how fast you can withdraw your coins or fiat (nothing else much matters IMO).

Perhaps if some independents set up something that just does such tests every day we might have a better guide as to which exchanges are actually the best ones to be using.

Yup. I think we've seen time and time again that customers don't actually care about it, until they suddenly do. It's the margin thing and volume that keeps them coming back to the other ones no matter how many bizarro blips there are let alone total failures. Greed always wins.

As a side note, I think there is a lot of manipulation in most markets. We would probably all cry if we knew the truth about our 401k.

I think the transaction is real and they are using bot i think to control the volume and to attract people to invest their money this is a strategy if most of the altcoin owner they are using bot to boost the price..but result of decreases.

MTGox was registered in Japan and believe me, you have to pay a lot of taxes there. Even so, MtGox used the Willy bot. It's very simple to setup a bot to make FREE transactions(no fee for trades that it's making).
The rest of the users are setup to be charged. :)

All the exchangers are using bots and that's why they can manipulate the price. They talk to each other, they know when the price will go up or down. I am referring to the biggest ones that I mentioned above. It's a fraud and the  BTC China CEO admitted an obvious thing...

Yes, if you are financial licensed it's harder to make tricks but it's possible if you setup free charge for your bots :)

of course, it's "Willy bot" behind this and the exchanger's cartel is in action.

It is obvious that the Chinese exchanges powerful manipulate the market!
After all, how they would obtain gains, if not charge fees? So what?
The universe of Bitcoin is a free market, where players need to learn to live with this kind of thing.

The Chinese are known for dishonest business practices and manipulating the Bitcoin price on the exchanges wouldn't surprise me, but if they are making the price go up artificially isn't this in favor of the customers as well? The exchange operators will get higher fees from the 'real' transactions and the Bitcoin users will get more fiat for converting their Bitcoins. Do you think when Bitcoin gets legalized in China the government will still be lenient towards such fraudulent moves by the exchanges or they will try to rectify the issue and make their trading platforms more transparent? The thing is that even though they are tricking users into believing that their statistics are true, no one is getting scammed in the process because people are actually getting a higher price for their coins. I don't condone what the exchanges are doing, but it's not such a serious felony is it?

how can you know if they give the result of manipulation of the trade? I think wasn't important as long as the price continues to rise and we are careful with the price falls so we not get suffered great losses.

Solution:

https://bitsquare.io/
http://mercuryex.com/
http://www.coincer.org/
http://www.supernet.org/
https://etherex.org/
https://bcexchange.org/

this is only good as long as the price is rising, it is obvious that everybody is happy about a rise.
but what if the price reaches a maximum because of a bubble, and the this bubble burst and price falls down? that would be bad, the same as the time up until now (i am talking about the fall from 1100 to 200) although that was slow one, but those days was pretty bad.

Yes exactly, i keep a thread about them here, read here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1420155.0

they should build a decentralized exchange directly into core client, no need a third party software

that would be majestic to have

That wont happen because it would add too much weight to bitcoin nodes.

The bitcoin daemon has only 1 purpose to run the network, and most nodes do only this.

If you want to trade, you will have to run a different server, like bitsquare, which is already standalone.

The same way if you want to do commerce you run openbazaar.

You cant integrate non essential parts into the core, because it would burden the nodes.

as long the centralized exchangers will be used, the BTC price will be manipulated in their favor(serving different interests).  on a regulated market, this is called fraud.

with a fraud? :)