Bitcoin Forum

I have held my tongue for too long on this matter, and cannot stand idly by and watch as Ethereum continues to suck money into its scheme.  The failures of Ethereum are almost too numerous to mention but the recent proposal to hardfork to re-write history completes the trilogy.  
  
The dream of cryptocurrency, blockchains, and Bitcoin was a decentralized mathematical object that obeyed the rules of game theory and computer science.  No central authority was necessary because central authorities by definition cannot be trusted with absolute power.  There is not a man or woman alive immune from the corrupting influence of absolute wealth and power, and the wise people behind the best crypto projects in existence know and understand this.  
  
Ethereum was DOA, but its failure is now complete.  The three pillars of Ethereum's failure are thus:  
  
1. ICO token:  
  
No ICO token can become a true standard for world value because it immediately creates a community of insiders and outsiders.  It generates an immediate legal and regulatory nightmare.  And it reduces something that should be a world changing vision into profit-making venture.  There can be no purity of intent with an ICO because the intent was clear from the very beginning - get paid.  
  
2. Arbitrary PoW/PoS Switch controlled by devs:  
  
The faults of proof of stake are numerous, but we will ignore them in this context.  A project that launches with a predefined PoW time period before switching to PoS might still inherit severe problems down the road if it grows large enough, but at least the accusations against it are limited to the technical and mathematical.  However with Ethereum there are no predefined periods - the devs reserve the right to radically alter the consensus mechanism at any time.  This is akin to agreeing to play a board game where the owner of the game can just change the rules whenever it suits them: "Oh, ummm.... so I landed on Boardwalk, and I'm making a new rule that you can buy all the colors of a property at once if you want and if they are unowned."  The fact that the community has accepted this until now is absurd on its own - and now we finally have the third pillar that completes the madness (which also happens to be a crime of centralization).  
  
3. Arbitrary hardforks to protect profits:  
  
The third is the last and worst.  A hardfork to avert an obvious game breaking bug is understandable, as happened with Bitcoin's generation bug back in the early days.  But when a contract behaves as intended, and the owners get pwned, you don't get to just roll things back because you didn't like the outcome of the rules you created.  Seriously, this is the crypto equivalent of the bail outs, which was the entire point of decentralizing the money supply to begin with.  At this point the Ethereum scheme has wrapped around and began to eat its own tail.  
  

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The time has come to recognize the Ethereum failure for what it is - a billion dollar spreadsheet.  Vitalik, insider devs, if you are reading this you have my respect: you are more talented coders than I, and I suspect you got some very big players to buy your spreadsheet tokens.  Good, crypto was always about a transfer of wealth from the rich to the poor.  So end it then, and make your victory complete.  Dump on the bankers and whales who were foolish enough to agree to a game where you can change the rules at any time.  Take your profits and talent and come work and develop for a blockchain that actually has hard rules and firm cryptography - its never to early to start envisioning the second layers of proof-of-work blockchains where DAPPS may actually have a future.  
  
Reading this you might think I have an agenda, or an active short.  I don't.  I hold no position in Ethereum or DAO nor do I intend to establish one.  But I know truth and strength when I see it, and we both know what Ethereum has become - the very demon it set out to conquer.  Take that shiny diamond, turn it around on yourself, and do what you know must be done.  
  
https://i.imgur.com/mSmO0yO.png

Every coin creates insiders and outsiders the minute it is born. Every coin will also tend to skewed distribution as some people have more money/power/material to invest, or are at the right place at the right time. If I can buy more CPUs/GPUs/ASICs than you, or my elecricity is cheaper, I will have more coins. If I am more interested in the technology than person B, I will buy more coins/educate myself better at the start en when the technology becomes popular I will have a headstart. Also nothing wrong with wanting to be an early adopter for financial gains, you take more risk to hopefully get a bigger reward.
So the ICO point is kind of moot imo.

At least then those computers will do work to generate tokens, showing that effort was expended to create them.  You can then choose to dump them on the open free market or keep them.  But you had to do the same work everyone else did. 
 
An ICO opens up all kinds of potential exploits for devs, like buying their own tokens to control the supply and inflate market cap.... on top of not allowing a project to grow organically.  As I have always said, if your project is truly world changing then you won't need an ICO - just being around as an early adopter will be enough to make your time investment worthwhile.  But if you plan to cash out at a later point, an ICO makes far more sense.

IF their actions only affected Ethereum, I wouldn't mind.. Let them play.

But I think this will change people's fundamental perception of all crypto.

And not in a good way..  :'(

A small, mini-chain with a handful of users, sure.. pork-fork away.

But if the 2nd largest 'decentralised' chain can pull this shit off, it's on the table now for any and all coins to come.

..

And the truth is, it is now, and always was. We just didn't realise how close to the edge we were.

( I am a little shocked at how quickly/easily the ETH miners are accepting this though.. That I did not expect. Too much faith in Humanity. Fool that I am.. )

Has a new wallet with the forking code been released, and is there a page showing the total number of ETH miners using the new wallet?

The soft fork code is already in the latest GETH..

Keep in mind that this is the same attacker who attacked Mt.Gox. He doesn't waste his time trying to convince you. He just does it.

His attack is ongoing and (assuming he succeeds) you won't realize he has won until it is too late for you to sell ETH.


You'd probably want to read the entire post quoted above, by clicking it to go to the thread whence it came.

Btw, your beloved Monero is next (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1520691.msg15307605#msg15307605).

  "if your project is truly world changing then you won't need an ICO - just being around as an early adopter will be enough to make your time investment worthwhile" Truer words never spoken on this site +1

A magical flying horse from a different fandom?
With deep, well-reasoned musings re. the nature of cryptoocurrencies and expert financial advice?!
                                                                                                           https://s32.postimg.org/tno4w7qv9/sweetty.gif
>No ICO token can become a true standard for world value
Why?
As opposed to what?
WTF does that even mean? What is the current "standard for world value"?

I understand that I shouldn't judge a magical talking horse by how much sense it makes, the mere fact that it talks and posts on the web is amazing, but still...

My instinct is to agree that Ethereum has disappointed especially in its handling of the DAO crisis and the resultant forking discussion. That said, i am gonna reserve judgment for a little longer and see what happens

Wow. That MP dude is a psychopath.

Ethereum is a COMPLETE SCAM.

People who dont realise this are either:

1. SCAMMERS
2. FUCKING IDIOTS

No other possibility! Even if it made you some money, its all a BIG FAT SCAM and wont succeed. It will come down hard.

I just see etherium devs, bran Armstrong, Andreas, exchanges, ledger and a whole host of others all slithering around together greased from head to toe not in ether but ethers big pot of viscous dev dollars - not a pretty sight.

Yes CryptoCurrency whispers but money still talks.

Most around here don't know their arse from their elbow and would trade decentralised currency for sainsburys shopping trolly tokens If it might make 'em a few quid.

Dead shit

Buy WBB and hold/enjoy as dev releases massive real-world items to the masses :)

@OP
Well said, i have been saying pretty much the same thing.. we agree 100% i think.

The rational can't be explained to the iratational.
Look at 2ndcunt ..he resorted pretty fast to criticizing your name and grammar.
He got what you meant to say but chose instead to home in the potential grammar error.
This won't cut the mustard sweety LOL

What was the last ETH rumor(s) i heard ?

- "Big Banks" were going to buy SHITLOADS of Ethereum and start using it !

- The Ukraine govt. was going to start using it for elections.

hmmmm ?

I suppose they may be re-thinking buying the for-profit-scheme-token
..to use as an alternative means (anything not profit)
Ethereum is used 90% for nothing but trading on centralized exchanges for profit.
It was never intended to be a currency by design to replace Bitcoin (which is the point to all this)
It was never released fairly.
It was manipulated since day 1 by the rich & powerful to drain the BTC from the poor.
It succeeded in doing this and V. Butterin even admitted to dumping a fortune on you all.

It really is a scam and your a deceitful Shilltard if you can't see it.

It is dead because this is the truth and it will only become more apparent in time.
And where did Butterin get all those coins to dump too ?

And who is the rich that is bank rolling this "Scheme Coin" since launch in 2014 ?

There is nothing decentralized about any of this ETH / DAO crap ..even if that is what the 'D' stands for  ::)

It's a Pyramid-Scheme scam launched by fraudsters and scheming profiteers.
It was DOA on launch and it doesn't matter to the dev's because they know they can push it still anyway.
If Mt. GOX opened it's doors and added Paycoin you all would dive on it
..*if* you thought it would make you money.

So.. all the ETH team has to do is keep organizing spam / hype campaigns then Pump it !
..then dump on it again.
And it each time the rich get richer and the poor get poorer and you all enable them to do it.
..so you too can profit from the "scheme".

Lessons learned ? 0 nada zilch a big fat ZERO

BTC is in free fall. Enjoy you tard. Whodathunk a crypto attack turns crypto investors against invest in... crypto?!?

Sad diversion Minecache.. ETHTard Fail Retort #323

"MY" Bitcoin ?

I don't care about Bitcoin. (i have NONE i gave them away as a donation)
I also have criticized BTC the last 3 years combined more than any other Altcoin including Ethereum.

Minecache ..zip it up, your desperation is showing  :o

I also find it funny that i already pointed out in the past you and your other handful of shill noob accounts
all act the same way.. same formulaic response every time.
Attempted personal attacks / Trolling etc
Am i impressed ?
..yes !
You have once again demonstrated masterful use of the Forum Quote button  :D

PS:
The fact Bitcoin is good or bad has no bearing on ETH being a scam.
Bitcoin being bad does not make Ethereum good smart guy ROFL
Even if Bitcoin is bad ? Ethereum is a 1,000x worse sweet-heart.

Need any more pwnage investard hit me up i got more if you need it.

FTFY. Care to tell me why your shitcoin of choice is different?

There are A FEW good coins but yes for the most part, most crypto is bullshit (mainly in alts biz).

ETH is a joke.

What blind ? stupid or what ?

Care to explain to us all how you managed to attempt to play dumb
..while skipping over the explanation provided 100x before & after that comment you quoted ?

Play smart ?

Work harder at it.. you FAIL !

https://s32.postimg.org/c6p1aamd1/38338377452bc996bc2fbdc931b2e212.jpg

YOU. WTF is wrong with you? If you got nothing, say "I got nothing" & take your sperging elsewhere.
If you want to explain to me why your shitcoin is unlike all other shitcoins & is a special snowflake, do it. But be concise plz, no hand-waving.
K, Tiger?

It stops being a joke if you made a boatload of money on it, as Vitalik did, and as all of the "early adopters" [lol, 6 months back would do] did.
As in x10 the wagered scratch, 1,000% :o profit.

Unprovable that this doesn't happen in any cryptocurrency, ico or not.
What is reasonably provable/common sense is that money goes hand in hand with "corruption", so any coin that generates interest will attract this kind of behaviour and there is no magic you can invoke to make that go away. Just become a better player or lose the game.

This is why Satoshi Nakamoto's decision to disappear forever was an excellent move. It shows that he knows his game theory and he knew that his would not work with a leader that is visible and prone to ad hominem and all sort of attacks, plus the figure of a clear "creator" as too much weight. This is why Vitalik Buterin is Ethereum's biggest demise. He is just some young guy at the end of the day and he has already took some project-breaking decisions.

The Federal Reserve of Vitalik Buterin

Of course you don't care about BTC. You're just tarding here for charity.

More like he foresaw how centralised his dream was becoming and how fractured the BTC community were becoming with their pathetic personal attacks.

Forgive me, but has the fork in this instance been confirmed?
I thought it was just one of the options being bandied about.

Neither soft fork nor the hard fork have been confirmed. There is a vote on the soft fork. Soft fork might happen.

No hard fork has been performed and the community is not voting for it. It was simply one of throat ions given to the community to consider. Obviously the centralised BTC shills take such a community and option as a given. But the ETH community is different to them. So you can bin this and other such FUD threads. Because they are nothing more than sour grapes.

Mark my words: there is more Ethereum pain to come. 
 
With this hack alone, the DAO explorer can inflict perpetual damage to Ethereum and structures built on top of it.  And only a fool would assume this is the only exploit he knows.

The next time Ethereum is stolen due to code exploits will yet another hard fork be rolled out?

He can't do it perpetually because a fix is being implemented. More FUD from the centralised BTC Spoetniktard shills.

how many months weeks till the next eth hack ::)

Ya Minecache put your money where your mouth is.. oh wait you did.

He just said it can't happen again.. i will remind him of that later
..and his Banks are buying shit loads of ETH comment too.

What a mouthy fraud eth-clown LOL

These scrawny mETH heads sure do get squaky and run around chirping their little beaks off.

Reality.. ETH was hacked Shilltards.

..shit is DEAD .

That is what happens after hacks in Crypto *as usual*

@Minecache what charity ?
I have refused money lots.. unlike you i am not a greed peddler pushing scam coins for profit.
Actually i donated the last of my Bitcoin to an Android DEV who makes FREE APP's..
Is that me taking charity ?
NOPE.
That is me handing charity out..

Say something honest for once around here scammer and maybe your ETH Propaganda will be believed.
..just some friendly advice for you (no payment is needed) it's free just for you mETH head.  :D

Well this Ether / DAO fork thread can be used for my FinCEN post. First the original guidance from 2013

https://fincen.gov/statutes_regs/guidance/html/FIN-2013-G001.html (https://fincen.gov/statutes_regs/guidance/html/FIN-2013-G001.html)

The question is does a fork whose sole purpose is to reverse transactions and / or to freeze funds make Ethereum a Centralized Virtual Currency with the related MSB registration requirements? Of course it may already be a Centralized Virtual Currency because of its launch.

How FinCEN chooses to deal or not deal with Ethereum will be very interesting to watch.

YES agreed and let us not forget about them and their past involvement with coins.
Didn't they "Fine" the Ripple guys or something before ?
Sorry i can't remember it was a couple years back i think..

Agencies like Fincen & the SEC do exist guys.. they are real (as are other 3 letter agencies)

Exactly as Bitcoin is.


Who cares as long as it overtakes BTC by 30% in 24 hours?


True, and we would make shitloads of money, while you would cry like baby on forums.


Much preferable to BTC team doing nothing and watching Bitcoin die painful death by fees that already reach $1 per transaction.

IANAL
Here is the info on the US Government - Ripple case.

1) FinCEN press release
https://www.fincen.gov/news_room/nr/html/20150505.html (https://www.fincen.gov/news_room/nr/html/20150505.html)
2) Settlement Agreement which includes the agreed to Statement of Facts and Violations
https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opa/press-releases/attachments/2015/05/05/settlement_agreement.pdf (https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opa/press-releases/attachments/2015/05/05/settlement_agreement.pdf)
3) Assessment of Civil Money Penalty
https://www.fincen.gov/news_room/nr/pdf/Ripple_Assessment.pdf (https://www.fincen.gov/news_room/nr/pdf/Ripple_Assessment.pdf)

This all makes for interesting reading especially when read in conjunction with the Guidance I quoted above.

My take is that any crypto currency that has a pre-mine and / or ICO/IPO and / or diverts a portion of the newly emitted coins for development etc. is seriously at risk of having to register as an MSB and having to face civil and / or criminal penalties if they fail to do so.

Edit: The Ethereum hard/soft forks for the purpose of reversing transactions and / or freezing funds simply adds fuel to the fire here.

@ArticMine, Well done !
I applaud your thorough insightful & thought provoking commentary here.
Who would have thought we would be TALKING about Alternate Currencies here ?  :D
..nice change of pace to the crying FUD routine around here.
I will have to check that out a bit later more closely.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4pdx6k/comparison_between_bitcoin_and_ethereums/d4k6n7d