Bitcoin Forum

Recently a player at Betcoin appeared to hit a jackpot worth over 500BTC and did not get paid.  The Scam Accusation Thread can be found HERE (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1517648.0)

Since starting the thread,  information about Betsoft Gaming has been brought to the public's attention that should be taken very seriously.  It seems very possible that many of the biggest progressive Jackpots (worth thousands of Bitcoin) are unwinnable despite 1-2% of each bet increasing its respective fund.

When a Betcoin.ag user met all qualifications for the jackpot, he was given multiple excuses for not being paid that contradicted the paytable.  Without notice or explanation, Betsoft changed the rules days later.

The owner of casinolistings.com has been tracking Betsoft progressives on Bodog.com, found that smaller jackpots (denomination independent) for a few hundred USD were hitting regularly while other denominations were never hit but continue to grow.  

Many smaller casinos (like Betcoin.ag) have progressive Jackpots advertised worth over 5,000 BTC in total, and have ignored requests to prove these funds are in tact.
 
Betsoft surrendered it's Class 1 license from the reputable Alderny jurisdiction in summer 2014 after being investigated.

Several major affiliate sites have issued warnings to their players.  I think we should be questioning any site that chooses to continue to offer these games.  In this un/barely-regulated environment, if players don't demand to be treated fairly, they shouldn't expect to be treated fairly.  Unregulated doesn't mean we have to accept unethical.

https://www.casinolistings.com/news/2016/06/warning-avoid-all-betsoft-slots-and-casino-games  <---This is the site that has collected jackpot data.

http://www.latestcasinobonuses.com/article/warning-betsoft-progressives-problem

http://www.gpwa.org/forum/casinolistings-issues-betsoft-gaming-warning-227986.html
  
http://vegasclick.com/online/betsoft-jackpot-issue
 
http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71002



I encourage all players to contact their favorite Bitcoin Casinos directly and ask them how these issues will affect their relationship with Betsoft gaming and report back.  I will copy any responses and add them to this OP.

I encourage all sites to respond to this thread directly.

---

Betsoft Progressive Slots:
1. Good Girl Bad Girl
2. At the Copa
3. Greedy Goblins
4. Mr. Vegas
5. Slot Angels
6. The Glam Life
7. Tycoons
8. The Treasure Room

---

Bitcoin Casinos with Betsoft Progressive Jackpot Slots
4grinz.com
7bitcasino.com
betchain.com
betchan.com
betcoin.ag
bitcasino.io - Betsoft Jackpot Games Disabled, Investigation Underway
bitcoin penguin
bitstarz
btc casino
cloudbet
fortune jack
limoplay
mbit casino
oshi
sportsbet.io - Betsoft Jackpot Games Disabled, Investigation Underway
vegascasino.io - Betsoft Jackpot Games Disabled, Investigation Underway

So if I get this right, betsoft is the service which provides the gaming platform to those sites right ? How was the user able to win the jackpot if it was unwinnable in the first case ?

Our response is continuing to build our provably fair casino which features games coded and designed from scratch. Larger players in bitcoin gambling need to step up and deliver better experiences rather than run garbage real money software and the players need to demand more. For example, players should demand that betcoin.ag proves ownership of 5000 BTC before trying their jackpot games. It's also pathetic that all these sites advertise "provably fair" when they have one provably fair game and then run that sort of software.

Ultimately it is up to the players to be responsible given how many safe options there are to choose from.

Betsoft provides the software.

Casinos usually offer many different software providers (Endorphina, Amatic, GameArt for example)

It's really just one big affiliate tree, the software provider is at the top.

 SoftwareProviders--->Casino (Sites)--->Affiliate Sites----Player

I posted some cliffs here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1236667.msg15376629#msg15376629


Betsoft Gaming is the polar opposite of a site like PrimeDice.
It literally couldn't not be any less transparent is probably nothing.
But it's also one of, if not the biggest software provider for Bitcoin Casinos. wtf?

I recently made a post criticizing Betsoft on Betcoin.ag forums.  


Here's my comment:


Here's the chat transcript with Betcoin support after it vanished/I reposted it a bunch of times:

Just wanted to point out that Sportsbet.io, Vegascasino.io and Bitcasino.io are all operated by the same company at CoinGaming.io. An opinion from either of those sites should suffice, since they are all owned by the same company. I doubt they would split on something like that. Anyway, I will send mBitCasino an email later and see what they think. I'll post their response once I get it. My guess for cloudbet is that they won't care, since withdraws take forever and they don't seem to care about that either.

Cool, good work.

Got a reply from sportsbet


I thought mBitCasino was also the same CoinGaming, but now they look different I guess.

Bitcasino was running pirated games in the past, Vegascasino.io using pirated Novomatic games and most probably others.
Last time I checked Bitcasino had licence from Montenegro and after Askgamblers blacklisted them they shared licence with mBitCasino and now they are listed along with sportbets.io and owner is mBetSolutions N.V. https://validator.curacao-egaming.com/3c743911-e89d-4a2f-a803-df264761553c
 

I knew they won't pay think about it 1-2% added to the pot for every bet. What is the house edge ? If it is less than 2% They will actually be losing money so this doesn't even add up. I think other casinos should warn us of this kind of thing and shun them out.

I agree with Stunna on this. I don't get why people choose to play on these junky games that have such high house edges. Do people not realize they are playing on what is usually a house edge between 2-5%? All of those casinos are the same.. And I wouldn't even call any of those sites actual casinos. They are nothing more than affiliates for the gaming providers, they don't own their own software, their own licenses, and they don't control their own bankroll (as far as I am aware). All of those sites also have questionable bonus tactics where they refuse to payout when people actually win with the bonuses.

It's the aggressive affiliate model they all use.

"Tell everyone how awesome we are and you get 20-40% of their losses for life"

Google Bitcoin Casino for thousands of shitty affiliate sites that rank casinos on their page by nothing other than which sites are giving them the biggest cut.  (there are a few that do put admirable effort into protecting the player, but they are rare)

House edge is not even available for the majority of games.

Has anyone noticed casinolistings has been down for the past 2 days? Coincidence or is someone trying to prevent people reading the investigation??

I tell you,its all operated by a big scam organisation calling themselves as "BTC Agency".This one dude who runs sportsbet.io goes by the name Anton BTC Agency on skype.His Skype handle : anton.coingaming


Whats common between all of VegasCasino/Sportsbet/bitcasino ? The raffles they arrange which are completely shit.Fake means to advertise and get people to use the site.When questioned about the provable fairness of these lotteries ,this is what they replied,



Been 10 days ,still no provable fair lotteries found.

You should post evidence, I'm not sure exactly what you're saying is going on and can't really find any evidence, but I didn't look too hard tbh.

They did disable all Betsoft Jackpot Games though. So that's good.

(I checked, Vegas, Sportsbet and Bitcasino)

 

Casinos always male crappy excuses. Either you cheated or didn't place the right bet or something else that is trivial and meaningless. We must name and shame this. Seriously if something is not done soon we will have an epidemic like HYIP, think about if it gets that bad, gambling will be destroyed.  >:(

well this is only thing why i love real casino, if i win a fucking jackpot i will be paid no matter what, but i see bitcoin online casinos wont and that is sad, to see people win legal jackpot and not getting paid... very very sad to see :(
regards.
-Katerniko1

A few people asked me that but it was just unfortunate timing I'm afraid (CL is my site). Our former host pulled the rug out from under all their customers without any notice whatsoever. At one stage we were looking at losing 12 months worth of data but thankfully were able to recover it around 3 days later. We're back and running fine now.

Thanks for keeping on this TwitchySeal. Maintain the rage.

Folks...

Solid lesson here:  Provably Fair, or don't play at all.

Twitchy...  There must be some seriously ill-informed affiliates out there, we are giving out 0.3% of all HANDLE, not losses... Imagine the payback there!
Source: https://bitcoinrush.io/affiliates

Two things that have always made me run away from casinos is giant jackpots (which almost certainly don't exist, and if they do, not get paid out) and shady "bonuses" or "free X"  (e.g deposit bonus) which are just traps that you're better off not claiming

lol, seriously? You know what's worse than not showing the house edge? Misrepresenting it. Last year (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228243.msg12849774#msg12849774) you seemed to imply you were going to change the misleading marketing for you 1% rake game from "zero house edge", but nope (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/spa/rmczv2tqcr196vz/8z10i2ph.png).  Hint: If you're skimming 1% on each game, it's not really fair to call it 0 edge....

And secondly, based on my visceral reactions to the site layout -- I suspect an affiliate would make more promoting a site even if it gave a tenth the commission..




Does that also apply to your namesake game, or just other peoples?

Hi Ryan! Having a good night?

Yes, it implies to all 5 of our Provably Fair Games, not just the feature P2P Game we developed.

Not really, I already have a hang-over. How can you tell?  :P


I'm not sure what that means. Your feature game is not provably fair... so are you suggesting people don't play it?  ;D

The feature game is Peer to Peer, you're not playing against the house.

The other games we've built a few year back, ahead of the feature game, are located under the "bitcoin casino" button in the top-nav.

OP- Sorry to hijack the thread, just wanted to chime in and say provably fair is the only way to go.

No worries, these are all important things to discuss.  

I think RHaver is right though, about bitcoin rush.  P2P games shouldn't be exempt just because the house isn't a player.  You could easily play as a player and when its your turn to go first, change your number the instant your opponent selects.  It would only take an occasional "switch", to gain a huge edge while it would take a long time for anyone to prove any accusation against you.

Has there ever been a provably fair p2p game?  I doubt we'll ever see a poker site that is successful and provably fair.  If we do I imagine it would need to be limited to heads up play.

---

I could be wrong, but I believe Betcoin has recently incresed their affiliate structure to be even more aggressive.  This is starting to seem more and more like an amwway-ish (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amway) multi-level marketing scheme with the software providers at the top (with most of the likely owned by the same people) and less like a "casino"
https://i.gyazo.com/a85d9e4f62063270f5d8ed3173363882.png

Also worth mentioning this casino affiliate model does not translate to poker.  Serious players are forced to "affiliate shop" to find the affiliate that pays highest percentage back to them, which means multi accounts and most deals now result in player funds now exposed to a third party in addition to the casino before returning to the player.  Perfect recipe for corruption.  Speaking of which, I recommend checking out the last few pages of Betcoins sig campaign thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1236667.msg15443347#msg15443347

Bodog/Bovada/Slots.lv dropped jackpot slots kast week.

Just got an email that looks like they have cut all ties:

    Hey xxxxxx,

Please note that we are performing a game library update today.    
    We'd like to apologize for any inconvenience this may cause as we recognize that a number of these games featured progressive jackpots that were very popular with our players. We are exploring options now to replace those jackpot games, please stay tuned for more details later this week.   
    Moving forward, the following games will no longer be available:   
    •   2 Million BC
•   A Night in Paris
•   After Night Falls
•   Arrival
•   At The Movies
•   Aztec Treasures
•   Back in Time
•   Barbary Coast
•   Black Gold
•   Boomanji
•   Common Draw Roulette
•   Dr Jekyll & Mr Hyde
•   Enchanted
•   Event Horizon
•   Fruit Zen
•   Genie's Fortune
•   Gladiator
•   Gold Diggers
•   Gypsy Rose
•   Heist
•   House of Fun
•   It Came From Venus
•   Lost
•   Lucky 7
•   Mad Scientist
•   Madder Scientist
•   Mamma Mia
•   More Gold Diggin'
•   Ned and his Friends
•   Once Upon A Time
•   Paco and the Popping Peppers
•   Pinocchio
•   Puppy Love Plus
•   RockStar
•   Rook's Revenge
•   Royal Reels
•   Safari Sam
•   Seventh Heaven
•   Skratcherz
•   SlotFather
•   SugarPop
•   Sushi Bar
•   The Curious Machine
•   The Exterminator
•   The True Sheriff
•   True Illusions
•   Under the Bed
•   Under the Sea
•   Viking Age
•   Virtual RaceBook
•   Weekend in Vegas
•   Who Spun it?   
    Sincerely,


Bovada Customer Service
service@bovada.lv
1-888-263-0000   

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