Bitcoin Forum

Hello guys,

I'm looking for an optimale way to store some BTCs for long term.

Being digital nomad, I dont have a proper place to store a paper wallet. I'm quite afraid to lose passwords too, and I want to prevent robbery or a hardware failure (lose of my computer, smartphone, usb key, ...)
I was thinking of a multisig wallet to avoid robbery or to lose access to them in case I'm forgetting a password.

What's my best option?

Thanks

What you're demanding is a very difficult problem to solve. The best way to make robbery obsolete is to encrypt the wallet (and device - optional) with a long passphrase (which you don't want to use as you're afraid) and the best way to prevent hardware failure is to have multiple backups (e.g. multiple USB keys).

I don't think there's a singular best option. A simple example would be: [1]Open up a safe-deposit box (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Cold_storage) (or make a hidden/'safe' compartment somewhere in your house) and store some USB sticks (or HDDs, whichever you prefer/have) containing encrypted wallets.

Multisig 2 out of 3: Wouldn't you have to place 'trust' in additional people (2 in this case)?

---

---

[1] - This contains some basic, yet useful information about cold storage. Make sure to read it.

What is the lifetime of a USB flash drive (if you don't use it) ? I know that some SD cards wipe themselves after a while, it would be really a shame if you lose your wallet because of this...

I am storing my cold wallets in USB sticks since the very beginning of 2013 and so far it has worked very well for me. I store all my wallet files in 5 external HDD's and 12 USB sticks. That way I have always access to my wallet files without having to worry that one USB stick or HDD is going to fail. If you want to add an extra layer of protection, then encrypt all data stored on the storage drives and sticks. Solid to the bone!

You may create armory (https://www.bitcoinarmory.com/) wallet, then make paper fragmented backup. Send fragments to several your friends or family's members. When you need to restore your wallet, collect "n of m" fragments from your friends and voila! You may also store paper backup in your deposit box in bank if you trust to bank and to your government :)

I guess multisig is making the robbery obsolete, I can have one key stollen, but probably not two at the same time... Multiple backups increase the chances of robbery, if not encrypted. And yes, encryption make me scared of myself forgetting how to access to it  :'(


As said before, being digital nomad, I dont have fix house... I could get a safe somewhere I guess, but if I can avoid to pay for that, or ask banks to keep my btcs, better.


Yes I can have 2 trustable people. But... What's about one key on a ledger wallet (with me), one on copay for example, and one in my emails?

For being hacked, the hacker would need to have access and to my copay account and to my mails. If I'm losing my copay password, or my ledger, or access to my mail / mail compromised, I can still move my BTCs to a new wallet.

That way I can keep access to my BTCs from anywhere in the world, and I'm guessing they are safe from a hardware failure or robbery. Am I wrong?

The best thing that makes robbery obsolete is strong encryption. After a certain length has been reached (and difficulty) they would not be able to acquire your funds even if they could use all of the computing power on Earth in an attempt to crack it. With "forgetting how to access it" you mean forgetting your passphrase, or? I can't really think of good advice for 'backing up a passphrase'. Maybe you could split it into two pieces (2x2 backups) and store them somewhere as well.

I doubt that there's a free safebox that is actually 'safe'. I recommend paying for these services.

Wouldn't you still need to memorize multiple passwords to use all of those?

Nothing is technically safe from hardware failure IMO, there are life expectancies and device failure rates that variate depending on device type and product. This is why it is recommended to have a minimum of two backups.

Yes this could make the deal I guess.



Yes I mean forgetting the passphrase / password. If it's a password, I can forget it; if it's a passphrase, I have to store it somewhere... this increase the robbery chances, or the chances to lose it. Splitting it in 2 if a good idea to avoid robbery / losing it.
I dont want to find myself in that position : https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4qtigi/15_btc_reward_for_the_person_who_can_help_find/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4qtigi/15_btc_reward_for_the_person_who_can_help_find/)


Yes, that's why I would like to avoid these services ^^


Yes, but the odds to lose two passwords at the same time are smaller than losing a unique one. Specially I dont think I would forget my email password  ;D

All the bitcoin address you generate in internet may not be ideal for storage of bitcoin for longer term if the amount is so much.
You better download https://github.com/pointbiz/bitaddress.org and store it in any folder in a new computer without any online connection or USB stick attach (better to use just formatted pc/laptop). Than open bitaddress.org.html file in browser and generate bitcoin address, no any internet is needed. Save that or print that paper wallet you get. And only copy that bitcoin address to one plain text and delete that paper wallet file .pdf you get from the script. Now only insert USB disk where you have to copy the plain text file with btc address you created before.

Than use that address to send bitcoin to it, i think this is the good way to store bitcoin for long term and most secure cold storage paper wallet method exist. Correct me if there will be a chance of lossing private key in the above method, i am also also thinking to store for long term with the above method.

That's a great idea but i'm wondering how can i withdraw that stored bitcon if i want ???. Because i also want to store bitcoin for long term soon because now i'm collecting and saving bitcoins as much as i can. I hope i get a reply :). Because i never tried any kind of cold storage so i'm confused  :-X.

Blockchain.info atleast have option to import bitcoin address through private key to your wallet. Check the option in imported addresses page inside blockchain.info wallet, but you shouldn't import private key unless you like to send coin from that address.

That's an interesting suggestion and similar to 'n of m' multisig. Keep in ind that paper can get easily damaged and lost as well. I wouldn't just give them the paper unprotected.

I guess it depends on the persona. I'm definitely not a fan of "long term cold storage" that is not attended. Even the sharpest minds are at risk of forgetting their passwords over a long amount of time if they don't use it at all.

Well, that is true. However, you have to remember 3 passwords which becomes a bit harder unless they are similar (which would defeat the purpose of using multiple passwords in the first place). As said, there's definitely not a singular 'best' method. You'd have to evaluate these suggestions and try finding a solution that fits your persona.

The recommended practice is staying away from trash such as Blockchain.info, not the other way around.

What if friends and family share their parts, would it be possible for them to retrieve your wallet against your will ? The system seems nice, but it may depend too much on the human factor (which is usually the weak point in any security-sensitive system).

You could buy a Trezor and take control of your private keys. Trezor has the ability to encrypt your 24 word seed with a passphrase, so the seed is useless to a thief without the passphrase. Store the 24 word seed in several places and keep the passphrase in your head. If your memory is not that great this would not be a good solution for you though.

Paper wallets are the way to go in my opinion, although the new hardware wallets sound like the ticket as well

A flash drive (from a brand is a good option) but make sure to use 2 in case your old one is damages.
If you got 5 bitcoin, spending 20 dollar on a flash drive is a very small investment.

Good luck to remind a passphrase you setup 5 years earlier.

If you lose your hardware wallet does not mean that you lost your bitcoin, through trezor or ledger you write down the 24-words seed and in case you lose you can recover using electrum or any other wallet which support this technology (except trezor which you should buy another one to recover your bitcoins). An online wallet greenaddress support multi signature and 2FA, take a look at greenaddress.it

Generate a paper wallet.

Make a rtf document with a lot of text. You can use some documentation for this purpose. Remove all the bold from it.
Set in bold here and there the characters that make your wallet's private key.

Put that document (maybe compressed with password - 7zip with sha) onto cloud, but not dropbox. Instead find a cloud that keeps the data encrypted (like tresorit does).

Complicated enough? :)

Honestly its not a good option to choose usb flash drive because it can destroy or damage even you are not using it.. i i have many flash drive here since i dont use some of them till now some of the usb is not working anymore even i didnt use it.. so beware about this move better to look for other way to save your bitcoins.

I have 2 paper wallets but I just keep them at home in
a book as they arnt over 1 btc otherwise I would keep them
in a safe or a safety deposit box.

back up is your solution! if you are afraid of hardware failure you should make backups, paper is the best one. you can even encrypt your wallet file with strong encryption and store it online like on dropbox.

the best way in my opinion is storing on an offline computer or a live Linux and encrypting everything to prevent access from a random person.
or printing a paper and laminating it to keep it for a longer time.


you don't need a strange place to hide your paper wallet. keep it the same place you keep your documents.


you should make multiple backups from your wallet and store it in two or three places so to reduce the failure chance .


also take a look at this project called cryptosteel, it can give you some good ideas at least.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=977486.0

Honestly, I wouldn't trust USB sticks for "long-term" storage since they degrade.
I can only argue on either hardware wallets or paper wallets as long as they are well-kept and properly maintained and in tight security, it's the best choice.

The best way to not forget your password is to write it in piece of paper a notebook or make multiple copies of your password and place it in different places that way you will not e afraid to forget it. Just dont be afraid to lose your bitcoin in your wallet just dont expose them to facebook forums and other sites make it a secret that only you know. When dealing with sites make dummy accounts then later forward it to your main wallet that way it is much safer.

Another, not considered very reliable would be to simply invest in a dicesite and remember your account and password. This way it would be an investment (with returns) and you wouldn't have to bother much with safety issues. (Of course this is not a good solution for very long term storage)

I think the online wallet will be the best place. but if you want to keep safe bitcoin then you could do a backup wallet you have.

Paper wallet is a good option as long as you dont lose the paper itself. Also you may try to Save in a Usb but again you need to be sure that the Usb dont become malfunction as some point of time.

My approach has been to create paper wallets offline on bitaddress.org and keep 90% of my BTC stash in these wallets. I have considered brain wallets before but I am concerned about the risk of them being brute forced by hackers

Sorry if someone else mentioned this already but SSDs and memory sticks are not safe to store bitcoins long term.
You have to power up the SSDs and memory sticks every few months or your data will get corrupted.

Memory sticks and SSDs store data by storing electricity inside millions of little gates, over time they slowly leak power corrupting the data they hold.

So use a Hard disk drive and paper wallets. You can also encrypted your wallet and then hide it inside a image or other file to mask it for safe storage online for free. 

That's why i have bought a trezor. A giid brand usb cost around 40/50 usd.Remember you need 64 GB for the blockchain. IF you spent 79 you've go ta device that has bene proven to be the best paid solution for cold storage.

The best long-term storage could be a private key that's engraved in aluminum or some other non-rapidly-oxidizing metal or engraved into glass. Iron is a bad idea. Gold is possible, but expensive.

online wallet is definitely not safe for long term cold storage because anything which connected to internet could have potential to be hacked,the best thing is just don't connect to internet after the funds been sent to the cold storage and make sure only you holding private key and not saved everywhere

I have also chosen to store them in Paper wallets. Most of the people don't even know the piece of paper is a coin wallet. I have backups, so even if my house gets robbed or something, I will just boot up my system before the robbers realize, and get the coins out. Hardware is not the best way to go imo.

Paper wallets for the win. Although the concept, not an actual wallet printed on paper. I'd use those plastic bracelet charms with the letters on them, and make two bracelets; one for the pub and priv keys. The bracelets won't degrade, and if anyone finds it, they will dismiss it as something unimportant/inexpensive.

Paper wallets but make sure you make a couple of copies of each & laminate them to protect them.

Just get a safety deposit box and store your paper wallets there, if you travel around a lot and you do not want someone to get to it. You place the majority of your coins in this cold storage and the rest,

you could keep on a online wallet, for the mobility... but chose wisely because not all online options have 2FA and very good security option, so you should not store a lot on them. Leave the key to the

safety deposit box, with your relatives or a trust worthy friend. Only you will have access to it in any way...  ::)

I don't really know which among is the "best" among the best, but I can say that one of the safest ones is paper wallet as long as it is kept under your radar 24/7. I mean, you don't necessarily have to be checking on it but just the fact that you know where it is placed at all times is sufficient enough to be considered a good wallet.

Steel wallets are the best IMO. It's like a paper wallet. Create it offline then store it in steel. It's fireproof, it won't fade and best of all if your house does burn down just grab your metal detector and voila, you have your millions in bitcoins to self insure.

you could create a HD account and just memorize the 12 words, but theres always the chance of you forgetting. i recommend getting one of those durable usbs on amazon and store your keys on there, pretty much guranteed to last a lifetime.

Thats actually a really cool idea, how and where do you get these steel wallets. I assume its a sheet of steel with your keys engraved on it?

i doubt that paper wallets are the best decision, in my opinion it would be better to have some kind of a hardware wallet or something like that, that would be most probably the best idea

i used to use paper wallets for a while but i dont do that any more right now, i think it is much safer to have a hardware wallet and it is easier to use it in my opinion

What I have done is printed out a couple of the same wallet and have them in secure "hiding spots" in the house... I mean you could open up a deposit box at a bank, but you would have to put trust in the bank...

In the end you will have to trust that someone will never find it or that you won't lose it... whether that's trusting your self, your hiding place, or another person/device.

Hiding few copies of the same wallet is good strategy, but you better place them in different houses. There is likelihood of fire in a house and destroying data on your computer and any hidden printed wallet backup inside the same house, thats why hidding the backups at 2 diferent physical locations is really adwisable.

If I would ever place anything inside box at a bank, I would encrypt it with strong password first, I believe these boxes are not completly private and there is small possibility of a theft if the bank is robbed.

I think cold storage not fully safe for store some bitcoins for long term,but it realiable and accesible everywhere,and if you use hardware wallet,its better security,but not accesible everywhere,so i suggest to use hardware wallet for long term.

You should checkout cryptosteel.com (http://cryptosteel.com/), they just redid their website and the product looks pretty nice.  They have a few different versions of it.  One can hold a 24 word seed and another one has extra letters/symbols to store private keys.  I've been thinking about getting one eventually, but I can't afford the $50 right now.