Bitcoin Forum

Hard fork does not equal hard fork. It is not necessary an issue or a buzzword.  There is no "blockchain purity".  

The foundations of any blockchain as a tool are:
- opensource code (constantly evolving for example on github)  
  &  - people's choice to run it (users and miners)

Completely autonomous software is not intended.  
Ultimately the people are in charge all the time anyways.

1.
If the people running  a blockchain prove the ability to decide in consensus to fix a single theft -
(or anything they specifically decide),
 then  it does  not specifically open doors for other regulation in this or other blockchains
2.
If high influence indiviuduals, like developers or mining pool operators are a concern, then it is simply based on the assumption that many people / miners may not be agile or interested enough to decide individually which may or may not apply to any blockchain yet to any direct democracy.
3.
 It appears the main Argument to cause volatility here anymore is pump & dumping  Bitcoin vs Ethereum (possibly since people got used to win through exchanging Bitcoin and Litecoin back and forth and Ethereum is the new number 2.)
-through playing out
the charm of the bitcoin myth/undercover founder and the fractions of bitcoin users who are anarchists (or computer-god worshipers).
VS.  the charm of complete transparency and evolving direct democracy  
Let's not be a herd swinging the prices by either feeling if neither closely related to Ethereum nor Bitcoin


Specifically the Choice is:
"decide against a theft or sabotage attempt."
Or
"decide to legitimize the theft. And also decide against a significant fraction of all ethereum users,
who are repelled by the idea to fund a theft in-directly as well as all those who fell for investing in TheDAO (despite it should have stayed testing longer and collecting real funds in a simplistic smart contract or multisig wallet only)"

In the mean time,
TheDAO should publically offer the thief some "bug bounty" for the key to the funds avoiding a hard fork.
and a bigger bounty and / or no legal persecution for also revealing intention, identity or possible involvement with other crypto-news
If by chance it works, it will gain positivity/faith in society  - if not it is even easier to decide

Mining hashrate increased >15% since june 17.
http://www.coinwarz.com/network-hashrate-charts/ethereum-network-hashrate-chart

"game-over" FUD-ers,  put your money where your mouth is. Make a bet on betmoose or anything.

Hashrate can be up simply because its more profitable to mine Eth vs other coins. This has very little to do with the fact that the ETH dev team are a bunch of kids who don't really have a clue what they're doing

There are similarily profitable alternatives. Given fear of (sustainable) crash in price many would (temporary) switch (besides some who may sell and switch automatically.)  Doesn't sound like you have a point (You reviewed some of those sections of code and concepts that were not written by people who do not yet have grey hair & phd? Do you know Satoshi Nakamoto's age?)

Can i ask what's the minimum amount of coins required to be stolen for a rollback? Will you roll back for anyone or just for people who are friends with the devs?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Too_big_to_fail (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Too_big_to_fail)

rollback is often associated with rolling back everything. Here precisely only one theft is meant to undo

It is ~1/3 of TheDAO's investor's funds = <4.5% of Ethereums market capitalization  <= 3 month worth of Ethereum's inflation  (mining production) , still little compared to the way Etherum price was rising in the last two years despite inflation.

With this the fundamentals of smart contracts go for a toss.  ::)
You are going to have people crying rollback all the time.

I was talking about whole blockchains and the obvious existence and benefit of democratic self-governance of them.

Haha.. the difference is Satoshis code is actually secure. So, if he is young, then he's a young kid who knows what he's doing. In contrast, Eth devs are young kids that have proven to everyone they have no idea what they're doing. See the difference?

You sound like an ETH bagholder  :-X

The attacker is highly intelligent and well funded .

50 million is at stake.

The attack is still on going obviously. Do you not think the attacker is adding miners left and right pretending to be on your side?

Art of war son

Please don't repeat FUD.  Adjectives without reasons are what pump and dump trolls do.  You could actually refer to the code.

What are you saying? An attacker may control a majority of miners quietly without a public campaign?
(Another general concern about any blockchain?)

what else?  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaOGtH7J0WE

Yeah, the code is totally amateur and exploitable. ETH devs are fucking clueless as they've proven time and again. Maybe don't put your trust and life savings in a bunch of noob developers who couldn't code their way out of a wet paper bag. What a joke

Why am i not getting a straight forward answer to this?

Hi Balu2:) as said no blockchain rollback is planed but specifically this theft (=4.5% = 3 month of inflation) may be undone which would otherwise affect 1000s of people.
That is up to the Ethereum community, miners to decide democratically. While it is enough to most people this time, future situations in other blockchains, will be different and the ways communities respond may evolve ;).....

OMG, i wasn't aware it's only 4.5%
That's nothing, man. Uno had 7% stolen coins dumped in 2014 and alomst another 10% this year (could be prevented thanks to bittrex) - these were exchange-hacks. The community did not even discuss forking for that. It's still here and still going strong. We learned our lesson from that not to store too much coins on exchanges. Most coins are now held off-exchange in private wallets as it should be.

I think 4.5% is a really low price to sacrifice integrity. 20% i could understand, but 4.5% is what your average pumper does in volume a day. ETH is sacrificed for the cheap, cheap.

lol, "4.5%" , incredible.

Also the eth will be worth much less by the time they are released. Buying dumps from the hacker or sacrificing integrity shouldn't make much of a difference to the immediate losses - and all the difference to the longterm outlook.


My questions still haven't been answered in a straight forward fashion: what's the minimum for a bailout? And can everyone be bailed out or just the friends of the devs?
How come you expect people to invest money in such a chain?

These actions we've seen in eth is what we are used to see from your average scamcoin dev in networks below 100k$ value. In this high valuation you shouldn't do that - market will punish you.

ETH hardfork = selfdestruction

Should not even have discussed it and just buying out the dumps and moved forward on ~20% haircut but good chances to recover. But now it's probably too late and you could suffer fatal haircut.

I think buying out 4.5% dumps to keep integrity would have been a better deal.

yes, it is another scale.  It was >$70 million on 17 June,  (https://etherscan.io/token/TheDAO) just paid by 11000 investors or so



Can't agree. I sure read it often by now, but what is the point really?  
Read my initial post, start and "3."

As said a blockchain does not sustain itself
Open source software is constant subject of change transparently and trust is build on this.

it requires human consensus.
Consensus == Integrity.    

If the ethereum community thinks the theft harms integrity and wants to undo it to restore integrity, that is it.

human consensus? Normally these networks operate on machine-consensus and not sockpuppet-consensus.

You're not making a lot of sense to me with that line of thought, sorry.

You're replacing rule of code by arbitrary actions.

Sure OS-software does change but that shouldn't be arbitrarily extended to wallet-balances. You understand it's money, do you?

The best you can do for yourself if you really want to go down that slippery road is to specify exact rules how to initiate rollbacks in the future and define a process by which everyone can apply for a rollback - that would be consistent.
Endless hardforking and myriad of rollback-scams would be the consequence though.

The way this is managed that network shouldn't even be public.

It has nothing to do with "holy grail" it has to do with commen sense. You opened a can of worms.

The people are a lower level and cause, reason, foundation.
Machines are not alive.
Machines can't have consensus.
"Machine consensus" is only = consensus of people to run the same blockchain,  (whater (fixed) blockchain data that is, following whatever economic models (PoS, PoW,..)

Machines are convenience tools to ease/automate repetitive tasks.  

Unique issues require unique (human) solutions!    
This choice may stay the only one. But it doesn't make a difference.  
You don't need a replicable process for unique issues more than before or after or in any other blockchain!
(But i will join the thread if you want to think about possible rules of voting about blockchains other than simply "majority" and their possible implementation. I guess one would want this voting to pass by >(100% -x*stolen funds% -y) )


Again can't agree in those fears at all.
It is not arbitrary.  As said the only fear it comes down to, if you meant that at all, is the general fear for any community, or blockchain, that hard choices could split them.  Bitcoin traders had that fear for bitcoinXT  but short dump and pump was already the biggest consequence yet once again. Obviously the voting was not about bitcoin to fail or not. And even if such a split should happen ever to any cryptocurrency currency it will be impressive. Both currencies together may not be worth less than the one was before and there would a striking reason.

- Yet easier choices, that may pass near consensus,
 can only reassure integrity of the community.  

A blockchain is true if the people decide it to be true.  The only true Ethereum blockchain may soon have the theft undone  - or not if people should sympathize with the thief. Undoing it may increase social value/sympathy in Ether and the braveness of the community, if it pioneers in deciding such.
Not doing anything could appear passive but obviously this would also take away all hardfork fears (if they are real)  
both ways the market would calm.

I highly doubt the hardfork gets voted in. The attacker most likely has and is setting up nodes left and right to prevent the hardfork.

Most likely the attackers mining network will pretend to be on the side of the fork to make everyone think there is more support then there is. Then at the last minute, switch to the other code, and keep 50 million.

people can't have consensus, only machines can. Social consensus means: "bully out and flame everyone who disagrees until only people are left that agree"
You aren't ready for true social conseus - all we can talk about is machine-conseus.

"machines can't have consensus"? Then why is bitcoin working?

majority rule = mob rule and communism

you go fork your network on 51%-vote. I'll be waiting here and watching :)

So "truth is what the majority says"? Oh boy, you got it upside down ..

Nobody who's worth their salt is going to invest big bucks in that chain. Developement and community are incompetent, it has been shown 1000 times and this thread is #1001

the softfork got voted in and the hardfork will be voted in for sure

Keep on dreaming of the Big Bucks which are still flowing in ETH and not your altcoin :)

Let's not repeat eachother. Please read the first post in this thread again. 
As said computers are not capable of consensus.  Consensus is human. Computers only help us to carry out the repetitive tasks of documenting / "witnessing". based on the permanent requirement of Human consensus to run the same blockchain software as well.  If you guys generally do not believe in the human basis to run blockchains, then you may also be fearful about open source and society generally.  
When you believe that mighty attackers may come up with majority attacks with enough 1000s of computers anytime,
to even distroy the biggest blockchain networks, then you believe that all current cryptocurrencies are prone to fail through those mighty enemies ( -rather than thiefs).  This is not specifically about this subject and situation (ethereum / thedao). I should not be answering on this, it may just be your way of admitting to be trolls.

Hard fork will show how strong the community and belief in ETH is. Too many big bucks following into ETH for them not to consider a one off hf and put it down to learning experience. What does kill you serves to make you stronger.

lol, his freudian typo

eth bagholders why waste your time? Everyone and their mom shorts your shitcoin. The whole internet knows about how dao fucked up. The fat lady did sing a long time ago. Sorry for your loss.

So is there a current implementation of a hard fork for folks to utilize?

I still mine ethereum since for me its the most profitable coin to mine, i dont hold any though, pretty much as soon as i manage to mine a decent amount of it i just sell it since the price is dropping so much. Its just not worth it to me to hold on to.

https://medium.com/@VitalikButerin/why-cryptoeconomics-and-x-risk-researchers-should-listen-to-each-other-more-a2db72b3e86b#.brotz5mds


https://blog.colony.io/why-a-post-hard-fork-ethereum-will-be-more-valuable-abc35bbf6e98#.4hfa0ptzo

If they are, then they're certainly getting a bargain on Poloniex's Lending market. As I write, the lowest offer was for 0.0095% per day - and that's low. (~3.5% annualized.) I've been snagging much higher loan rates for Factom.

So if there's huge shorter demand, it's being met with huge holder supply.

https://blog.slock.it/proposed-hard-fork-specification-394245b968dd#.5ud10c6up

Thanks for the link.