Bitcoin Forum

Wondering what people make of this?
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-eu-security-financing-idUKKCN0ZL1RB

How can we keep the elites noses out of our financial affairs?

You want to know how? Don't be a part of the EU and let every country do its own thing. They want free movement? Let the country decide by their elected officials and make deals with other countries' elected officials. Want free movement of workers and easy passport movement? Give the countries the ability to decide which countries they want to let that happen with.

The EU is a terrible project that dissolves the culture of each country under its name, and gives power to unelected individuals that listen to a few countries and primarily push off the rest. If countries collapse because they're shit at running themselves, let them collapse and then buy up shit within the country and make money off of it. The trade deals with these countries that sit in a collapse-limbo just makes the recession worse, and it would be more profitable to let the country collapse, fix itself, and then stop propping it up and getting good trade deals.

The EU is not a benefit at all, and only flexes more control over the entirety of Europe for a specific group of people. Free worker movement (and subsequently relative open borders) and less tariffs on trade can easily be implemented by two separate states, the question becomes whether or not they want it. There is no one-size fits all solution, like the Union is trying to push.

I think that with the refugees and UK leaving the UE, they have greater problems to deal with. Probably this will not be a big issue for the time being...

Nothing new on exchanges, at least the ones I've used are already applying KYC/AML directives, and doesn't seem to change much with prepaid cards, VISA lobby is still too strong...

I'm so glad Britain has voted to leave! We're not going to be subject to this idiocy any more.

I dont think all this can be fruitful. And bitcoin cannot be controlled as it is available online. People can find different ways to transfer the coins to their wallets etc.
I think it is very difficult to impose the rules on bitcoins

I was going to write the same.
London and the UK will still continue to be the best hub for innovation if this is what the European Union wants to do.

The UK is going to turn into the EU's worst nightmare - a giant free wheeling innovative centre on their doorstep!

from the article. all i can see is how prepaid debit cards would be affected by the changes of the EU..

that said the other part about making "trusts" and tax havens more transparent is meaningless..
a "trust" is designed that there is no "owner". the trust itself is the owner. and all the supposed "beneficiary" has to do is change things so that they are not a beneficiary and instead they are just a paid advisor/contractor. then they can still grab funds out without being the official "beneficiary".

i say this because it is already being done. many trusts have a second trust as the beneficiary and the humans just treat themselves to "management fee's" or services rendered payments in the middle.

but putting all of that to the side. i do not see the article mentioning what they are going to do in regards to bitcoin directly.. only the FIAT touching establishments..

Agree! Everybody is currently talking about the negative consequences for Britain after voting for leaving the EU. But less asked for the positive consequences. Britain could be a new bastion for new technologies like Bitcoin without the chronic sceptic rest of the EU.

Ive wondered for a while now if pre paid bitcoin debit cards are linked to any personal details? because if not they would be pretty easy to use as a tax dodge on spending your bitcoins , so maybe thats one of the reasons the eu are trying to crack down on them. Maybe time for a referendum if you live in an eu country.

Its only a proposition that some parlamentaries wanted to discuss, EU have lots of law propositions, that never goes to vote. Also if they approve that rule, the  eu exchanges could go to england or other non eu countries.

Lots of bitcoin services are linked to pre-paid cards to allow people to load their cards with bitcoin and spend. Xapo, and Coinbase cards come to mind. This EU development is designed to nix that.

exactly here are some examples
1. cries that the pound is dropping Vs the dollar.
response: if it costs more for us brits to buy stuff from america, then the flip side is that its chaper for america to buy from us.. so walmart would invest more in the UK, startbucks would, even google UK.. things like exports would increase because american can buy more british cheddar cheese and aberdeen angus. etc etc etc

1. cries that the pound is dropping Vs the dollar.
response:if it costs more for us brits to buy stuff from america. we will stop buying. and instead start making it ourselves. thus restarting our manufacturing industry instead of importing

2. we are not part of the EU, we are cut off from trade
response: we are still part of the EEA, we can still trade with europe.. nothing has or will change in that respect. take norway. they are not part of EU but still trade in europe
in short we are not part of asia, but strangely(sarcasm) our leader was able to buy an asian car for his wife.. hmm i wonder why(sarcasm).. because we can still trade no matter what country we deal with. another example is we are not one of america's "states" yet we get budweiser, KFC, and many other american products.. (is your mind now blown!)

Good luck! Still have to understand which are the "positive" consequences.

indirectly. as it would be things like mastercard and visa that would put a "limit" on prepaid cards. and would make people upgrade to debit cards if they want to deposit more than 150euros

all zapo would do is release lots more virtual card numbers with something like 130 euros max. rather than one card number with alot of funds on it

From this article they have lowered the maximum amount from 250 euro to 150 euro but as far as i know most bitcoin debit cards have higher limits for those that want to pay/spend the bitcoins anonymously.
Bitcoin in that article was mentioned only once and I think it is affected indirectly.

Exactly, it's so unimaginably bad for england to have left the EU, it was such a strong country it's sad to see it fall now, I'm glad I moved to Canada.  

That's what you read in the article. But actually, if you read the proposal (http://ec.europa.eu/justice/criminal/document/files/aml-factsheet_en.pdf), there is much more.

The first proposal reads as follows: Add virtual currency exchange platforms as well as custodian wallet providers to the list of obliged entities. These are the “gatekeepers” allowing the public to have access to the various schemes of virtual currencies. By providing a regulatory framework for the functioning of exchanges, competent authorities will be able to better monitor currency transfers. As obliged entities under the 4AMLD, as financial institutions are, virtual currency exchange platforms (and wallet providers) become subject to the obligation to implement preventive measures and report suspicious transactions.

Basically they propose to put exchanges that operates within the EU, within the list of reporting entities in the AML framework. If adopted, that would mean that an exchange that operates within the EU must follow all the Know Your Customer (KYC) regulations in terms of identification of clients. Moreover, they must monitor transactions and generate Suspicious Transaction Reports (STRs) whenever a transaction raises certain red flags. 

As I understand the bitcoin services which linking to pre-paid cards comply with Know Your Customer regulations already, because when you create account there you need all the identification to upload.

So it does not matter if you have one linked pre-paid card or many virtual card numbers with small amounts only, the sum of your activity is what can tigger a red flag and investigation. So better is use Bitcoin directly the way it is intended, otherwise the bureaucrats going to have ultimate power over you.

NO-OH NO...are you telling me, soon our BTC wallets will refuse to accept payments over 250 (whatever scam currency units)? ;D

But not to worry, EU is currently dismantling itself, very good. EUR is helping. Wow, such coincidence today:

Italian banks turn out to have 4x as many sour loans as US banks had in 2008. My, oh my, I do not think terrorism is the issue here.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/bad-debt-piled-in-italian-banks-looms-as-next-crisis-1467671900

THEY ARE WORRIED ABOUT COMPETITION FOR THEIR EUR SCAMCOINS!!!!!!!!  >:( >:( >:(

well thats been the case for decades.. if your a MSB (money service business) you have to be registered anyway. i dont see anything different now then before..

any "bitcoin" exchange that does swaps for euros has always needed to declare themselves as a MSB..

im still looking for any data that pertains to just bitcoin hoarders/holders.. because i cant see anything that has changed in relation to bitcoin itself
their talks about Virtual currency wallet services is more like payza, paypal, skrill, netteller, etc that just hoard euro for people to send to each other rather than exchanges that swap euro for other currencies.

all in all i just see it as the same rules as before, but reinforced. if you touch Euro expect to need to give KYC details if moving a certain amount

Well,i assume they will actually forget about it at the meeting,because like you said-after UK leaving UE,they would not try to get stricter rules to bitcoin.
We have bought some time,but im afraid it might happen one day... i dont like politics if they mess with bitcoin lol

They will fight bitcoin till the end. It's instead of them seeing the benifts of bitcoin and using it some bureaucrats take bribe money from bitcoin's competitors and they fight againstit.
Too ignorant to understand bitcoin can't be stopped.

Well, this was widely expected. I guess the biggest change will be for blockchain.info which will now require to fully identify all the European people who have an online wallet.

Note, that this is only a proposal yet. It needs to pass through the Euro parliament to become law.

it will pass for sure because it's a very important law.

all the EU exchangers without license will be outlaw(anyway they are already)  ;D

The EU law says that all the exchangers must be financial licensed.

The so called AML/KYC that BTC-e and other exchangers are doing is a shit.

Normally, they cannot request such documents from their clients as long they are not financial licensed. Once licensed, they must follow strict rules regarding to the documents they receive(how they stock them, how they process them, who/what employee has access to them and so on).

Now, all the docs you sent to these companies can be sold on the black market without any problem. Nobody is supervising the unlicensed(outlaw) exchangers.

i doubt that it will become a law, this currency shouldnt have any laws on it in my opinion, if this will happen then i guess i will have to move to great britain in order to avoid it

It is a given fact that the elite has a say on bitcoin. First since they hold the majority of bitcoins on their hands and secondly they have the most sophisticated advanced state of the art technology that will shape bitcoin economy. The only resort we need to do is join hand in hand and petition to the government to create an independent body per country to handle bitcoins. That is to say the authority will fall on the government and not in some elites whose greed precedes itself.

The Wall Street Journal is asking me for a subscription which I will not pay but google news came to hepl and I found a free version of the same news

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-07-05/monte-paschi-bonds-drop-as-italy-said-to-plan-capital-injection

Very interesting. The EU will implode from the inside

They are just enforcing fiat rules onto Bitcoin, like the US did with exchanges. So this is nothing new, but you can still send Bitcoin directly between people without having to go through services that has to adhere to all the KYC and AML regulations.

The moment when these Bitcoins enters the fiat system, it becomes a whole other ball game. ^hmmmmm^

wow that is intrusive! kinda defeats the purpose of being anonymous using bitcoin.  In the states they constantly tell
you how you cant gamble and other things so I'm surprised USA hasnt done this also.  

I hope we will see more Bitcoin companies offering over-the-counter purchase of small amounts of Bitcoins without the need to provide any ID. Why should I give all my personal information to an exchange if I want to buy a $50 birthday gift it's not like I am doing something illegal here or participating in terrorist activities sweet Jesus. If there are such strict rules regarding the use of Bitcoin exchanges I may very well stop using Bitcoin for online purchases and go back to the good old debit card. At least I won't be uploading my ID every time I would like to buy or sell Bitcoin this is just ridiculous  ::)

So you mean your only interest in Bitcoin is being anonymous? Sorry to hear that. First of all because it is such a narrow view of what Bitcoin is. Secondly because, unless you are extremely tech-savy and mine your bitcoins yourself, or you just make transaction in person, I see it very difficult already to be completely anonymous, even with the status quo.

It'sn ews like this that shows us the importance of holding. When they start seeing Bitcoin as an enemy is when price will start going up because they know that people will move their money on Bitcoin once the global bail ins start in the next year or two as a lot of countries start needing extra money to pay for stuff, and of course the lower-middle class will pay with their small savings.

2 years seem to be too optimistic, but it will happen eventually.Those bureaucrats who've been opposing anything and even used scare tactics, under the pretense saying we need to remove the 500 euro biljet because it's used by terrorist, will get their portion. At the end of the day it's the people who decide what they use and do, not Brussel politicians.

We've all seen proof of his in Britain.

i thought this was only for interface with cryptocurrencys and fiat. blockchain.info is only bitcoin (crypto), yes?

Another flimsy excuse to further expand the surveillance of the average citizens. The EU is moving fast route to authoritative dictatorship. The AML/KYC-lunacy will not help to prevent even a single terrorist attack, yet it will be very helpful to further increase the tax burden by making capital flight a little harder. The aim is total control of the finances of every citizen, converting once free individuals into enslaved cash cows of the psychopathic elites.

I really hope that the whole Western system will collapse due to excessive indebtedness before these power greedy muppets can realize their plans.

Fortunately, it will not be easy for them to control Bitcoin as long it stays decentralized. Their ability for control is limited to fiat conversion. But who wants their fiat junk money when one can have Bitcoin? It's not even suitable as toilet paper, because the surface is too rough.

ya.ya.yo!

Not just EU but other governments will also have the stricter policies for the bitcoin. The establishment of the bitcoin and rise of bitcoins fears almost every country. Banks are the ones that rule the nation not the politicians. Therefore most the laws passed would be under the pressure of bankers. As we know banks don't profit off the bitcoins and will not support to continue enslaving people.

There is nothing in there about online wallets in europe suddenly requiring ID to access your own btc.  Its basic kyc stuff for exchanges.  How will an online wallet service like blockchain know where you are from?  A 12 year old could get around that.  Why can't we have a rational discussion here without rediculous straw man arguments? And why does everything revert to a brexit argument too?  Ugh.

Actually, now that you mention it, this is just a giant move to try and expand the control of the EU over its member states.

I'll link a nine-page document here (scroll down); http://www.tvp.info/25939587/europejskie-superpanstwo-zobacz-oryginalny-dokument

That link contains a water-mark fucked but legitimate document from German and French agencies that discuss the potential for a European superstate (which was thrust forwards due to the Brexit) by gutting the countries of their military, ability to make their own laws, central banks, and forcing all countries to accept refugees, effectively stripping countries of their own borders. I have a paper copy that I can scan and upload if anyone wants to read a clear full document.

This is showing that the EU is on the course to implode and now that Britain left, Merkle is rushing to destroy whatever she can before everything completely collapses. It is a massive attempt to control everything everyone does in some last-ditch efforts, or they're trying to control what they can and try to establish whatever superstate they can before everyone leaves or Europe gets engulfed in civil war.

Take a good look everyone, these are the last few years of either the European Union, or the Europe we know.

EU should mind its own business. They will soon be no more.

They can'tdo anything about bitcoin even if they wanted to anyway. They only thing they can do is banning bitcoin which nobody will give a flying fck about that. As long as the internet is up, everyone will be able to reach and use bitcoins.

you are either a hipster kid or something is wrong with your logic :)

Bitcoin cannot exist without banks. Yes, you can use Bitcoin to transfer between accounts and done.  The exchangers are based on BANKS and so their clients :)
You believe in an utopia where BTC is used as currency. It's not the case. Wake up! The most of the people are interested of cash and nothing more.

It's a nonsense what you are saying. Any new regulation will affect the exchangers from Europe because their banks account will be closed unless they will have a license (who can afford a financial license? there are HUGE costs; also a license is coming with MANY rules, terms...it's hard to be a financial licensed company) so, you, as BTC user won't be able to get cash or it will be VERY hard. Comprende?  ::)

Also, you will be reported to tax authorities and I am not sure if you will still use BTC once you will pay taxes. In Europe, the revenue/income taxes are starting from 15% to 50%

thats true, it looks like they should have more important stuff to care about, bitcoins will be good as it is, also the most fund for terrorism as far as im aware from different articles come with fiat not with bitcoins so thats bullshit that they just want to fight terrorism

Nobody can prevent people like me to act as a btc/usd bank. That's where you fail with your logic. Bitcoin do not need any banks at all.

When you find a local dealer who buys/sells bitcoin, why would i need any fookin banks? The good thing is, everybody can do this. No licenses needed. Cheer up. :)

Are you from USA? If so, i recommend you to read these :

http://www.coindesk.com/localbitcoins-users-criminal-charges-florida/

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article80277207.html

In short, you will go to jail for a long time if you are acting as you said above :)

no.

edit:

those links are just to scare people. too many things aren't legal in USA yet people can do them anyway.

in Europe will be the same after the new AML laws will be enforced this year . the so called "local bitcoin people" will be prosecuted...

to scare people? :)    these are REAL things ! People are in jail because of unlicensed money transmitter licenses.

There will always be a way out of any legal shit they put.

They banned pirating softwares, movies and anything, did it succeed? No. The only way they can succeed is shutting internet off. You can't stop internet.

good luck EU.

One nation is leaving...and others WILL follow suit.


The beginning of the end of the EU.

It's definitely the beginning of the end; with so many other countries' political parties asking for their own referendums and a lot more right-wing parties gaining power, there are numbers days for the EU. Too many people are fed up with how the system works, and the fourth reich EU has done too many things and forced too many other countries to try and do things. It's all starting to end.

Thanks God that we are not the part of EU, our government is very good with bitcoin and do not restrict the citizens for its use, I think the main point is that in our country the educated people do not like crimes and uneducated people do not know about bitcoin.

The bit-x debit card abided by EU law and allowed you to withdraw up to 250 euros anonymously without any verification. If you gave increasing amounts of KYC details you got increasing withdrawal limits.

https://s31.postimg.org/al1wpyx8b/bit_x_debit_card.png

If the new EU rules are put into EU law the anonymous card's withdrawal limit will go down to 150 euros, but you could buy more than one card and withdraw 150 euros from each card .

Again do not worry too much. The bEURocrats are shooting themselves in the foot. Today Deutsche Bank market cap dropped so much, they will drop out of the Eurostoxx index soon.  :o

The fiat system is sick to the bone and I dare to guess that they will soon have more to worry about, then regulating BTC

Banks are interested in blockchain, and ETH in particular, for a reason...

Check this: Tackling terrorist financing risks linked to virtual currencies: to prevent misuse of virtual currencies for money laundering and terrorist financing purposes, the Commission proposes to bring virtual currency exchange platforms and custodian wallet providers under the scope of the Anti-Money Laundering Directive. These entities will have to apply customer due diligence controls when exchanging virtual for real currencies, ending the anonymity associated with such exchanges;

But frankly, it's no big deal. You can still have your own wallet on your own computer, and exchange BTC as you wish with localbitcoins. You just need to understand that doing things anonymously will be a bit more expensive.

How do you know they are really interested about ethereum? I would like to see some kind of source,it is and intresting info.
But you are right,fiat system is corrupted,sick:they only care for their profit,bitcoin is such a great way for anyone to make money every day!

EU is good for nothing. After Britain's exit, it is in danger. With negative GDP to negative bank rates prove that EU can't make better decisions for their own economy. Now they are trying to steal money from normal people.

It seems like that EU wants its citizens live a miserable life and controlled by their government. How funny it is. Britain has taken right decision.

Just found out Coinbase banned Germany & Luxembourg (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1541987.0). I guess this is more than just talk.

I quote: Following attacks in Paris last November by Islamic State militants the EU executive said it would step up measures to cut off terrorists' access to funds.
EU lets millions of potential terrorist enter unchecked. And use it to control the native population.

Yes to scare people.  This is not common?  It's anacdotal evidence,  how many more thousands of trades happen without incident?  If you are trading large 4 figure sums or 5 figure sums then yes,  it's a danger you could get into trouble.  Solution: make more frequent smaller volume trades.

Localbitcoins doesn't work everywhere.


1. How is posting a link to people doing illegal shit & getting owned scaremongering?
2. What you are suggesting is called smurfing, which is a crime. Don't advise people to commit crimes on clearnet. It's not smart.

1. I'm not saying the people posting the links are scaremongering.  I'm saying the media bringing attention to what happens in under 1% of trades is to scare people. If they had no news,  and wanted to create content on btc trades then they could talk about generic trade info. How it works,  etc. Have you ever traded in person? Did you get arrested?

2. Im not interested in what it's called or your advice. It might be illegal in some backward US state but seeing as how I don't reside there I don't care. Whats not smart is in person trades of 15K in the US,  im not afraid to point out the obvious.

>Have you ever traded in person? Did you get arrested?

I've committed other felonies in person.
"Man Commits Crime; Doesn't Get Caught!" makes a shitty news story.

> Im not interested in what it's called or your advice.

You've got edge, I get it. All you Swiss are badass mofos.
Please don't fuck up Bitcoin for the rest of us.

Well as long as those felonies have no victim on the other end (like p2p btc trading)  then I hope you did your due diligence and wish you luck with the outcome.

We won't fuck it up.  There is a town we can directly pay the government with btc,  and behind Arnhem the city Zug is arguably the 2nd bitcoin capital of Europe. I hope we don't import any laws or ideas on btc from over there,  that would only harm btc.