Bitcoin Forum

I see that bitcoinmarket registrations are still closed, so I'm proposing a solution which should fix the paypal, moneybookers & other "soft" currencies scam problem, so the site can be opened immediately:

1. Allow trading in "hard", non-drawbackable currencies (such as Pecunix, LibertyReserve, Wester Union etc.) to everybody.

2. Allow trading in "soft" currencies only for users which are trusted. Trusted means:
a) Are registered for 3 months or longer, or are registered & trusted now
b) Have traded at least X BTC minimum and have perfect trade history without any scams or other problems
c) Have verified their credentials through some mechanism - credit card, mail verify code delivery or personal digital signature.
The solution can be composed of all a) b) and c) or their combinations.

3. Force all Paypal & Moneybookers transfers to wait at least 5 days before they can be finalized. This should solve the stolen credit cards reversal problem.

4. Allow paying with paysafecard and such.

Sounds good to me. I don't see any risk that this would leave.

It is still not foolproof. Even trusted, or longstanding members rip a person off every now and then, it would just encourage them to make a few transactions first in order to build a false sense of trust, then make a larger order and claim fraud of some sort with Paypal or credit card. I don't see paypal being a big problem for those who want to withdraw from a market, but deposits are just impossible unless you ABSOLUTELY trust the person, even with verifications. When you are presented with a chargeback, it's up to you to present evidence that shows you actually sent something(which is hard to do with digital goods), evidence that what you sent is correct and as described, and evidence that you have sent to the right person. Even with presenting this information, you might still lose because of PP or your CC unable to grasp the idea of Bitcoin.

It's a good idea, and it would help against fraud, but not entirely.

I suppose - correct me if I'm wrong - that most scams were made with stolen CC or PP accounts... using your own identity while performing a scam like this looks risky.
And for the case of stolen accounts, the thief has to act fast, s/he can't waste time with small transactions.

No system is foolproof, but ShadowOfHarbringer's suggestions are good.  That should eliminate 80% of fraud, which is "hit-and-run" scammers with stolen accounts, who must liquidate in a hurry before account owner notices.

The remaining frauds are

• person with good reputation, who has their account hacked
• person with good reputation, who, one day, without warning, "spends" that reputation on a massive fraud

The latter has occurred several times on eBay, where a titanium powerseller (the highest seller ranking) who has been completing sales for happy buyers suddenly switches to "evil mode", where they take customer money but never ship product.

I call this the "sleeper cell" fraud.  An intentional, long-term plan is the most difficult to prevent.

I doubt there are any algorithm or any human being that can detect if somebody is doing this kind of fraud, unless he is a serial fraudster.

I never said (or did I ?) that it will stop all scams.
But it is MUCH better than nothing.

I only wanted to create a solution which will enable re-opening of the trade websites.

A distinction between "hard" and "soft" currencies is an important one.  I already allow sellers the option of a 10-day delay, although it's not enforced.  Regardless, I'm saving all good ideas for the new design.  I'm keeping registration closed so I can focus on this new design.  If it goes on too long, I may hold an open registration day for people who don't have a forum reputation, verifiable ID, or don't know anyone who can vouch for them.  Otherwise, you can email me and I'll set up an account for you.  I'd rather have it open for everyone, but the main concern is to protect those already registered.

I hope something like this will be implemented, it's too darn hard to get money from the 'real economy' into bitcoins at the moment.
You have to register on some fishy site to buy liberty reserve with your credit card, then another site to swap them for Bitcoins. Going from Paypal/Moneybrokers/etc seems to be completely impossible at the moment.
Although I'd really like to play with this, this is way too much trouble for me. And takes too much time.

to witchspace: You can buy bitcoins directly from me using Liqpay.com to transfer your money from Visa or Mastercard to my acc. It will take you 5-15 min to do it. All you need is CC and mobile phone to receive SMS with one-time password. If interested send me PM for detailed instructions.

Isn't Liqpay a soft currency with reversable transactions the same as Paypal, MoneyBookers or Credit Cards ?
Or am I wrong ?

So this doesn't solve the general problem.

AFAIK liqpay transactions aren't reversible, someone correct me if i'm wrong

Any soft money based on a credit card transaction can be reversed.

Liqpay does get chargebacks and they do claw back from those stealer-munkees.

You guys cause me to shake my head. This bitcoin project is designed to address the privacy and fraud problems of tele-commerce. You guys seem to want to thwart that by inviting strangers to check your credit and soliciting money with strings attached.

It's been this same old story since we started e-gold back in 98. There is one particular nationality of people who just can't seem to understand the difference between cash and credit.

Actually, I'm not talking about "credit" cards, but "payment" cards.
In my country, "payment" cards are very popular, while "credit" cards not so much.

The only difference between both of them is that you cannot take credit with "payment" card.
I do not want to have anything to do with "credit", I just care about easyness of money transfer which is given by credit/payment cards & paypal.

Few minutes after making the payment money are avaiable on the receiver's account - that cannot be beaten by anything at the moment (except bitcoin).

Well sure, but then those people want to pay for the purchase cards with their Visa. lol

Liqpay is not chargebackable. Go to the site and check it for yourself!

to Nanaimogold: you just trying to get rid of competitors and use dirty methods for this. Don't post fake information if you don't know this for sure!

If somebody want to make sure the Liqpay transaction is final just try to send as small as 1$ to your friend and then try to rise a dispute to get the money back ;)

I just checked it. Seems to be true.

In France, payment cards charges are reversible.

As for the liqpay thing I think both points are true :
 - They can't be charged back
 - They do get charge backs,

So as I understand it, they get some of their payments reversed, but these reversals never reach the merchant.
But if that is so, then why did mt gox drop them ? (or why did mt gox get dropped by mt gox ?) too many chargebacks on liqpay's side?

Exchangers could maybe use an international clearing service like http://www.clearing-house.net/ if they accept small customers.

Mtgox dropped liqpay ?
I have never seen "liqpay" option on mtgox website.

MtGox had used Liqpay for a week or so, but because lack of interest from most users he drop them and swiched to LR. BTW bad reputation for liqpay is originated from false speculations of some forumers.

I have :)


If it is just because of lack of interest from the users that's sad, I found it to be the easiest way to buy bitcoins. Well, maybe someone will pick it back up.

Did you just insult me?

You are not competing with me - you don't even play in the same league.

ALL credit cards can be charged back and in card not present transactions the merchant has no avenue to arbitration.

Liqpay does what they can to prevent fraud but no system is perfect. They DO get chargebacks and they DO clawback when they can and close accounts when they cannot.

PrivatBank is not issuing the cards being charged and they do not make policy for the many card issuers in this world.

Credit Cards = chargebackable. It is diabolical what lengths some payment providers go to in trying to hide this fact.

Its a policy that wont be changed anytime soon. Best to move on to more positive pursuits such as suggestions for enabling easier cash exchanging either in person or by mail.

If your trade partner can get to a branch of your bank, he can make a cash deposit to your account.

Sorry, I didn't try to insult you, there were another users criticizing Liqpay so don't take it personal please.

I'm not trying to play in YOUR leage with your

                              Bid        Ask        Last

Nanaimo Gold  :     0.2451     0.2759     0.2500

4323.51 BTC in inventory worth USD $1223.55

I can propose MY OWN leage with

40000 BTC in inventory

and 0.27 Bid and 0.29 Ask

You can PM me if you still want to buy/sell bitcoins with Liqpay :)

One group is trying to build a market and another group is trying to play a market.

Different leagues indeed.

(i did not search the forum exhaustively to find a proposal similar to the one i suggest, below,
i hope i'm  not offending anyone with its triviality)

What is the past time interval required for a soft-cash transaction to become non-redeemable?

If there is indeed such an interval, then an exchange-trader willing to trade his bcs for my soft-cash
could demand from me (client) upfront an insurance in bcs.

Here is the 4 step procedure:

Lets assume that:
a) the non-redeemamble interval is 6 months, and that
b) I (the client) want 10bcs.


1) I make a transfer(insurance deposit) to trader's address of 10 bitcoins, .

2) I place the same amount of soft-cash on the trader's (i.e.) paypal account.

3) The trader then waits for 6 months, for the paypal-transaction to become non-redeemamble,
and afterwards,

4) he transfers to me (the client) the initial insurance-deposit(10bcs) along with the purchased amount(10bcs),
20bcs in total.


In total, i, the client, need x2 the ammount i wanted to buy, half in soft-cash and half in bcs.


I know it has the drawback that it precludes the newbies with no bcs at all, like myself.
But at least there is *some* safe way to purchase bcs online, a necessity for clients around the globe, like myself.

(and the insurance may be left intact for further transactions, kind of a registration-fee)


Why whouldn't this work?

because nobody wants to wait half a year to get his bitcoins.

+1 :)

+2

That's just too long.

Yes, but i suppose that you live in the US, so obviously you can have other alternatives.

Not me.


Nevertheless, the trader can even appeal to people like yourself, not wanting to «wait half-a-year to get their bitcoins» by offering them a "call option", that is, giving them the right, but not the obligation to purchase the bitcoins after the half-year, for the agreed price.

there's already quite a bit of trading for various tx methods going on on #bitcoin-otc. paypal, bank transfer, moneypak, cash... even some short-term options have been traded.

This doesn't really solve the problem because they can freeroll since they can yank back what they paid for it every time they don't want to execute the option. 

Would sending a physical voucher with a code to get their bitcoins solve this?

Obviously it would incur overhead, but it would mean you could have a more traditional proof of postage which would be useful in disputes.