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Title: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: BitHits on March 22, 2013, 06:33:21 AM How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee)
Ideally a fee proportionate to the total input of the transaction. Clearly this is not possible with official client. Anyone know how this can be done? Can an alternative client do it ? Or perhaps a raw tx from the main? If anyone knows how to do this I would really like to know! (Currently paying 1000% of BTC Transacted just to send the Transaction, Horribly broken system imho) Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: CIYAM on March 22, 2013, 06:37:29 AM Am guessing you are playing SD or similar?
The problem is that they send you a "dust" UTXO every time that you lose (it contains the minimum fee + 1 satoshi). Once your wallet starts filling up with such dust the standard client has difficulty in working out how to spend it without actually charging you more in tx's fees than the amount you might want to be sending (assuming it is a very small amount you are wanting to send in particular). There are some solutions to cleaning up such wallet *dust* although my advice would be to avoid gathering the dust in the first place. :) Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: BitHits on March 22, 2013, 06:41:13 AM Actually, I'm trying to run a BitCoin Faucet/PTC Site.
www.BitHits.info The fees are becoming ridiculous thou! Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: CIYAM on March 22, 2013, 06:45:19 AM oic - am guessing the best way to avoid fees with a faucet would be to have all its UTXOs being the exact amount as the outputs you wish to send and then just make sure that the wallet is "old" enough so that no tx fees are required at all (and replace wallets with new ones as they get exhausted).
Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: CIYAM on March 22, 2013, 06:57:20 AM Do sendmany Yes - that is probably the easiest solution. Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: BitHits on March 22, 2013, 07:49:35 AM ... is there a client that can do sendmany ?
..i found this Code: sendmany <fromaccount> {address:amount,...} [minconf=1] [comment]That would be a very very long command thou... I generally send to about 2000+ addresses at once. Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: flower1024 on March 22, 2013, 07:52:32 AM ... is there a client that can do sendmany ? default bitcoind with commandline or rpc or you use blockchain.info Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: BitHits on March 22, 2013, 08:01:18 AM I think I can make a script that will create such a request.. :)
Code: y = 0 Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: gweedo on March 22, 2013, 08:02:30 AM I think I can make a script that will create such a request.. :) If your using php it is really easy get all address and amount put them into an array, then run json_encode on the array and then pass it to the bitcoind Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: BitHits on March 22, 2013, 08:19:42 AM lol! Max debug console input is 32,767 characters
Also got this error... Quote Error: value is type int, expected obj Something tells me this has something to do with it Code: amounts are double-precision floating point numbers (code -1) UPDATE: After a JSON Error, a few Invalid BitCoin Address errors, and a insufficient funds error I finally got it to sendmany :) But.... 980% the amount transferred just to send it! Code: BTC Transacted: 0.001422 BTC That was just a test really, 4 days worth of 'Single BitHitters' - 711 Addresses Paid :) also........ Unless There is a way I can pass more data to the Debug Console I cant do much larger tx then that.... 711 is only 49 addresses short of my source list I was using... This....might actually be a HIGHER fee then what sending normally with the GUI was ? Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: BitHits on March 23, 2013, 04:34:53 AM So... No solution as of yet has been proposed and the 1000% fee is .... not workable. I want to send thousands of people BTC! RIGHT NAO. Anyone know of a working method to have a even remotely reasonable tx fee ?
Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: gweedo on March 23, 2013, 04:41:41 AM So... No solution as of yet has been proposed and the 1000% fee is .... not workable. I want to send thousands of people BTC! RIGHT NAO. Anyone know of a working method to have a even remotely reasonable tx fee ? Ok your running a faucet, since your transactions are very small probably I am guessing, this is how the network protects it's self, so having no fees will never happen, you can set the fee to zero it will or may never confirm, and low fees aren't possible, unless you age the coins for a long time. So right now the best way, is the way your doing it. Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: CIYAM on March 23, 2013, 04:44:49 AM And to quote myself:
oic - am guessing the best way to avoid fees with a faucet would be to have all its UTXOs being the exact amount as the outputs you wish to send and then just make sure that the wallet is "old" enough so that no tx fees are required at all (and replace wallets with new ones as they get exhausted). (although that might mean having to put a month delay between now and your next payouts to age the coins enough) Note that using uniform payment UTXOs (i.e. no change needed) will help to avoid getting even newer dust UTXO's every time you make a payout. Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: Peter Todd on March 23, 2013, 08:15:08 AM So... No solution as of yet has been proposed and the 1000% fee is .... not workable. I want to send thousands of people BTC! RIGHT NAO. Anyone know of a working method to have a even remotely reasonable tx fee ? The Bitcoin blockchain is not a microtransactions payment system. Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: BitHits on March 23, 2013, 08:21:27 AM Well...how the fuck are all these other PTC/Faucets doing it without running a 10x loss on what they send!?
Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: Peter Todd on March 23, 2013, 08:26:51 AM Well...how the fuck are all these other PTC/Faucets doing it without running a 10x loss on what they send!? I dunno. Maybe they are too? Where an example of one of their transactions for us to look at? Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: gweedo on March 23, 2013, 08:29:11 AM Well...how the fuck are all these other PTC/Faucets doing it without running a 10x loss on what they send!? They send it once a day, probably other external funds that are aged. Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: Peter Todd on March 23, 2013, 08:31:11 AM They send it once a day, probably other external funds that are aged. That's not it - the default fee rules force fee payment on dust outputs. Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: CIYAM on March 23, 2013, 08:34:58 AM That's not it - the default fee rules force fee payment on dust outputs. If the output is old enough then no tx fee is necessary (even if it is only 1 Satoshi). Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: Peter Todd on March 23, 2013, 08:42:20 AM Not if aged, if aged long enough no fees are force, or even needed. This is prevent spamming the blockchain. No, CTxMemPool::accept() won't accept such a transaction into the mempool at all: Code: int64 txMinFee = tx.GetMinFee(1000, true, GMF_RELAY); and CTransaction::GetMinFee(): Code: // To limit dust spam, require MIN_TX_FEE/MIN_RELAY_TX_FEE if any output is less than 0.01 Age has nothing to do with it. Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: Peter Todd on March 23, 2013, 08:58:03 AM Read the code, not some wiki.
Priority is only used if the minimum fee is zero. If there is a dust output, the minimum fee calculated by GetMinFee() is not zero. Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: gweedo on March 23, 2013, 09:03:39 AM Read the code, not some wiki. Priority is only used if the minimum fee is zero. If there is a dust output, the minimum fee calculated by GetMinFee() is not zero. You have no link to the code, I can't take your word for a snippet, but I am still 99.999999% sure that dust, that is aged can be sent without a fee, if aged. I coded a faucet, I kinda know what I am talking about in that sense, and the wiki is also pretty reliable. Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: Peter Todd on March 23, 2013, 09:07:18 AM https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L574
Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: CIYAM on March 23, 2013, 09:10:27 AM https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L574 Didn't know you could add the line # to such source links - nice! But just below that is the following: Code: if (fAllowFree) And the call you showed to this function sets fAllowFree to true. Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: Peter Todd on March 23, 2013, 09:15:41 AM The code you quoted sets nMinFee to zero if there is space left in the current block, or if the size is less than 10KB, depending on the value of the nBlockSize argument to the function.
However regardless of what nMinFee is set to the next part sets nMinFee to nBaseFee - either 0.0005 or 0.0001 depending on if the fee is being calculated for transaction relay or inclusion in a block - regardless of fAllowFree if there is a dust output. Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: CIYAM on March 23, 2013, 09:21:05 AM Interesting - does this apply to both "sides" of the tx (i.e. the input UTXOs and the output UTXOs)?
Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: Peter Todd on March 23, 2013, 09:23:54 AM Interesting - does this apply to both "sides" of the tx (i.e. the input UTXOs and the output UTXOs)? No, only outputs. Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: CIYAM on March 23, 2013, 09:26:01 AM No, only outputs. Aha - then I am not quite sure what the OP's problem is if you look at something like this: https://blockchain.info/tx/0e058abfe294c051262610ff689a75577f5884529cc1cfcc108cd491b0d6b64f ??? Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: BitHits on March 23, 2013, 09:51:48 PM wait...so you mean to tell me the age of my coins is the primary factor? I thought it was the size of the transaction that was the main driver...
I'm assuming when sending coins using Official Client its automatically using the oldest coins first... Code: priority = sum(input_value_in_base_units * input_age)/size_in_bytes so the total value of the transaction * the age / size of tx.... you would think a larger transaction....would have a smaller fee then and if that formula is taken literally, the OLDER the coins, the higher the fee.... Assuming a tx value of 0.04 and an age of 1 day and 4 days, with a 20,000 byte size $calc(0.04 * 1)/20000) = 0.04 fee to send 0.04 $calc(0.04 * 4)/20000) = 0.16 fee to send 0.04 at the same time, thats not the fee thats calculated :P Thats the priority, so a lower priority would incur a larger fee and a higher priority would incur a lower fee.... so really 0.04 priority on 1 day old coins and 0.16 priority on 4 day old coins. So....those calculations are not exact or accurate at all, but proportionately they should be close. As I'm sure the number formats I'm using are not the same passed in the protocol or used in actual calculation... Using the real values, what would be the ideal age/size for a transaction of 0.0208 lets say to 2600 Addresses for a size of about... 100kb (0.000008 to each addr) Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: BitHits on March 23, 2013, 10:10:03 PM No, only outputs. Aha - then I am not quite sure what the OP's problem is if you look at something like this: https://blockchain.info/tx/0e058abfe294c051262610ff689a75577f5884529cc1cfcc108cd491b0d6b64f ??? 40686 size 0.94498248 input fees came out to 0.0205 1191 addresses paid... majority of that transaction was to 1CQxknB3zDS6tCLJUP7ZBfTS8yfRmABjhT 0.94497058 BTC I've thought about included a larger input to an affiliate or something usually like 400uBTC if i process a 4 day payout, could try to process like 14 days at a time, but would have to be broken up into many transactions Also the larger input was probably added later by the network, ive seen that happen on some of my payout transactions. Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: Gavin Andresen on March 23, 2013, 10:31:38 PM Straight Bitcoin isn't designed for really small transactions. If you're sending less than something like $1 worth of bitcoins, you should expect to pay 10% or more in fees. More if you're trying to send $0.10 or less.
There is no magic fairy wand we can wave and make Bitcoin suddenly great for gazillions of tiny transactions; plan your businesses accordingly. As transaction volume increases, there will be more competition for space in blocks and fees are likely to rise. And please avoid filling your customer's wallets with "dust" that they'll pay huge fees to spend; a payout should be at least a couple of cents, not a fraction of a penny. I think there is pretty good consensus among the core developers that sooner or later we'll make "dust" outputs non-standard, so they are not relayed or mined by default (details to be worked out, we need to implement a good algorithm for auto-adjusting the definition of "dust"). Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: BitHits on March 23, 2013, 10:38:13 PM Straight Bitcoin isn't designed for really small transactions. If you're sending less than something like $1 worth of bitcoins, you should expect to pay 10% or more in fees. More if you're trying to send $0.10 or less. There is no magic fairy wand we can wave and make Bitcoin suddenly great for gazillions of tiny transactions; plan your businesses accordingly. As transaction volume increases, there will be more competition for space in blocks and fees are likely to rise. And please avoid filling your customer's wallets with "dust" that they'll pay huge fees to spend; a payout should be at least a couple of cents, not a fraction of a penny. I think there is pretty good consensus among the core developers that sooner or later we'll make "dust" outputs non-standard, so they are not relayed or mined by default (details to be worked out, we need to implement a good algorithm for auto-adjusting the definition of "dust"). Wow! For someone to get $1 worth of bitcoins...at current rate....using many of the Faucet sites.... They'd have to max out their limit on my site for 25 days straight...That would also mean I would need to process a months worth of transactions at a time..... And your doing this...by design!? Also adding an option to voluntarily declare your output non-standard and pay no tx fee or a fee with a reasonable calculation based on tx input would be a great option! I'm paying 1000% in fees currently. So fuck 10% would be awesome! Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: jaywaka2713 on March 23, 2013, 10:40:13 PM Actually, I'm trying to run a BitCoin Faucet/PTC Site. www.BitHits.info The fees are becoming ridiculous thou! Try only paying out once a day by grouping every transaction together. Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: BitHits on March 23, 2013, 10:48:37 PM These are the payouts I've done so far.
1 day http://blockchain.info/tx/1bac0affe468940a679576f1dcdb687355560892600228c69c12ca914b4fd34f http://blockchain.info/tx/36567fb8b3a76a4dd29e08800fc50300c6dc8348a190c9e7454ac1116e281575 1 day http://blockchain.info/tx/1e559d53134e26acd259e6c314e540c4313734dc71961646c07d6941fe2b38ca 1 day http://blockchain.info/tx/d6f664ba78d003680416fb0f63c3dbd0d7a4e5aa7adb18de44db62506aefd372 1 day http://blockchain.info/tx/db90637b4a7107b3abcfee3669357770f26ddbf2d7231317154a1d9ce98e1346 2 days http://blockchain.info/tx/63628dcf1800fd0c26bee6f3fdab777e7fe71075054cc343e1e4cbe059157304 2 days http://blockchain.info/tx/3b7021f03e745fdba2aafee65dc30d07dd3d88644fc4030792187fa64e2ef917 1 day http://blockchain.info/tx/251683372fe66d45444f34969813a4223f57f2fdab5f067d8ba2e000b2ea44a2 2 days http://blockchain.info/tx/7307b81ad1953c1ce7a82c76d3d53986afb682f5b949f25a81aef943f5c28f72 2 days http://blockchain.info/tx/3748bdd0392802c665134e55186d06010a314bb7f6a6d4c23129313913cd8349 2 days http://blockchain.info/tx/59665fd8ff4e9c68cba72fe25be9b68f6fa0f9e5dc87e0e7c6639c0e69bcedec 2 days http://blockchain.info/tx/46af1219713b0bddac9e02529d20d211c15f46425d764e23594bc25b4d5082c9 1 day http://blockchain.info/tx/7b02ac50314c928beb9011eecf096aaecf264026a1948f7dadbff412e23e3427 4 days http://blockchain.info/tx/24ee838c252c39b131f33202874b379e363e0d4e0d620581959a711dfaa84f05 And then there was a bit of an experiement on the recent payout, tried multiple tx sizes Code: 2013-03-16 23:27:18 0.008114 BTC I'll sum up the total amount sent and the total fees to sent said amount in the next few minutes and update. Total Sent: 0.043105 Fees 0.111 257% in amount sent paid in fees. Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: jaywaka2713 on March 23, 2013, 11:01:38 PM Some send once a week. Try asking other faucet admins about their methods and see if you can pick up a script to automate sendmany for you. I'm sure their servers contain such scripts. If anything, try looking at the source code of a faucet site and see if the input area for the Bitcoin Address sends the input to a script, and if so, rip the script and reverse it for your server. I'm sure asking for it would be much easier though.
Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: BitHits on March 23, 2013, 11:09:18 PM I've been in touch with the admins of two other sites.
So far I've been suggested to use the mtgox api Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: jaywaka2713 on March 25, 2013, 03:13:24 AM I've been in touch with the admins of two other sites. So far I've been suggested to use the mtgox api That actually would be much better than just writing a simple script, as such a script could potentially kill a server that doesn't have enough RAM. Try generating a payment request of 2000+ addresses with variable payments and such in one command. Potential lag fest. MtGox API would be much cleaner. Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: Dabs on March 25, 2013, 06:26:56 AM Straight Bitcoin isn't designed for really small transactions. If you're sending less than something like $1 worth of bitcoins, you should expect to pay 10% or more in fees. More if you're trying to send $0.10 or less. There is no magic fairy wand we can wave and make Bitcoin suddenly great for gazillions of tiny transactions; plan your businesses accordingly. As transaction volume increases, there will be more competition for space in blocks and fees are likely to rise. And please avoid filling your customer's wallets with "dust" that they'll pay huge fees to spend; a payout should be at least a couple of cents, not a fraction of a penny. I think there is pretty good consensus among the core developers that sooner or later we'll make "dust" outputs non-standard, so they are not relayed or mined by default (details to be worked out, we need to implement a good algorithm for auto-adjusting the definition of "dust"). Hi. How is "dust" defined? Does that mean, the real smallest bitcoin unit is not really a Satoshi or 0.00000001? What good are the 8 decimal places for when you can't really use them? That just cuts down on the value or divisibility of the coin. Also, for a Satoshi, how long must it be aged before you can spend it without a fee? I've got some dust from an older wallet that I can't get right now, so either I wait for it to age, or I figure out a way to send it to myself without a fee. What's one work around for this? Can I use larger amounts together with my dust so I can consolidate them without a fee? Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: deepceleron on March 25, 2013, 04:40:05 PM These are the payouts I've done so far. .. http://blockchain.info/tx/24ee838c252c39b131f33202874b379e363e0d4e0d620581959a711dfaa84f05 This is blockchain spam. You are sending thousands of 0.000002-0.000006 BTC payments that can hardly be spent (the recipient has to pay minimum fees to spend them too). If Bitcoins were $1000 each these are still fractions of a USD penny. I would be pissed if you sent this crap to my wallet. Only the naive would sign up or expend any effort to receive such payments. One transaction - 1/10th of a megabyte that has to be stored by every node on the network forever and transmitted to every new user before they can use Bitcoin, you really think that 0.049 BTC is too expensive to do that? Ask Western Union how much they would charge to send 1000 money transfers that can be redeemed anywhere in the world. Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: nonnakip on March 30, 2013, 10:30:55 PM And please avoid filling your customer's wallets with "dust" that they'll pay huge fees to spend; a payout should be at least a couple of cents, not a fraction of a penny. I think there is pretty good consensus among the core developers that sooner or later we'll make "dust" outputs non-standard, so they are not relayed or mined by default (details to be worked out, we need to implement a good algorithm for auto-adjusting the definition of "dust"). By default nothing should be censored. Miners and relay nodes must decide for themselves if they want to censor by actively enabling a censor. Do not use a censor as a solution to your failed technical implementation. Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: nonnakip on March 31, 2013, 11:18:53 PM These are the payouts I've done so far. .. http://blockchain.info/tx/24ee838c252c39b131f33202874b379e363e0d4e0d620581959a711dfaa84f05 This is blockchain spam. You are sending thousands of 0.000002-0.000006 BTC payments that can hardly be spent (the recipient has to pay minimum fees to spend them too). If Bitcoins were $1000 each these are still fractions of a USD penny. I would be pissed if you sent this crap to my wallet. Only the naive would sign up or expend any effort to receive such payments. One transaction - 1/10th of a megabyte that has to be stored by every node on the network forever and transmitted to every new user before they can use Bitcoin, you really think that 0.049 BTC is too expensive to do that? What you call "blockchain spam" is critical for longterm success of Bitcoin. Without miners there is no Bitcoin. And miners rely evermore on tx fees. Bitcoin currently has 8 decimal places. If I want to send a transaction with 1000 payments of 0.00000001 BTC then that must be allowed. And miners will be very happy to process such transactions. Whether or not it is profitable for me to create such transactions is my business. "dust" should be welcomed and celebrated. It keeps Bitcoin alive. If Bitcoin software has a problem with "dust" then it has a problem with the future. Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: BitHits on April 02, 2013, 06:50:08 AM I'm mostly aiming for a tx size of just under 10k and a total input of 0.01 or more, so far i havent quite hit the mark but I've been getting close.
http://blockchain.info/tx/bcd40b654fd84b69cb7ecf3538ea7acec2c9a4fccb25faa2e90f82a6ae51777c Size 7816 (bytes) BTC Sent 0.00709 BTC Fees 0.004 BTC http://blockchain.info/tx/aaaad80916549752ab7a4f66f8d760180b8e188e5d84e932db19b25393573738 Size 5680 (bytes) BTC Sent 0.007098 BTC Fees 0.003 BTC At least my tx fee vs total input is not retardedly disproportionate Title: Re: How to send BitCoins with LOW TX FEE (Not No TX Fee) Post by: ShadowOfHarbringer on April 02, 2013, 07:41:10 AM @BitHits
You can use either raw transactions or my fork (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=22434.msg1668095#msg1668095) to send transactions with lower fees than normal. However beware, if you miscalculate and send a transaction without fee that should be sent with fee, it may never confirm. This usually applies to dust or very fresh coins (recently received). |