Bitcoin Forum

Hello all,

Its tax time for alot of us in the US. I told my CPA about my ventures into Bitcoin and he is stating that i should file my earnings for 2012. Seems the IRS may come at people years from not claiming they needed to file in retrospect and owe alot of monies.

What is everyone else doing?

Some people are just selling bitcoins for cash or other items so no one else will know about it.

Protip : Dont incriminate yourself.

my big worry is if i do not report now, they may come at me 5-10 years from now with interested owed.

If Bitcoin is still worth anything 5-10 years from now and you own some now you'll likely be able to manage that risk by just moving outside their jurisdiction.

From what ive heard you only need to report (register with FinCEN) if you mine BTC and convert to USD. Does the same go for reporting on taxes? I have not converted any bitcoins to dollars, only traded for services and products.

You sold bitcoins this year or last?  My condolences.  You should have already had all your tax questions answered before you sold them.  Now you already did some financial transactions without thinking about how it was going to look on your taxes until after you did it?  Generally not a good thing to do with large amounts of money.

I am not going to give you specific tax or legal advice.

Generally speaking, a bitcoin miner's plan, especially considering the current regulatory uncertainty, should include documentation of expenses and a talk with a lawyer who can tell you how to legally convert your coins into the currency of your choice if you are really afraid of (unlikely this year) potentially enforceable  regulation coming in this hard on the heels of the guidance.

Unless the OP renounces citizenship (not a bad idea right now), moving does nothing except offer a potential 95K tax credit if you live 330 days (or something like that) outside the USA.

The only country on the planet that taxes its citizens regardless of where they live.

...the land of the free  ::)

yeah a shame the US is the world police at this point.



I havnt sold any of my coins luckily, i bought 7btc back when they were worth $5 each in July of last year. But i have been mining non stop since then, so i take it the appreciation from July till Jan 1st would be taxable as capital gains? And can i write off the electricity used for mining as an expense?

i found a great wiki page on tax compliance but it dosnt seem to be updated since the US Treasury made their statement last week. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Tax_compliance

And what about claiming my mining as a "hobby"? Since i have no exchanged any BTC to USD?

EDIT: I saw another thread where someone had the idea of claiming earnings as "gambling" only if over $5000... Since Bitcoins are not considered a true currency by the US, couldnt i claim that i was gambling by using GPU power to harvest coins and holding on to them? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=153202.msg1627264#msg1627264

Bitcoin could be considered a currency.  That's one thing to look at since the FinCEN guidance makes it pretty clear that a "de-centralized virtual currency" is going to be treated much like a real currency in future rule making effort at FinCEN.

That sucks for tax purposes, unfortunately, treated as income.  I think the best way to go is to set up a business and run all electricity costs and capital costs through that business, treating exchanged coins as revenue.  Depending on the structure of the business, can be taxed differently.  Could attempt to be taxed as dividend or capital gain that way? Or income as pass through?

i like that idea, i have an LLC that has been active for years now that i use for my IT consulting. I will include it under that possibly. And also list my hardware and power costs as a capitol loss.


Yes that is how i feel too, trying to average difficulty and BTC to USD price over 5 months would be hard.

I am also thinking about listing my electricity, and mining rig parts as loses for this 2012. As this year if i do pull BTC out for USD then there will be big capital gains from when i earned most of the BTC back in late 2012.

Another thing to consider is that mining equipment depreciates.  So you don't write off the full purchase price in the year you purchase it.  I'm not an accountant, but I think it should depreciate faster than an automobile.  Someone needs to ask an accountant what the max depreciation rate on capital expenses is.  I know there are categories, like on buildings its 15-20 years and cars is 5-10, but mining equipment it should be more like 1-3 years.  Can you make up a category or do you need to use a pre-defined one? 

When I did GPU mining the cards only lasted 12 months or so before I felt they were getting worn and sold them off.  I'm hoping asics don't wear out so fast because no built-in fan.  Depreciation should be less % per year too.

Identifying yourself to any 3 letter agency as a Bitcoin miner is only asking for trouble down the road.

You really think they wouldn't try a coordinated attack against miners?

Bitcoin is the greatest threat to the single most powerful organization on the planet.  Do you really think they won't use every tool at their disposal to protect their interest?

Revealing yourself as a minor is not displaying much foresight.

Don't do it.

If you must move wealth out of Bitcoin, move it to Gold, Silver, Platinum... and avoid all the headaches moving to fiat would cause you.

The fincen guidelines are not related to taxes. Both before and after the guidelines, U.S. citizens and residents are required to report all earnings, including those related to bitcoin.

Reporting puts you in the spotlight. Unless you have an operation of similar size of Mtgox DONT report. Keep under the radar, the world as we know it wont be the same in 5 years due to Bitcoin anyway. Watch Pandoras box unleash itself towards the world and change it completely. Fincen or whatever their name is wont matter as a power entity by then.

Actually, post-finCEN guidance DOES matter.  Before, you could report dollar earnings from bitcoin mining without worrying about it.  Now you have to ask yourself: Am I incriminating myself as operating as a Money Transmitter or Money Service Business without a license when I report dollar earnings from bitcoin mining?

I do NOT encourage you to dodge taxes. I RECOMMAND that you declare all your incomes including incomes in Bitcoin.
The explanations below are only a though experiment, for illustrative purpose, and used as an illustration of what you should seek to AVOID DOING, because that would represent an offence under income law.

great thanks me and my CPA decided to not go with FIFO or LIFO. He suggested we file my earnings as you would with stock shares. So we calculated from when the coins were mined to the end of the tax year and then "averaged" the earnings. That way when they do appreciate more i have already paid taxes on them (end of 2012 being around $15).

Since i use my mining computer for gaming and work i cannot write off the electricity he stated. But i can write off the video cards are expenses.

He stated if i build a dedicated mining rig.. or buy an ASIC that would be a pure business expense. And would be able to write it off during that tax year bought. He also stated if i mined in a dedicated room, part of my cooling bill and electricity bill can be written off.. but only if that room is used for purely business.

thought you all would want to know...

Like IRS would know it if you are using your computer for gaming...

Notice how everything your CPA said is his suggestion or opinion. I am not disregarding his opinion, but the reason why he is giving you suggestions is because there are no IRS or court precedents regarding bitcoin mining or trading. The best that any professional can do, your accountant included, is apply your specific business situation to the applicable tax regulations governing capital gains and small business taxation. I tend to agree with your accountants treatment of your mining business. I would comment that he is erring on the conservative side by not allowing business percentage use of your mining rig and utility costs. This is a sensible approach as it will allow for a higher tax rate on you. This is bad because it means more money out of your pocket, but it is good in that it gives the IRS less of an incentive to ask questions regarding your Bitcoin business. The fewer questions you have to answer from the IRS the better. Many times it is better to pay a little more tax in order not to have to answer those questions. No one should accept tax evasion advice in a public forum. The Common sense response to the tax evasion you are suggesting is that the IRS doesn't care if you mine $1000 worth of bitcoins and go through your whole process of selling stuff on ebay, or transfering coins to friends, in order to evade $100 worth of tax. But if you have made significant sums (maybe 100K or more) and you just bought yourself a Mercedes or a boat or opened a foreign bank account with your name and social, AND you are claiming you are a simple student with $5000 of taxable income on your tax returns, then the IRS will have an incentive to investigate you. A financial incentive because you are hiding large sums of tax revenue and a criminal incentive because you are engaging in sophisticated money laundering and tax evasion schemes that the IRS Criminal Investigations Division are tasked to prosecute. Once an investigation is opened it is up to you how you handle it. Either hire yourself a good and expensive lawyer or negotiate a plea bargain. But in the end, tax evasion doesn't pay off. The money you save today, will in all likelihood be spent tomorrow either hiring a good lawyer and accountant or directly to pay your back taxes.

Bearing in mind that these must be non-legal tender items.  If they are coins, minted with a face value, then they are currency as well.  Blocks of gold / silver / platinum don't count as currency, but gold / silver / platinum "currency" is the same thing for legal purposes.

If you sold your bitcoins, use capital gains, short or long term. If you are holding bitcoins, no tax event has occurred

IANAL

Horseshit! I have lived outside the US for many years and I pay no taxes to the US.  What kind of crap are you trying to spread. You people that think you have it so bad in the US make me vomit.  You have no idea how the rest of the world lives. 

You might want to read this Zedster: http://www.irs.gov/publications/p54/ch01.html#en_US_2012_publink100047323

Here is an excerpt:

LMAO...seriously??

Sadly (AFAIK) the US the only country which bases tax obligation on citizenship not residency so your only option to avoid US taxes is to renounce your citizenship which is no easy task.

Also to renounce citizenship one must:
a) be current on all taxes (yes they will check with IRS and this will likely prompt an audit of your last 7 years of tax returns).
b) already have citizenship with another country (difficult in most countries to gain dual citizenship after birth but there are some nice caribbean nations willing to do so for a price).
c) pay an "exit" tax on value of assets at the time (I only wish I was kidding).
d) pay a processing fee of $540

In 2011 only ~1,100 people successfully renounced their US citizenship (on edit: looks like ~1,800 in 2012).  Expect to spend thousands of dollars on legal & CPA fees and the process will take a couple months.

Renouncing US citizenship may eliminate future liability but it does nothing to eliminate existing liability.

Um lots of people don't pay their taxes.  Not paying your taxes =/= no tax liability.  Just ask Mr. Snipes ( I hear he was recently released).

Now the US does allow a credit of foreign taxes against US taxes owed so if you live in a high tax country you may end up owing no US taxes but you are still obligated to file a return and pay any US taxes owed.  

BTW: stating the facts doesn't mean support of the policy.    

Jeez. It's easier just to lie the IRS as much as possible like everyone else does.

That probably is the intention.  The US policies regarding taxation are completely out of line with the entire rest of the first world.  Kinda ironic given that unfair taxation was one of the sparks which lead to the revolution.

Not accepting that you're a slave == no tax liability

The IRS lacking jurisdiction over you == no tax liability

You all need to ask yourself, "What evidence are they using to prove you're a taxpayer?"

Most countries require this but the US does not.

True (was kinda simplifying).  Although not a requirement, most legal counsel would recommend it. The only renunciations which have any legal weight are those done on foreign soil.  Even if you are not a citizen of the US, your host country, which likely gave you an entry VISA (explicit or defacto) may not take kindly to the fact that the circumstances that allowed your entry no longer exists.   You can be deported back to the US as a "non-citizen" which is likely a scenario one wants to avoid.  Most countries which allow "easy citizenship" for non residents limit the countries they will accept as applicants (namely US and other "first world" countries).  

Not securing citizenship first could put yourself in somewhat of a bind if you end up deported back to the US as a "non-citizen".  You can never regain US citizenship and most foreign countries will not allow entry to "stateless" persons and the few countries which issue citizenship to non-residents don't issue them to stateless persons.

Granted each persons circumstances are different, if you are a multi-billionaire looking to live permanently at sea as part of some seasteading city you are building well it might make sense to go "stateless".

Only if it is determined that you renounced citizenship for tax reasons.

This video contains an interview with a person who has done this, and with a lawyer familiar with the subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWkoEJ_tYuE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWkoEJ_tYuE)

Horseshit! I have lived outside the US for many years and I pay no taxes to the US.  What kind of crap are you trying to spread. You people that think you have it so bad in the US make me vomit.  You have no idea how the rest of the world lives. 
[/quote]

You might want to read this Zedster: http://www.irs.gov/publications/p54/ch01.html#en_US_2012_publink100047323

Here is an excerpt:
[/quote]

Taken out of context.  You are missing the part that says when you have to pay taxes.  This is only the who.  I will not fight with you since I have been living it for 18 years.

Couldnt you write off your entire electric bill as your cost as a miner?