Bitcoin Forum

When I recently came across 'parasitocracy,' it struck me as a nice twist of wording -- instead of honest democracy or free-market meritocracy, we truly live under rule by parasites.

Trying to describe how the financial and political elites receive unearned wealth and power can get complicated very quickly.  To find a simple but rigorous theory to cover most major features of the beast requires looking at it the right way.

By and large, how it works is that:

• The elites use state power to prop up the value of money, debt, and other financial assets artificially, to benefit those who issue them, i.e. themselves.  When some over-valued asset eventually must crash, the entire economy suffers the loss of jobs, business and savings.

Example: The Bank Account

Public illusion. A commercial-bank 'deposit' is as good as money.  You will get all your money back, any time you want.

Reality. 'Deposits' are really loans to the bank which lends them to borrowers, some of whom may never pay them back.  Another danger is that savers may ask for their money at any time, while loans by the bank tend to have longer-term maturities.

How to bridge myth and reality. An honest system would communicate expectations openly.  A simple example could be having 'depositors' expect to lose money if the bank makes bad loans.  The problem with an honest system, of course, is that top politicians and bankers wouldn't benefit much.

The confidence trick.  The government supports the illusion, while it can.  Classic tools over the centuries include allowing banks to collude by rescuing each other in a crisis, bailing banks out with public money, and providing deposit insurance.  If this gives bankers the incentives to take too much risk, bankers redeem themselves by being a lender to the government.  Since both sets of elites benefit, what problem is there?  (In recent decades investment banks and money market funds have formed a shadow banking system which plays an equivalent role.  While the last US commercial-bank bust happened in the 1980s' savings-and-loan crisis, the last shadow-bank variety occurred in 2007-8.)

Analysis. While credit is indeed crucial to economic growth, to use government power to prop up the values of loans to banks, and then to rely on bureaucrats and their rules to limit risk-taking by bankers is a distortion of the credit market.  It is the driver of much human misery.  Central planning, somehow, always benefits the few at the expense of the many, even if it claims to do just the opposite.


Example: Government Bonds

Public illusion. The 'full faith and credit' of the government stands behind the IOU it issues to you.  Your IOU is as good as money.

Reality. Since much public debt is almost as trusted as money, incurring this debt is almost as good as printing money.  Politicians thus have an incentive to maximize the issuance of debt to receive free political capital, and destabilize their very system in the long run.  Even though powerful governments can keep their debt bubbles going for a century or more, those incentives mean that their IOUs will eventually lose value, one way or another.

How to bridge myth and reality. Even aside from the moral problems of 'money' creation and putting burden on people who can't yet vote, public debt should at least be allowed to sink or swim in the capital markets.  If a government incurs too much debt, savers would be incentivized to punish it by demanding a higher yield, and politicians would in turn be incentivized to cut back borrowing.

The confidence trick. When savers get wary of public debt, the central bank steps in to buy it with freshly printed money, thus propping up the value of these IOUs.  This is done in the name of 'monetary policy,' either by buying public debt directly as 'open market' operations, or, more frequently, by supplying banks with cheap new money so they will buy it.  Most of the time, savers can't fight city hall, and will thus tend to buy and hold IOUs, further limiting the downside risk of their values.  This entire system thus amounts to a bubble.

Analysis. It doesn't matter how powerful a government is -- Public debt always crashes eventually.  The dominant global empires of Spain, the Netherlands, and  Britain were destroyed by this crash in their days.  (In the case of Britain the relevant 'public debt' took the form of paper pound sterling that was officially backed by gold at a fixed price.)  No one believes US debt really payable with anything close to the purchasing power savers and foreign central banks used to buy it, although by the time its value can no longer be propped up, most politicians and voters who have benefited from issuing it will have been gone.


Example: Money

Public illusion. Central banks issue and destroy currency to manage economic output for the benefit of the public.  At least in the West, proper management has resulted in low and constant inflation that has justified the public's evident trust in currency's value.

Reality. The real job description of the central bank is to safeguard the state-bank alliance.  It holds power over the most central asset, money, in order to discourage both politicians and bankers from issuing assets too fast and thus endangering the system.  The goal is well-paced harvesting of the fruits of real work.  Over the decades, prices only move in one direction: up.

How to bridge myth and reality. Unfortunately, there is no way to remove the incentives to abuse the issuance of money while the state has any role in the issuance.

The confidence trick. The problem of holding up the public's trust in currency was solved in a simple fashion by the classical gold and silver standards in their day, while the authorities had enough precious metals to back their paper.  Today, the central bank needs to keep the return on 'safe' assets (e.g. short-term Treasuries, insured deposits) above the return on non-state-issued assets, i.e. gold, silver and Bitcoin.  (Recent books like 'Gold Wars' and 'The Gold Cartel' have come up with good evidence of central-bank suppression of precious metal prices by trading derivatives.)  In this it has succeeded most of the time.  It also needs to keep the return on 'safe' assets below the return on risky assets like stocks, over the long term.  The goal of both mandates is to use state power to force savers to take risks.  (Ever wonder why financial crisis always seems to come back?)  When you hear of 'tightening' or 'loosening' the money supply, this is what's really going on.  So, it's not that the public trusts currency; most feel they have no choice.

Analysis. It's not, as most mainstream ecnomists claim, that state-controlled money is required for modern economic growth.  The Italian Renaissance and Scottish 'free-banking' era were the counter-examples.  It's really the other way round.  The real productivity of the modern world gives value to the financial assets issued by the elites, and thus help sustain their financial inflation, at least until the perverse incentives destabilizes the system anyway.  In the Middle Ages, money was physical gold and silver -- when there was no wealth to extract, the state couldn't create its financial inflation.


Final Thoughts

A key feature of this system is that it doesn't matter if you understand it.  You still must gamble, or risk your savings being eaten away by inflation.  The gamble by the public as a whole is certain to end in loss, since the elites will always destabilize asset values to the point of collapse.  The lose-lose proposition works the same way as literal highway robbery -- you can certainly hold on to your money; you just can't keep your life at the same time.

That said, there are times when the elites are likely to be forced to devalue their money, and with it all other conventional assets, against gold, silver and Bitcoin, in order to hold on to power.  This makes it statistically profitable to hold non-state-issued assets at those times.  (An extreme example would be standing at the front of the line to redeem deposits for cash during a bank run, or to redeem pound sterling for gold at the Bank of England just before Britain was forced off the gold standard.)  Necessarily, only a minority will profit from this bet, but its existence is a healthy incentive that pushes the elites to minimize financial inflation.

The system is an 'open conspiracy.'  Instead of secrecy, it relies on a combination of state power and ignorance by the public.  The only sustainable way to a healthy and just system is for the public to wake up.

...

BobK71

That is a fantastic post, I will need to re-read it tomorrow.  As well as comment in more detail later.

Most of us who closely follow what government and the banks are up to would agree with your analyses.

Briefly:

Re bank accounts, both printing money and bail-ins are "solutions" that could be imposed.  My guess is that in a crunch there would be some small bail-in (say 20%) while the Fed (B of E, etc.) scrambles to print baby print.

Re government bonds and the Debt, this can go on and on (as you write).  Note also that several writers also claim (probably correctly) that the national debt was never meant to be paid of (doing so would shrink the money supply).  My *take* is that it is GROWTH of debt that is the problem.

Re money, I like to think of "money" as having three attributes: Means of Exchange (a way to pay for something), Unit of Account (so we can determine a proper price) and Store of Value (an expectation that the value of each unit of money will be worth the same for a reasonable period).  I learned from FOFOA that no single type of "money" can fill all three roles.  And so it won't.  The most likely end game (again, as you write) is hyperinflation.

*   *   *

Yep, all investments are a gamble, they all have their different kinds of risk.  In my opinion, probably the best that can be done for anyone with "investable assets" would be to:

1)  Keep debt levels very low

2)  Diversify!  That includes gold and Bitcoin.

I don't mean to take away from your effort, this is a great post, you've obviously put some thought into it, however your theory is fundamentally flawed. It looks great on paper but in practice the system it would give rise to wouldn't be any different from the current one.
You start with the assumption that there is something wrong with the current system and then proceed to identify the faulty element(s). The problem with this is that you're viewing the whole thing in God mode. By that I mean that you've taken yourself out of the picture, you're looking at everything with a critical eye (admittedly with good intentions). While making yourself the exception (perhaps unintentionally?).
The ones you blame are but reflections of yourself, although it is hard to see this if you're caught up in trivialities like wealth and power right from the start.
An honest 'system' is impossible to achieve simply because honesty is not a trait of human nature. It doesn't matter how much you twist and turn, how much you theorize and improve upon your theories, you will always end up at square one. Even if you decentralized power, everything would still remain the same.
But perhaps your goal is only to obtain a meatier/fairer slice of power?

It is a very long post and you have put a good effort in putting your ideas into words and express it in a very clearly.

But I'll be not going to make a summary of your post but instead focus on the deceiving side of the banking system. Though I do not agree to all of your concepts but I agree with you that banks are making money out of air.

The author was right to point out the deception and the government has placed into us through the years.

Banks will give out loans using my deposit and give it to you through loans. After which you will pay it with high interest. They earn a big amount from the interest and they will give you only a very small profit to your deposit. 99.99% percent of the net was consumed by them while the owners received a very small amount. It is unfair, it is usurage, and it is evil. Banks are evil

Good question.

Certainly, none of us should be relied on to be honest at all times, and especially when a lot of money is at stake.  But the whole point of democracy, free markets, due process, and other ideals of the Enlightenment is surely to make it so we *don't* have to rely on people being honest, especially at the top, as much as possible.  I'm suggesting that we add managing money to the list of prohibitions against the state.

But it does seem you might have a deeper point as well...  If so please let me know.  There's also the 'imperialist' argument, that if one government refuses to inflate financial assets, it will be replaced by one who will, whether from inside or outside the country.  Would that fit into your view too?

Thank you!  I look forward to reading it.


If a debt goes on and on, its value becomes dependent on believing that other holders of the asset also believe they can redeem the debt for liquid assets any time.  This reliance on 2nd, 3rd, and 4th, etc. guessing is a characteristic of a bubble.  Bubbles can last a long time, yes, but you never know when it pops.  A public debt bubble is especially dependent on political strength -- not the sort that got Trump nominated!  The central bank is not legally bound to rescue public debt, and a large number of factors can be problematic for the bubble.


The key issue for me is not what form money takes.  I would want the market to work it out.  Who knows, in an ideal world most 'money' might be some kind of credit or derivative.  The key problem is that, when the state issues money, the power and the inherent incentives of such a system will lead to destructiveness of all kinds.  When private parties issue financial assets, no one needs to trust them (assuming there is no direct or indirect state support of any kind,) and that's the only way to build a healthy system from the start.

If you've ever listened to socialist bureaucrats, you'll have heard a lot of talk about how things 'should' be, and of course, the implication is that they should have the power to do this or that job.


There is the natural risk that comes from investment or any other activity with uncertainty, and there is also the risk that comes from state interference and distortion of the capital markets.  The latter is the only preventable factor.


Absolutely, diversify, and not put all your bets on gold and Bitcoin either!

...

BobK71

It's going to take some time to explore your ideas in this thread in detail, so I think I will explore them piecemeal.

*   *   *

I will start with "Parasitocracy", that great term you brought here.  Most awake observers would agree to at least some degree that those who hold the power (or who are The Elite, those who are very rich, etc.) are always gaming the system so they can make even MOAR.  Or get moar power for themselves.  This has been going on for millennia, and I don't think it is necessary to bring further proof to this discussion, it has been proven "enough".

Without going too deep into the weeds, there are many players with many agendas.  Banksters want loose rules (no Glass-Steagal), and moar (printed or electronic) money.  [Though many banks seem to be hurting from negative rates, but, I don't want to get lost in the weeds...]  Banksters also get Bailouts (2008) and look like they will be protected by Bail-ins if/when the time comes (IMO, the time will come).

Also, again just raising the topic and not wanting to explore the weed-infested fringes, there are many types of parasitism and levels (intensities).  The Clintons, for example, provide a fascinating set of parasitical behavior: Not only do they want moar, they want moar of almost everything!  The Clinton Foundation (just today coming under an IRS investigation) has made them rich, with apparently a low 10% of all contributions going to the needy, the rest going to them and cronies...  [Weed alert], yet another facet here is why so many who are already very wealthy need moar and moar and moar.  Once someone is worth, say, $10,000,000 (net of liabilities) why does anyone need yet moar?  At least why do they want moar to a degree that they would behave in an illegal way or scandalously?  Sociopaths behave like that.  Easy-to-digest references, for those interested, would include the two recent movies ("Hillary's America" by Dinesh D'Souza and the remarkable "Clinton Cash" that I saw at Breitbart) showing very disturbing and almost completely illegal behavior by the Clintons.

Other parasites meriting investigation and probably punishment would be sleazy scumbags like Jon Corzine, a nexus of greed and political douchebaggery.  Not one significant participant in the Financial Crisis (2008 - ?) has been put in jail.  Corzine was also Governor of New Jersey...  Power and money.

Impunity.  A word we will likely see more and more.  And it will eventually anger the American people.

*   *   *

I have mentioned some of my views on diversification in other threads.  I agree about not HODLING too many (net) assets in gold or Bitcoin.  My rule of thumb (and this is just me) has been perhaps 10% in gold (or even diversified into other PMs) and 1% into BTC.  Of course, this suggestion would be for someone who has enough assets to more than cover their life's expenses (etc.).

In my case, my family's holdings are about 10% in gold and some other PMs (not paper gold), and about 0.5% in BTC.  I am happy enough to HODL some BTC as I think it is potentially a great speculation.

Gold will protect the owner from .gov predations and carry wealth forward.

But that still leaves traditional assets.  As I think some kind of financial disaster is very possible, I think that every thinking person should cover the downside with a holding of gold, and if "knowledgeable enough" (and interested), then HODLING BTC is great.  But traditional assets are OK with me because of proven historical value.  Everyone should hold some traditional assets because we may not have a financial disaster...

Stocks are good, because of their traditional growth that has been higher than most other investments (so HODL of up to some 25% in stocks if you are wealthy).

Bonds are not so good now, but have been OK for those through history needing income.  There are lots of types of bonds and other income-producing investments of various kinds and qualities.  

Real estate apparently has made more Americans wealthy than any other investment (inc. technology and energy).  Real estate is priced high now...  Holding real estate via too much borrowed money is dangerous!

"Alternative investments" (which depending on definition may include gold) are OK up to (say) 5% of new wealth according to many money managers.  Other alternative investments include fine art, hedge funds, foreign investments, etc.

What balance would constitute a diversified (diversified enough) portfolio?  That depends on each person's own situation, knowledge, and comfort levels (eg with risk).

In my opinion, financial safety would include all sorts of legitimate investments, and a good balance (not too concentrated into any one investment) is most appropriate.



(Edited various times)

OROBTC, thank you for your thoughtful remarks.  It's nice to be taken seriously!

I would agree that the top rung people have sought to take advantage of their power, and pass their privilege to their offspring, for millennia.  I see part of the problem being that we must have law and order, so we have to grant a monopoly on violence to some entity.  And once mortal humans have power...  But the trend of modern history is to constrain the use of this power further and further.  (Hegel said the march of history is towards more freedom.)  I'm hoping the next step of Enlightenment will be the breaking of the chains of state money.

The only way really to attain more freedom is more public awareness, and the Internet will be helpful.  No less than elite mouthpiece David Brooks has openly complained about the effectiveness of online forums!

There is also a distinction between older leveraging of power and the monetary-financial variety.  In the old days, you might have murdered your way to the throne, but once there, you generally wanted peace and justice throughout your realm, even if you took your relatively bigger share of the spoils.  The unique thing about abuse by financial inflation is that you are incentivized to destabilize the very system that you rely on for support, and that's why every single dominant modern global empire (Spain, the Netherlands, and Britain) has collapsed from issuing too many financial assets.  This is another cause for optimism, in the long run.

More later...

Though here's the thing...  it's one thing to think (and even 'know') the system is rigged, but it's important to understand exactly how.

Without knowing how, people tend to demand solutions, like electing a socialist or a Trump, which will likely make things worse.

The powers that be have a narrative (propagated by the educational system and conventional media) that we in the West live under true democracy and free markets.  So those who 'have' deserve everything they get, because others either voted for them or voluntarily bought what they have to offer.

It's imperative to destroy this myth by phrasing the problem in a succinct but rigorous fashion.  Otherwise, the prevailing view will be that free markets aren't working, so let's give even more power to the elites.

Mmm-hmm.  But, defining how the system is rigged is rather more difficult than it might seem.  Part of the problem might be a semantic issue: "Rigged", what exactly does that mean?  I like the term "narrative" that seems to have gotten popular say a year ago, and it seems to describe the propaganda that we all must bear.  But, I agree, there is a "consensus reality" that seems to be shared by The Elite and the MSM (Mainstream Media).

This go 'round re president is not very promising.  BOTH will likely spend lots & lots of money, that is one of a few shared positions (but spend on different things).

I will leave the words "democracy" and "representative republic" alone, further discussion of those two might resolve your comment re democracy.

However, "free markets" are an ideal, it could be argued that on-and-off the USA has come pretty close.  Clearly we are not very close to the ideal now.  And both Trump and $hillary (ahh, whom would I be for?) would hinder free market activity, the former by his opposition to the TPP (which may be a bad treaty, especially if that is the one that is secret).  Hyena Rodent is a proven liar, and has been for 30 years.  Trump would be a High Risk President, who might run us off the rails with a bad decision or two...

As a general rule, the more libertarian, the better.  Fewer restrictions on our economic and political freedoms, the better.  The contrary (bigger government, concentration of power, etc.), the worse.

I still the think the term "parasitocracy" that you introduced here is an excellent one-word summary of many flaws in our system.

*   *   *

Bitcoin's price crash today (which I just read about, "Mi Reina" and I were out running errands) is relevant here.  BTC is reasonably beyond easy control by The Establishment.  And so takes another black eye.  I do feel a little better having spent some BTC for gold when BTC was at $690 and $660.  Maybe the time has come to buy again?

You know, I always thought that BTC's price is recently too stable and smooth over long stretches of time.  Call me paranoid, but if the authorities suppress gold, I'm suspecting they're 'managing' BTC too.  It has the potential to be something that state currencies can lean on, when they need support, and I think that is why the US is currently embracing it.


One of my main issues with politics today is gerrymandering (oops, I mean 'redistricting') of Congressional seats.  Another is the close relationship between mainstream journalists and powerful office-holders who are their sources.  The quip-pro-quo is that, you print what I want to see aired in public, and don't print what I don't want aired, and I'll give you good stories from the inside from time to time.  The reporting has gotten so uniform and bland (and especially not touching any land mines that might blow up the imperial asset bubble,) that I am turning to ZeroHedge as my main source of news.


That question was what I tried to address in the original posting, and I would of course welcome debate on the points I raised.  My main idea was that the market power of a big entity (the state) is being used to distort markets to favor the top politicians and their banking allies.  While leveraging the market power of size happens daily in the private sector, and probably has no easy cure, when the state does it, the problem is of a different scale altogether, partly because of the legal and military tools available to the state for supporting its asset bubbles.

And I understand that the market 'feels' free to 99% of the people.  The competition between Four Seasons and Ritz Carlton is real.  But a competitive economy is not necessarily a free-market economy.  The size of the luxury hotel business comes from demand that is distorted from day one by monetary and financial manipulation at central banks and governments.  So when asset bubbles crash, the loss of jobs and wealth won't have been caused by free markets either.

Thank you.  But think about it... why are banks allowed to 'make money out of air?'

Most people will think it's because bankers 'contribute' to politicians.  A much larger and more fundamental force at work is that banks provide support for the public debt issued by top politicians, by buying it and treating it as money.  As long as bank assets hold their values in the 'market,' public debt will hold its value.

The world is run by an alliance between the political and financial elites, with the central bank as the stabilizer of the alliance.

Your analysis is convincing. The symbiosis between banks and governments was significantly tightened after the 2008 Lehmann collapse. Now debt is bought indirectly or even directly by the central banks, because there is no sufficient demand for it in the public market. So apparently some market actors understand what's going on here. Which brings me to my small disagreement with your assessment: I don't think that the statement "it doesn't matter if you understand it, you still must gamble" is correct. Instead, I think that all market actors do always gamble, but the probability of a positive outcome is much higher if you are well informed.

This holds true for banks and the average Joe in the same way. If you know that fiat money, bonds, and bank deposits are a gigantic debt-fueled scam, you can buy assets (like precious metals and Bitcoin) that will protect you from the system's inevitable downfall. Of course that only holds true on an individual level - it is impossible to save everyone. On the other hand it is somehow fair, because the less ignorant you are the better your chance of escaping the disaster.

ya.ya.yo!

...

Corruption is so deeply embedded in many parts of our system.  That is one reason I looked into Bitcoin, flawed as it is (14% at an "BTM" for example, few spending outlets, etc.).

Slowly, some of this corruption is becoming more visible.  I am on vacation now bought some BTC at a BTM, the FIRST BTM) in Vancouver, no ID needed...  That is a small strike at the parasites.

A worry mentioned above is what happens when things go too far.  The totalitarian hammer comes down.  We may get to see that in Europe re immigrants.  I do NOT see how the Parasitocracy ends comfortably for us, at least in America.  There are too many beneficiaries of the parasitical/corrupt system we have now to be easily disentangled.

At this point in the financial inflation cycle, the elites must try to keep what remains of the bubble afloat.  This just means more financial stimulus and/or repression (e.g. with zero interest rates and printing money to buy Treasuries), which will increase the distortions and malinvestments (not to mention adding to the incentives for some among the elites to destabilize the system) and set us up for a bigger crash down the road.


I absolutely agree that we have better chances, the more we understand the system.  What I was referring to, however, was the fundamental feature of the system, that everyone must gamble with significant risks, most of the time.  The elites can't really afford to allow even a few people to win so predictably that more and more people start taking notice.  (The biggest act of financial repression, so far, IMO is still forcing gold and silver to have a return of zero under the metallic standards.)

There is just no way to say, I want to be left alone; I only want to preserve the value I have earned and retire safely.

Now apologists for the system (and especially the professional economists) are going to come back at you by saying, money in *any* form is merely a claim on future real wealth.  And the future is uncertain no matter what, so what the claim will buy you is always uncertain.

While this is true, we must also acknowledge that state-driven financial inflation has drastically worsened the natural instability.  When you force people to spend and lend by eating away their savings automatically, you can't be surprised that much of the spending and investment will be frivolous or wasted.  When demand collapses, everyone's wealth will shrink.

Now that we know the government is controlling fiat to its own advantage, what is the way forward?

Even if the whole world start spending bitcoins, the elites can still create a controlled inflation.

Wow,pretty long post.You have to write a book about this topic.

The post is nice,but you sound a little bit like a communist. ;D Just kidding.

Elites really use the governments to gain more power and more profits.This isn`t a secret.

"Parasitocracy" is a nice term by the way, i like it. :)

Totalitarianism is always a worry, but a fundamental force that has been working in our favor is that modern empires (as opposed to pre-modern ones) must use a combination of hard and soft power to keep their empires alive.

If you need people to, essentially, trust in your debt, you have to appear to respect classical liberal values and institutions, and to keep your promises.

Even though promise-breaking sits at the heart of the system, most people don't know that.  In fact, the imperial elites have always been allying themselves with, shall we say, less classically liberal rulers around the world (helping keep them in power in return for their states' support for imperial assets,) but will also expose the lesser rulers' even dirtier politics and finances to the public, at the right times.  This is all part of the stage management to portray the imperial center as a desirable place to invest.

The important thing is that the imperial system mechanically requires investor confidence -- it couldn't become a full military dictatorship if it wanted to.  Its delicate task is always to maintain a facade but profit from a very different reality.

As for the end game, I'm not sure if you read my other thread about the Spanish Inquisition.  What the imperial elites want is a smooth transition of power to the next global empire, populated by a people who have yet to experience their economic explosion, and keeping that country friendly to the existing order, so the old empire can be eased into gradual decline.  This transition has been achieved by the Dutch and British empires, and I'm sure is the holy grail of the American elites today.

I think I just had an epiphany. This is what bitcoiners have been saying all along! If you want to disrupt the banks then do not make deposits to them. What you should do is "deposit" them where you have total control of your money! Buy BTC. Well it is not really "buying", what you are actually doing is converting fiat to BTC. So do it now and encourage the people around you to do it too. Enough with the BS of the banks.

Well, here is another way to look at the matter, Wind_FURY.  If you just hold on to your CA$H, not depositing it in the bank nor buying Bitcoin, you accomplish the same main purpose -- keeping your money out of the bank.  BTC does have certain advantages (and disadvantages) that make it a different asset, IMO.

The same could be said for gold.  Gold does have one other feature, namely that once you have receive your gold, you already have been paid!  That's not really true with US$, in that you still must spend them in order to get something you want.  If you want gold, then any gold you own is free of "counterparty risk" (other than thievery).  Buying gold also keeps your money out of the bank.

IMO there really is no way around it -- people have to wake up and demand that the theft stop.

Thanks.  I do have to improve my style a bit!

Politicians should be put on minimum wage.


Sadly, most people nowadays are stubborn and misinformed about many things.

And they also think 'conspiracy' is synonymous to 'batshit crazy theory'. While some conspiracy theories are retarded, doesn't mean all conspiracy theories are made up (or at least, not entirely untrue).

People think they're doing fine. But they're not fine. It's like the frog in hot water, that's turned a few degrees hotter very gradually, until it eventually boils.

True, it's not a secret.  While it's one thing to know the system is manipulated, the knowledge is useful only if we understand precisely how it's manipulated.  That is the only way to undo the manipulation without ending up with something even worse than before (such as socialism or fascism, etc.)

That was what I tried to accomplish.

This points to why the elites almost can't stand the current state of affairs.

The way the system was designed, bank interest was always significantly positive (and of course inflation was even higher,) so people were pushed to put money in the bank while the system was stable (and the state would bail out some banks, provide deposit insurance, etc. to prop up public confidence in the banks.)

With bank interest at zero, the whole scheme is not working as designed.  The longer this lasts, the more chance of a financial cataclysm that will further expose the system to public opinion.

There's one big problem with the public waking up. That is, they don't want to because that would require them to start taking responsibility themselves.Most of the people I've talked to simply don't want to do it; whether it was an option within the broken system that would allow them to still ignore much of the responsibility or not. I don't think many are going to wake up until something happens and they're forced to, However, by then, it will be too late and it will take a lot more effort to get out of the hole they find themselves in.

I should know, I found myself in such a hole after telling the "wrong" groups of people where to go, and it seems I'm still a very long way from getting out of it.

The interesting thing here is that all the information and knowledge are freely available.  All you have to do is connect the dots.

The way I connected the dots could theoretically be problematic, but this has gone through a lot of debate online with knowledgeable experts and insiders (who don't hesitate to pounce with their expertise!) and so I'm fairly confident.

My sense is that quite a few of the top people know, but won't talk about it on their own.

If you're referring to taking responsibility for your life under a true market economy, all I can say is, you can't force people to do anything -- all you can do is vote for a system with the right incentives (which also, BTW, protect people who do live responsibly.)

If you're referring to taking the civic responsibility to protect the public against powerful insiders, having state-free money would precisely make it unnecessary to keep track of what the elites are up to, every minute.  I'm convinced that, if there is any involvement with money by the state, the elites will eventually make things complicated enough that the public can't figure out what they're up to, regardless of how educated the public are, and what system we start with.

Well yes but the problem with that is the storing of cash and/or gold. But let us talk about gold for this purpose because paper money is nothing more like an IOU that is entrusted banks promising us that it has the said value.

But anyway back to gold. As you said gold is free from counterparty risk but how are you going to store it? You also cannot carry it around with you all the time. This is where the genius of satoshi comes in. Thru technology he knew he can create a new asset that is free of counter party risk, totally controlled by the user and the transactions can also be verified by the users themselves.

If you take away the management of money away from the state, who do you task to do this? In any organization, private or public, corruption and theft are present. We are dealing with human greed and a lust for power and control. Bitcoin kind of solve that problem with the protocol restrictions and the consensus and public participation, but the developers in charge is still the weak points. < These people can still be bribed and influenced >

What solution are you putting on the table to take out the human element out of this? 

Money should be treated as any other commodity, whose value is totally determined by the marketplace.  This regime has already been tested with great success during the Italian Renaissance and the Scottish 'free banking' era (not due to an enlightened public but due to accidents of geopolitics.)

This is not necessarily (and probably won't be, thankfully) a return to 'hard' money.  Savers could have great confidence in a script I issue in my garage, provided that whatever venture backs that script is determined to be a good bet by the market.  When capital's value and confidence is determined by state-free supply and demand, capital tends to flow in productive directions and savings tend to be safe.

With the right incentives, banking can play its role as financial innovator and a great engine of growth, without destabilizing the economy.

It's only modern economists who tell us money has to be managed by some central authority.  (The same economists who unanimously endorsed the gold standard in its day, and unanimously condemn it today -- both times saying just what the elites want them to.)

It is true that we still won't get total honesty.  Bitcoin has money 'stolen' from 'hacked' exchanges, but if you leave most of your savings on an exchange, you probably should lose it to learn a life lesson!  We can't guarantee honesty, but we can set up the right incentives, which will go a long way.

In the big picture, it's quite possible what the public lack is simply a kind of rough understanding.

In a more philosophical sense, it remains to be seen whether a population not well versed in the conceptual tools required by monetary and financial thinking can ultimately hold to account an elite determined to skim off the cream of their labor and destabilize everything in life.  A blanket rule that imposes simplicity might work, but at this philosophical level all we have are opinions, and nobody knows.  So I'd say let's give it a try, and a really good try.  If we decide to give up, on the other hand, we have to be very, very careful to examine our motivation, in case it's really a form of expedience (not necessarily personal, but possibly over short-term issues in the economy.)

BTW, one of the funniest episodes of modern finance was during the South Seas bubble, not long after the founding of the Bank of England.  Money flowed into all kinds of equities (driven indirectly by the state's power to inflate debt), including one venture where investors were explicitly told they would not know what they were getting into, just 'an endeavor of great advantage.'

My apologies for the late reply, I lost track of this thread and just discovered the link "Show new replies to your posts" at the top.

In a way, I was actually talking about both. If the people I have discussed these types of things with are any indication, the majority of people just don't want to take responsibility for their lives as it is easier to be taken by a sweet lie than to deal with the truth. As for voting, I'm not sure that works any more when the only choices you are given are curry with shit in it, or shit with curry in it.

As for dealing with powerful insiders, or in my case even people who know how to work a broke system, you would be surprised how much your quality of life can be damaged because they were the wrong person to tell what they could go do with their self. That's exactly what got me interested in state-free money.

No worries!

I believe a lot of your issue with responsibility is par for the course for imperial decline.  Over the decades, the system has 'bribed' various constituencies, including most of the Western electorate, into accepting it.  One of the major type of bribes is unearned wealth, in the form of generous safety nets, good jobs from economic and financial distortions, etc.  In a sense, these people believe in sweet lies because they actually lived them for a while.  Eventually, of course, all the chickens come home to roost (and they tend all to come at the same time!)

We are very close to, if not already at, such a time.  The financial deception at the heart of the system has forced the elites to accept Chinese currency manipulation over the last two decades in order to effect the needed artificial support for Western-issued money and other assets.  This has basically emptied out good Western middle class jobs and is the cause of the rise of political extremism as well as financial instability.

I am sorry, but I can't seem to understand your comment about powerful insiders.

...

The Parasitocracy also includes (IMO) a large class of liars and grifters.  TPTB now claim to be "looking out for us" when, of course, they are merely looking after themselves.  This has been going on a long time here in the USA, a convenient starting point for this line of thought would be President Andrew Jackson.  Jackson claimed to be a friend of the Native Americans, that he was looking after them like a father, when he was stealing their lands for the benefit of himself and his land-speculating cronies...

Jackson was the real founder of the Democrat Party.  The D-Team claims to speak for the poor, especially African-Americans, while their plight has never improved.  Not even after 7+ years of our first African-American president, and Obama had complete control of Congress for a few years.

Reference (and highly recommended): Hillary's America (Dinesh D'Souza)

I don't think any modern politician has a clean past (well, maybe a few do, like Jimmy Carter -- but then no one would work with him.)

Since Andrew Jackson caused the central bank to be buried for seven decades, I wouldn't be surprised if most of his negative press is payback from its advocates.

The slogan is always public good, while the reality is always a very personal 'good!'

Counterparty risk is the famous problem, but the real problem is that paper issued by the elites of the state-bank alliance is guaranteed to be debased over the long term precisely because these elites have the power to prop up its value for a while.  The problem is the incentives for these people to abuse their power.

In a truly free market, counterparty risk would be properly priced into the asset's value, so you get what you pay for.

Unfortunately, in today's world any asset with counterparty risk is directly or indirectly propped up by the elites with state power, and is over-valued, and that's the only reason why we're forced to hide under assets with no counterparty risk.

Well, I guess this is the first post-Trump comment...

Speaking of Trump, perhaps my dire warnings of 'political extremism' has been outdone by reality!

...

I'm in Russia now (St Pete via cruise ship with lousy wifi).

Things here are at least a tad better than described by our Fake News Media, but a one day visit means little (other than my stint as a desk-jockey Cold War participant decades ago when they were the USSR).

Putin is not a lovable guy, but he has huge support here, and America would be wise to make deals, good deals, with him.  The sanctions and Russia-bashing are stupid beyond words.  We can do business with this man.

BTW, St Pete is the only cruise port I have EVER visited where you had to go through a passport control, even on a shore excursion.  But, beyond question Russia <> USSR.


EDIT: Putin is reputed to be the richest man in the world (more than Gates and Buffett combined).  He is a parasite too, few clean hands among people who claw their way to the top of any big organization.

Nice to hear you're putting the Bitcoin rise to good use!  Was in St. Pete a long time ago -- never thought you could take a cruise ship ('Aurora'?) there...

It's not surprising... From Putin, to Maduro (Venezuela), to Saddam, to all the European leaders, the system ensures each country is governed even worse than the US in terms of political and economic freedoms.  So voila, the USA is the best country!  It's money and debt are the most respected!

The logic is quite simple -- either a country toes the imperial line, or not.  Regardless of what kind of leader or system it has, a country that toes the imperial line will end up with more financial inflation and/or political corruption than the US.  A country that doesn't toe the line will be attacked to one degree or another by the media, put under pressure by the dominant dollar system, and eventually, its regime will surrender and/or collapse.  When the standoff is sharp and prolonged, even if we have to get a war started (e.g. Syria), we have to send the message.

But I'm sure we view the civilian collateral damage with deep regret.

Royal Caribbean, Princess, Viking and Celebrity all call at St P.  Not in winter though.

Russia will have few problems with any sanctions.  They are almost self-contained.  To a degree they are a "one trick pony" (oil and gas price exports), but they have a great military-industrial complex too.

If you like art, the Hermitage is really something, one of the best museums in the world.

I am surprised that a cruise ship would have poor WiFi in 2017 given how important it is to everyone these days.

Enjoy your cruise, man! I have never been on one, but hope to someday.

The higher Bitcoin goes, the more likely Viking!

One of the staples of the modern global state-bank alliance (and I suppose you could call it 'progress' in a certain sense) is this slowness and gradualness of the theft.  A good part of the propaganda used to inflate the elites' assets is actually true.  The grandeur of empire only becomes more illusory over time.

Among empires, the modern state-bank alliance is unique in mixing in a lot of soft power.  'Allying' with Bitcoin, 'allying' with the ideas of freedom and democracy, etc. are all necessary in its quest to leverage a relatively small base of hard power up to global scale.

...

Only slightly O/T are all of the rumors about 3000 + sealed indictments handed down over the past few days (apparently normally it's just a few hundred).  Rumor has it that most involve Clintons / Obama / DNC / Debbie W-S / etc.

But, as I just mentioned earlier today at ZH, it seems too much like a fever dream to think the Clintons are going to get the justice they deserve.

However, perhaps Sessions and Trump are really smart old foxes..., laying low, waiting for the right moment to strike his enemies, and he has MANY enemies there in The Swamp.

The Swamp would roughly equal the Parasitocracy.  Maybe a little Kakistrocracy too (rule by the very worst people IIUC).

That's news to me...  3000+ indictments?

Unfortunately, we could hang every last member of the Elites, and the System would come back to life.  It is nurtured the simple fact that most people don't understand the manipulation of the values money and assets with state power, and its true effects.

Where there is demand (ie the public crying out 'Fck me, just make it complicated enough!') the 'supply' will always come from somewhere!

I have to bump this old thread because it surely deserves to be read my all the new people who have come on the forum lately and who for sure haven't read it. It is really Worth reading and discussing.